GW/WH40K modelling/gaming discussion thread

[Azazal]

Elheru, do you have any army list you are considering, we could probably critique it for you.

Fraid not. I totaled up my armament for the squad and it came up to something ridiculous like 130 points...

At this point I'm just getting different units and trying to get the hang of painting. I'm thinking a squad of Fire Warriors next... or maybe Eldar Guardians... depends on which one's cheaper

I know this sounds silly, but do you have the 40K 4th ed rule book?

If not, try and pick it up, there is a section called KILLTEAM, basiclly you play a squad of commandos on a specific mission. Really easy and CHEAP way to get the hang of 40K. You just feild any where from 50 to 10 or so guys. Plus you don't feel guilty saying you have a killteam for each army, versus saying you have 2000+ plus for each army out there. (Hey stop looking at me... )

[Lazarus]

Something worth noting about Killteam though is that you need a terrain heavy board to make it work properly, preferably urban or pre-made. I've played a game of Killteam before on a standard game board and it sucked ass, especially considering one side was Guard and could just form up in a wall.

Unlucky with the game there Hellion, Chaos is a bitch, especially with Greater Daemons. It makes you want to throw down your dice in disgust when shit like a lone marine shooting a krak at your Land Raider rolls triple six...happened to me once. Wasn't happy.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I'm thinking of modeling a squad of scout marines only for Kill team games....

including things like one of them with a spool of painted dental floss to use as a garrote, a sniper (crouched), a guy with lots of explosives/grenades, and various other bits. not looking like your normal scouts but oh well...

[Dark Hellion]

It wasn't bad luck really, I made 3 obscenely major play mistakes in one turn. I put myself in a position where I needed above average rolls to even eek out a win, whereas at the beginning of that turn all I needed to do was simply not move and just shoot and I would have had a massacre win. I basically threw away a third of my army to kill 2 marines and the Greater Daemon. It was utterly retarded.

[Utsanomiko]

Uts, you and me should play a game after we both get our armies done. You only live like 90 minutes away, and an SD.net Grudgematch would be pretty damn funny.

I dunno, a three hour roundtrip just to see how many powerfists you can hide in your beard deosn't sound so fly. you could probably fit even more in if you went with Flesh Tearers.

Although it could be fun just as documented a casual game. I got some Sergeants and another missile launcher Marine done Wednesday night, but I still need to do their Chapter emblems and name plates, not to mention the banners. I was working Thursday and today and spent Friday assembling Assault Marines, so here they are finally:



Check out the chapter icons I sculpted; I intend to do the same for any veterans/Honor Guard, along with sculpted kneepads. Here's the backsides of two of them:


That'll give me enough for three small Tac squads and a light Dev squad once I get three heavy weapon guys in the mail and built. I should post the Assault Marines I've put together once I prime them. I repositioned and pinned the arms of half of them into various new poses, while I'll do a bit more dynamically once I start on the Death Company.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Picked up a box of Sword Brethren (as well as the official Quiz Book and an Emperor's Children lord). They are beefy models, that's for sure, unfortunately they're 1-2 piece pewters and nigh-impossible to convert. Only 3 pistols and 1 CCW are easily messed with, at the wrist. At least I shouldn't need to convert much (that's why I got them, after all) as they already fit with my Chapter's style pretty well.

[Lord Revan]

This maybe a bit stupid questions, but what's the best equilevant for this DoW:WA SM army in the tabletop game (chapter is the Blood Ravens)?

1 fully upgraded Force Commander
1 fully upgraded Librarian
1 Chaplain
1 Scout squad (4 marines) with 2 sniper rifles and 2 plasma guns
2 "command style" marine squads (1 sergeant with power fist and plasma pistol, 2 marines with heavy Bolters, 2 marines with Plasma Guns, 1 marine with flamer and 3 marines with standard bolters)(note that the force commander and librarian are normally attached to these squads)
2 "normal style" squads (1 sergeant with power fist and plasma Pistol, 2 marines with heavy Bolters, 2 Marines with missile launchers, 1 marine with plasma gun and 3 marines with standard bolters)
2 Terminator squads (2 assault cannons per squad)
2 Dreadnoughts (with the assault cannon upgrade)
2 Predator Annihilator
1 Land Raider

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

If you want to pull it right out of DoW...

1 commander (Master) with Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol
1 Librarian (Epistolary) with Force Weapon and Plasma Pistol
1 Chaplain (Master of Sanctity or Reclusiarch) with Plasma Pistol

That Scout squad is illegal: 5-10 Scouts, Bolter or Bolt Pistol/Close combat weapon, can upgrade all to sniper, can upgrade one to heavy bolter or missile launcher.

Tac Squads are illegal: 5-10 Marines, one can upgrade to flamer/melta/plasma, one can upgrade to missile/heavy bolter/multimelta/plasmacannon. The "command" squads can be bought as proper Command Squads however for their respective commanders.

5-10 Terminators per squad. Note that they can be upgraded with chainfists as well.

You're limited to three Elite choices, so you'll have to drop one Termie squad or one Dreadnought, but otherwise that's fine.

2 Pred Annihilators, fine.

Land Raider, again fine.

[Utsanomiko]

It's only a little bit stupid in the sense that WH40k uses a Force Organization Chart for min/max number of squads than the PC game, and as mentioned before a Marine squad typically has one heavy weapon (heavy bolter, lascannon, missile launcher, multi-melta) and one special weapon choice (plasmagun, meltagun, flamer).

Anyway, the FO chart is 1-2 HQ (commanders, chaps, librarians and their optional command squads/horo guard), 0-3 Elites (Dreadnoughts, Terminatiors, Veterans, etc), 2-6 Troops (Scouts and Tac squads), 0-3 Assault (Assault Marines, Bikes, Speeders), and 0-3 Heavy Support (Devestator Squads, tanks). Every squad's minimum size is 4 Marines plus Sergeant (except Terminator Command in order to allow a leader in term armor to take a squad and still fit in a Land Raider).

So two leaders at about 140-160 points each should suffice, and their command squads can be equipped as:

Command Squad, 196 points
-Veteran Sergeant (30) with Power Fist (15) and Plasma pistol (15)
-8 Marines (120), with 1 Plasma Gun (10), Flamer (6)

Command Squads actually can take two heavy and/or special weapons, but I'd leave the heavies for Tac/Dev squads, as they prevent moving in the same turn and are more costly in Command squads anyway. I'd also swap the plasmagun for a melta gun, and the bolters for bolt pistols + chainswords, since a squad this size is best for moving/assault and rapid fire weapons prevent assaults when fired in a turn.

Tactical Squad, 195 points
-Veteran Sergeant (30) with Power Fist (15) and Plasma pistol (15)
-8 Marines (120), with 1 Heavy Bolter (5), Plasma Gun (10)

Again, one heavy, one special weapon. Upgrading the sergeant to a Vet is required to give him access to armory weapons, but it really doesn't need to be done unless you plan on doing a lot of assaulting with the squad. Same goes for upping the squad size to 9-10; good for piling into a melee, bad if you're standing out of rapid fire bolter range while the Missile Launcher Marine fires at vehicles invulerable to bolter fire.

If you want up to 4 heavies on one squad, use a Devestator squad. Here's here's a decent loadout for a squad versus heavy troops and light vehicles:

Devestator Squad, 160 points
-Sergeant with 5 Marines (90), with 2 Missile Launchers (40), 2 Heavy Bolters (30)
(a lot of people prefer x4 missile launchers for the extra anti-armor punch, but VS troops 2 heavy bolters will do more damage and fire 6 shots, and it's hard to cover 6 troops with two blast templates unless they're moving really close together)

Five Scouts would cost 65 points. There's no plasma gun option, but they can take an m launcher or h bolter, and any of them can have a sniper rifle for 5 points each. So let's give them 3 rifles and a missile launcher, putting the unit cost at 95 points.

A squad of 5-10 Terminators cost 40 points each and can include up to two Assault Cannons for 20 points each. So two squads for 500 points should be reasonable.

With Two Terminator squads, you'd only have one Elite slot for a Dreadnought. They're 105 points and come with an assault cannon as standard (it's only chiefly the Blood Angels-related Chapters and their Furioso Dreads that can have two close-combat arms. Under some rules the Dark Angels Chapters can have Mortis-pattern Dreads with two cannons or missile pods). The cannon can be upgraded to a Lascannor or multi-meta, and the combat arm can be replaced with a missile launcher pod.

A Predator with all lascannons would be about 150 points and a Land Rader 250 points.

So you're looking at about 1900 points for that whole force.

[Lord Revan]

what would the cost be if I swaped 1 predator for a anti-tank geared devastator squad (acording to the GW's uk website the Blood Ravens suffer from general lack of mechanised units)?

[Keevan_Colton]

what would the cost be if I swaped 1 predator for a anti-tank geared devastator squad (acording to the GW's uk website the Blood Ravens suffer from general lack of mechanised units)?

The Blood Ravens have some special rules in the latest codex:

See but dont be Seen, their Tactical and Devestator squads can infiltrate
Trust your battle brothers, they can use their bolters as bolt pistols in close combat.
Flesh over Steel, they cant have predator anhilators, and can only have one predator, land raider, whirlwind or vindicator.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Admittedly, I've never really paid much attention to SM army lists, but how long have Dreadnaughts been Elite choices? I always thought they were Heavy Support, and that there was some chapter that allowed them to be taken as Elite as well, but that wasn't standard.
Have they been changed, or am I just mis-remembering?

[Keevan_Colton]

Admittedly, I've never really paid much attention to SM army lists, but how long have Dreadnaughts been Elite choices? I always thought they were Heavy Support, and that there was some chapter that allowed them to be taken as Elite as well, but that wasn't standard.
Have they been changed, or am I just mis-remembering?

No, it's the other way round, the trait lets you take them as heavy support as well. Taking them as elites is the standard way of it in the codex.

[Lord Revan]

what would the cost be if I swaped 1 predator for a anti-tank geared devastator squad (acording to the GW's uk website the Blood Ravens suffer from general lack of mechanised units)?

The Blood Ravens have some special rules in the latest codex:

See but dont be Seen, their Tactical and Devestator squads can infiltrate
Trust your battle brothers, they can use their bolters as bolt pistols in close combat.
Flesh over Steel, they cant have predator anhilators, and can only have one predator, land raider, whirlwind or vindicator.

so swap both predators for devastator squads with anti-tank gear

[Manus Celer Dei]

Admittedly, I've never really paid much attention to SM army lists, but how long have Dreadnaughts been Elite choices? I always thought they were Heavy Support, and that there was some chapter that allowed them to be taken as Elite as well, but that wasn't standard.
Have they been changed, or am I just mis-remembering?

No, it's the other way round, the trait lets you take them as heavy support as well. Taking them as elites is the standard way of it in the codex.

Ah, I see. I guess when you've not played 40K for about a year and a half and all you get confused about is an army you've never collected, you shouldn't be too worred

[Utsanomiko]

I forgot about the Blood Ravens Trait disadvantage.

If the Land Raider wasn't being fielded, you could either use a Pred Destructor with Autocannon and Lascannon sponsons for 125 points.

A 5-man Dev squad (75 points) can take Lascannons or (plasma cannons) for 35 points each and Missile Launchers for 20pts. Keep in mind such a squad would be much more vulnerable to light and and medium fire than a Predator, although not outright killable in one turn like a single lascannon can take out a tank (about 1/4 chance, totalling glancing and penetrating hit results). A good Plasmagun blast will definitely cripple the squad, though.

[The Yosemite Bear]

hmmm, I wonder could you model a first/second edition skyboard and call it a jumppack/wings?

[Utsanomiko]

Probably would fit better as a Bike movement-wise, although one would be hard-pressed to model the twin-linked bolters properly. Maybe dual-wield them, but the whole thing sounds silly enough as it is.

I went ahead and snapped a photo of my Assault Marines as currently assembled.


Mostly just need to pop on some accessories and modify the Veteran Sergeant's chest, left arm and add sculpted kneepads. The two on the far left will be my first Death Company Marines, painted up in white.

Evidently my order from Maelstrom games shipped two days ago: Codex Black Templars and BT Upgrade box, some greenstuff, two Lascannon Marines, and a Battle Sisters blister with assault weapons. Once it gets here in a week or so I'm going to pick up a bundle of bits and accessory sprues I want/need from GW Direct Order, including more Black Templars stuff (I realized I could get two full Crusader sprues for the price of the arms and chests I had in mind from eBay stores). That's currently including some power weapons and power claws for DarkPrimus, which I recall discussing with him that a 7-8-Marine Vet squad + two ~6-Marine Tac squads would be more useful and interesting than simply twenty Tatical Marines.

I've got a strong interest in picking up a box of Chaos Marines and Berzerkers, probably before I start and finish my Death Company and Honor Guard. Half of them I'd scavenge for choppy weapons, ornate bits, and archaic-style wargear (to spruce up my Veterans and leaders, as well as my Black Templars combat patrol), and leave the rest for whatever kill-team project I decide upon. The other ten or twleve I'll eventually convert into Chosen and Posessed Tzeentch sorcerors, later adding them to some Thousand Sons Marines as a moderately-sized points-heavy army. That should net me some good modeling experience for whenever I start on those custom-designed Imperial Guard (which I've tweaked the basic troop design a bit, with shoulderboards closer to the epaulette than simply armbands, and helmets less like pikelhaubes and more a mix of my artillery/grenadier helms and Rogue Trader guardsmen).

[Lazarus]

I've always play 1000 points so this may not apply to larger games, but I always stay a long way away from Land Raiders and Terminators. The former is just a massive target, and you can get the same effect for less points with a Predator Annihalator. As a transport you lose most of its ability to shoot, and due to its size it can get in the way. Tree dodging with a LR also means you can't shoot, which isn't a problem with a Rhino.

In my experience, SM Termies cost too much for what they do, and are too overrated. In comparison to GK Termies, they are only about half as good, and yet GK Termies only cost about 6 points more each. All I've ever seen them do is deep strike in, charge a squad, and get annihalated by a character and some form of retinue with power weapons before they can even strike back. If you want Termies, make use of the Allies rule, and use GK's. This can even fit into the Blood Raven's army, since in the game they worked with an Inquisitor.

I used to use Dev squads quite a lot in 3rd ed, until they removed the cannon fodder-cover rule for 4th. They can still work, just not as good as they once did. They have more weapons than an Annihalator, and are usually harder to kill, but if you're unlucky morale is a bitch. The best weapon set for them is four missile launchers, since this gives you flexibility between light infantry and tanks/heavy infantry. Lascannons cost too much and don't do enough, whilst Plasma Cannons are insanely gribbly against Marines etc but also insanely expensive, and can backfire.

[Keevan_Colton]

I've decided to put together a fluffy terminator command squad.

The Master of the Fleet of my chapter, in Terminator Armour with master crafted lightning claws accompanied by his personal bodyguard and boarding squad, a terminator sarge with power sword and storm bolter, one with a heavy flamer and one with an assault cannon. Then four more marines with storm bolters, two of them with chainfists for cutting through bulkheads.

And all with Furious charge so that the master gets to attack at initative 6 with 6 strength 5 attacks on the charge. With a reroll to hit and rerolls to wound and no armour saves

I've started converting the Master, I'm using the captain lysander body with the metal lightning claw arms, I think the new lightning claws look shit.

[defanatic]

Admittedly, I've never really paid much attention to SM army lists, but how long have Dreadnaughts been Elite choices? I always thought they were Heavy Support, and that there was some chapter that allowed them to be taken as Elite as well, but that wasn't standard.
Have they been changed, or am I just mis-remembering?

No, it's the other way round, the trait lets you take them as heavy support as well. Taking them as elites is the standard way of it in the codex.

Ah, I see. I guess when you've not played 40K for about a year and a half and all you get confused about is an army you've never collected, you shouldn't be too worred

Actually, in the original 3rd Ed rulebook, with the mini temporary army lists, Space Marine Dreadnaughts are Heavy Support. Chaos ones still are.

[Keevan_Colton]

Here is the start of it:

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I've always play 1000 points so this may not apply to larger games, but I always stay a long way away from Land Raiders and Terminators. The former is just a massive target, and you can get the same effect for less points with a Predator Annihalator. As a transport you lose most of its ability to shoot, and due to its size it can get in the way. Tree dodging with a LR also means you can't shoot, which isn't a problem with a Rhino.

Say what? A Land Raider may not be the absolute wisest thing to take in a mere 1000pt match, but even then they can be extremely useful. In my experience enmity for them lies in misunderstanding its battlefield role and capabilities. Armored to the point of absurdity and still able to fire a weapon after moving 12", in addition to its occupants being able to assault another six inches in that turn (a capability unique to Land Raiders!) can yield some serious blitzkrieg death. 5 Assault Terminators or a kitted-out Command Squad can ruin your opponent's day. Under no circumstances should a Land Raider ever be considered a "big shooty tank lawlz!!!1" Those guns are just the side dish to the main entree.

[Keevan_Colton]

Those guns are just the side dish to the main entree.

A land raider properly used is like a marine pizza truck, garunteed delivery

[Lazarus]

Well in any 1,000 point game I've ever played in which either I or another player use a Land Raider, it takes an entire quarter of your armies points, and if you're putting something remotely deadly in it, like a Termie assault squad, thats at least another 1/4 of your points gone. Add the necessary troops and commander and thats your entire army. Oh look, the other guy has a predator annihalator, and blew my LR to shit. Ah well, so much for that.

I can understand that they may have a role in a larger game, however a while back White Dwarf ran a sort of road-to-GT series of articles, which followed a marine player from entering the GT to the finals. He originally had a Land Raider in his force, but every game it got killed by a much lower points cost model before it could do anything, so he scrapped it and had more success. All the pro players at my local GW would laugh whenever a noob pulled out a LR, and merrily blow it to shit before crushing the rest of the under-strength army. I remember a particularly well placed Earthshaker shot than killed the LR and the 300 point command squad in it. You might as well paint a target on the side with a flag saying 'shoot me, I cost loads'.