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Post by Coyote »

Glocksman wrote:... Massachusetts and Texas have very differing laws on both gay rights and gun rights.
And it is unfortunate, because it leaves the impression that the two political viewpoints are mutually exclusive. A person can be for gay rights and other civil freedoms but against restrictive gun control laws.

(Oddly enough, it was a gay friend that convinced me to join the NRA. He lived in San Jose and he felt that trusting the same cops that "did the Rodney King thing" to protect his life was asking too much. But then he also tried to extol the virtues of the Libertarian Party; I had to balk at that.) :wink:
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Darth Wong wrote: Yeah, you're right, it's utterly ridiculous to think that anybody could ever cause any real trouble or threaten anybody with a knife.
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Thank you for illustrating how totally retarded knife restrictions are. The exposed blade on a box cutter is normally less then an inch long and usually the entire blade even if you take it out of the handle (make it even worse as a weapon since you can’t even hold it well) is only going to be 2-3 inches at most.
Since as you have proven even the smallest blades can destroy buildings and kill thousands we really ought to just get along with our lives and try not to worry about the nuclear initiations and mass anthrax bombardment a dagger or sword might cause.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Thank you for illustrating how totally retarded knife restrictions are.
Thank you for demonstrating that gun advocates don't bother reading before snapping off knee-jerk responses. For the umpteenth time, I don't actually think that a knife ban would accomplish anything. I'm only pointing out some of the ridiculous tactics being employed by certain individuals, such as Broomstick's "I beat up a guy with a knife once, so knives are useless as weapons" argument. The pro-gun lobby has always resorted to meaningless bullshit arguments in order to bolster its position, and this thread is no exception. Just look at Coyote's meaningless "it puts the blame on the weapon rather than the person" argument.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Keevan_Colton wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:minor question, what about people like me?

Carrying a machette in your car isnt a good idea with the laws here, what the fuck do you need a machette in your car for anyway?

remember I live in the middle of nowhere, and actually use the machete for a sharp cutting blade when I need to cut through rope, or turn a fallen tree branch into a basic lever. Or other uses, keep saying I'll use it if I find a crippled deer thrashing about, but haven't yet found one that wasn't dead enough that I couldn't just use rope to drag her off the road.
needed to use it about a month ago to move a large rock off the road way.

you know things that nobody in any city will ever understand.
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Post by Edi »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
The Yosemite Bear wrote:minor question, what about people like me?

Carrying a machette in your car isnt a good idea with the laws here, what the fuck do you need a machette in your car for anyway?

remember I live in the middle of nowhere, and actually use the machete for a sharp cutting blade when I need to cut through rope, or turn a fallen tree branch into a basic lever. Or other uses, keep saying I'll use it if I find a crippled deer thrashing about, but haven't yet found one that wasn't dead enough that I couldn't just use rope to drag her off the road.
needed to use it about a month ago to move a large rock off the road way.

you know things that nobody in any city will ever understand.
Colin, he probably forgot about that aspect of your life. You have good reasons for it, but most other people here? They'd be reaching.

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Post by His Divine Shadow »

But... Why do they need to justify it to a goverment? What will that help? It's primary function is as a tool and thats likely what people getting it legally would be using it for, or maybe they just collect knives. Anyway the amount of deaths coming from normal people who own machetes is so small I haven't seen any of it. The only place I've heard of machete related deahts is in Indonesia or latin america by gangfights and such.

In that light, what benefits would a machete ban offer for the average person? Is really another law neccesary, or more licensing by the police, as if they don't have enough to do already?
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Post by Edi »

His Divine Shadow wrote:But... Why do they need to justify it to a goverment? What will that help? It's primary function is as a tool and thats likely what people getting it legally would be using it for, or maybe they just collect knives. Anyway the amount of deaths coming from normal people who own machetes is so small I haven't seen any of it. The only place I've heard of machete related deahts is in Indonesia or latin america by gangfights and such.

In that light, what benefits would a machete ban offer for the average person? Is really another law neccesary, or more licensing by the police, as if they don't have enough to do already?
There is no need for a permit system for knives, axes, machetes and such. Go walk around in downtown Helsinki with a machete accessible like a sword on you or an axe swinging casually in your hand and see how fast the cops will stop you for a chat and confiscate the thing. Most city ordinances prohibit carrying around dangerous implements unless they are properly secured (e.g. you could carry around a sword in a large bag simialr to a snowboard or golfbag that you can't get it out of at a moment's notice). Carrying a machete in the countryside is another matter, it has legitimate uses like clearing saplings out of the way and so forth.

But this insistence on carrying knives and such anytime, anywhere even when you don't really have an actual use for them is nothing but more libertarian wanking.

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Post by His Divine Shadow »

There is no need for a permit system for knives, axes, machetes and such. Go walk around in downtown Helsinki with a machete accessible like a sword on you or an axe swinging casually in your hand and see how fast the cops will stop you for a chat and confiscate the thing. Most city ordinances prohibit carrying around dangerous implements unless they are properly secured (e.g. you could carry around a sword in a large bag simialr to a snowboard or golfbag that you can't get it out of at a moment's notice). Carrying a machete in the countryside is another matter, it has legitimate uses like clearing saplings out of the way and so forth.
And do you think people would openly carry axes and whatnot on them if they could? I doubt that myself. I really think that if a criminal or paranoid person so concerned with self defence wanted a bladed weapon he'd go with a small knife that he could hide and not get looks over or extra attention from the police(because even if it wasn't strictly illegal it'd still be a head turner).

So thus I argue that a law is uneccesary in this case, normal people don't walk around with large bladed weapons even if they could and criminals would prefer smaller weapons irregardless of laws and regulations. Only ones with an interest are country folk and collectors.
But this insistence on carrying knives and such anytime, anywhere even when you don't really have an actual use for them is nothing but more libertarian wanking.
Thats not what is being said. The insistence is that laws are not required because of aforementioned reasons, that one shouldn't have to need to justify to the goverment ones reasons for wanting to own one is also a reason of course but I don't see why that should be denigrated as "libertarian wanking".
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Post by Edi »

As has been said many times, the ownership of knives etc is not an issue and never has been contested. Try reading what is written instead of what you wish people had written for a change.

Carrying them around in public when you do not have a legitimate use for doing so is an issue, however. Sure, you can carry them around, but expect them to be confiscated and possible fines if you do get found with one. Simple as that. There doesn't need to be a law, a simple city or county ordinance is quite enough.

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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Edi wrote:I'm getting as tired of the libertarian wanking in this snipped off piece as I am of it in the SLAM thread. And here I can even do something about it. Which means that if this bullshit goes on for much longer, this thread gets locked and people may or may not have their bullshit horsemanized.

HDS, you are confusing a gun licensing type scheme with simple ordinances prohibiting carrying around knives and other such implements in public without a good enough cause. Which means that if the cops find a knife on you and you can't produce such a reason, they'll confiscate it and tell you to fuck off and that's that. Or arrest you if you start giving them too much shit over it.

The justification of such confiscation is that it is done in the interest of public safety. To avoid confiscation, you need to show an equal or greater benefit that requires you to carry the tool around or you're shit out of luck. The right to carry it around whenever and wherever is NOT the default condition, which is what the libertarian wankers in this thread and its parent have utterly failed to address.
you are inccorect. It really is the other way around and thats how it's always been in western society. Everything is legal until deemed illegal, that is the default position and it needs have justification to become illegal. Just saying "public safety" doesn't cut it, it's I am sure you know there is a burden of proof issue as well. And thats not libertarian wanking.

We oppose a ban because nothing shows that it's going to work very well in actually saving any lives and that there are other avenues that would work better. I'm getting tired of infantile retards like Keevan_colton strawmanning and generalizing every last person who poses this question to him, he just goes "ban ban ban waaaahhhh!"
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Edi wrote:As has been said many times, the ownership of knives etc is not an issue and never has been contested. Try reading what is written instead of what you wish people had written for a change.

Carrying them around in public when you do not have a legitimate use for doing so is an issue, however. Sure, you can carry them around, but expect them to be confiscated and possible fines if you do get found with one. Simple as that. There doesn't need to be a law, a simple city or county ordinance is quite enough.
Fine, I can agree with that. Sweeping bans, not. Which really did come up as well. Also my last answer went cockup into the wrong thread.
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Post by Edi »

His Divine Shadow wrote:Also my last answer went cockup into the wrong thread.
Matters little, because it might as well not have been split judging by the contents. The thing is that his use of the word ban can just as easily refer to a licensing system as the type of ordinance I was talking about, and from the context it's pretty obvious he would mean the latter.

Others have said that banning knives, as in prohibiting them completely, simply would not work.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Edi wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote:Also my last answer went cockup into the wrong thread.
Matters little, because it might as well not have been split judging by the contents. The thing is that his use of the word ban can just as easily refer to a licensing system as the type of ordinance I was talking about, and from the context it's pretty obvious he would mean the latter.
Disagreement there. I never got ban could mean licensing thing and no it still doesn't seem true. Context doesn't imply such either.
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Post by Broomstick »

Keevan_Colton wrote:Carrying a machette in your car isnt a good idea with the laws here, what the fuck do you need a machette in your car for anyway?
Can't speak for the other gentleman, and I don't carry the machete all the time in the car trunk, but ...

One of the model airplane fields my Other Half frequents is surronded by tall grass prarie. When one of the models crashes we try to retrieve for both the salvage value and to prevent littering. Tallgrass prarie vegetation grows 2-3 meters in height and the native grasses have leaves sharp enough to cut bare flesh. It's dense stuff, very hard or even impossible to simply push through. Going in we wear heavy boots, full trousers, long sleeves, gloves... and use machetes or even axes when appropriate.

The primary reason most sharp blades are made and used by human being is as tools. In fact, our ancestors were using sharp blades even before we were human.

Do I drive around all the time with a machete in my car? Hell no - for one thing, some places I have reason to go they are illegal, and frankly there's no reason to have such a tool in, say, the Chicago Loop. It's a highly artificial environment, after all - what tallgrass vegetation they have there is part of the gardens in the city park and it's cared for by people paid to do that. It's entirely reasonable to ask people to leave machetes at home when they visit downtown Chicago. Out where I live, or out where we fly the model planes, there are legtimate uses for the tools in those locations and I can't agree that it's right or that society somehow benefits overall by taking such tools from law-abiding citizens. Nor can I agree with extensive licensing and restrictions for every conceivable blade. At a certain point you need to treat adults like adults.

Nor does every violent situation escalate in the mere presence of weapons. The Other Half and I used to be heavily involved in the ethnic Scottish community in the Chicago area, which features men in kilts, and often carrying enough culterly to outfit several professonal kitchens. Add in the inevitable alcohol and we'd get inevitable fights. I can't think of a single occassion where anyone advanced beyond fists be it in Detroit, Fort Wayne, Chicago, or Milwaukee -- even though virtually everyone was wearing real knives, dirks, and even swords. We'd serve beer and scotch in glass bottles, too - somehow, no one thought of using those as weapons, either.

The mere presence of blades in the vinicity does not automatically mean their use in battle. Confrontations do not always escalate. I think more purpose would be served to find out what the differences are between groups that ratchet up their arguments to deadly force and those that do not, even when things reach to a physical level of fighting. Unless, of course, you like restrictions simply for the sake of restrictions.

There are two ways to view freedom: Either you take the stance that everything not explicitly permitted is forbidden, or you hold that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. In the former case, you have to continually justify your actions to the government. In the later, the government has to justify it's actions to you. No doubt it comes from being raised in the US, but I prefer to live under the latter system, where anything not forbidden is permitted.
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Post by Broomstick »

Keevan_Colton wrote:What is so wrong with people having to show a need for something that can potentially be dangerous?
Then justify the need for private ownership of cars
Then justify the need for privately-owned knives in private kitchens
For that matter - justify ownership of forks
Justify ownership of common cleaning chemicals, such as bleach
Justfiy ownership of fuels such as gasoline
Jusfity the need for using natural gas or propane for cooking and heating
Justify ownership of table saws, power drills, nail guns, drain clog remover, nail polish remover, turpentine, disposable lighters, BBQ grills, bug-kiler, and just plain old ordinary matches.

All of which are "potentially dangerous"

Maybe we should outlaw martial arts and weight training while we're at it, since it makes an unarmed human "potentially dangerous".
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Post by Spoonist »

When in law related discussions I usually try to get a reality check from friends in the police. That usually gives me a more 'practical' perspective on the issue.

When the knifecontrol laws went through in my country my police friends where really happy, it was something which would make their jobs much easier. When I talked to them about it they could easily name dozens of dayly situations that would improve with the new law. (As a sidenote where I live the 'knife laws' also refer to other weapons like knuckledusters, nunchucks etc. Also it is only enforced in "public places" so walking in the woods with a bowie is OK). So even though I was ambivalent before I'm now in favor of these laws.

Most of it boiled down to some simple things (remember that the examples is me trying to remember, so any inconsistencies might be from my bad memory and not my police friends):
-Being able to book the bad guys.
Example: Common police work involves a lot of being called to a suspect person/situation but not catching the suspect 'in the act'. Before the law they where called several times a month to would be robbers/burglars who they could not book because it was not illegal to be hiding in the dark with a weapon.
-Being able to confiscate and destroy weapons.
Example: Most of the violent bad guys are substance abusers wether it is alcohol or drugs, they are usually not coherent or logical. So when being released from jail they will immediately use whatever they have on them to get money and it used to be that handweapons where not considered 'illegal' and had therefore to be given back to the person. With the new law the weapons where 'illegal' and could be confiscated and destroyed. That means that the bad guy when considering their options after release would not reach into the pocket and find the solution to their money problems right away which usually means begging for it instead.
-Being able to cool down hooligan/gang show downs.
Example: When called in these situation the problem isn't knowing who the bad guys are or knowing if they will use violence, rather it is getting a legal reason to get them off the streets until the show down is over or the chance for violence has passed. After the law a quick search can reveal weapons and not only confiscate the weapon but also take the perp off the streets until the situation is over or even to jail them for the offence.
-Less weapons in demonstrations
Example: Before the law it was common for both far-rightwing and far-leftwing demonstrators to bring weapons for 'self defence'. Now because they know that they will be booked if they have them there is just as much violence in connection with the demonstrations but the violence results in less serious injuries.

They also loved that they could be proactive for a change and act before the violent crime took place instead of after as usually is the case for the police. So not only was it making their jobs easier it also had a moral boosting effect. (I don't think that we can appreciate how much frustration there is in the policework to not being able to prevent crime but instead just having to clean up after the fact).

What they did say though is that this is an urban law and that outside of the cities it is pretty pointless. So their colleagues in smaller towns thought the law was useless and wouldn't have any effect on their work.

I also have a friend who used to sit as a legal counsel to the judge (most of europe not having the jury system) and he was also mainly positive. Because they could impose harsher sentences when a crime involved weapons, so that the court could make a legal distinction between ordinary thieves if they where armed or not. What he didn't like with it where that it was hard to make the distinction when the weapon was concealed. Like if it is legal/illegal to have a knife in the glove compartment compared to the boot of the car.

Now remember that crime/violence just like much other human interaction is cultural. So just because a law does/doesn't make sense 'over there' doesn't make it necessary that it will/won't make sense 'over here'. So if you know someone in law enforcement where you live, ask them how a similar law would affect their job, positive and negative. Personally I think that if it is only an inconveniance for the public and me but makes their jobs easier then they deserve it for all they do for us.

-> The Yosemite Bear
Having a machete in a bag/toolbox in the car or when walking in the woods would not be illegal where I live (and I think that it is the same in the UK). The law is only vs easily reached blades in public places. I have friends who are hunters/farmers and they are only affected by the law in that they must remember to stow away their gear in the trunk before driving into town.

-> His Divine Shadow
Do you agree with US airport security regulations when it comes to banning blades?
Do you agree with US school security regulations when it comes to banning blades?
If you do, what is the difference of enforcing this in all public places?
If you don't then it would be nice if you could please provide an argument for allowing blades/weapons in schools and/or airports.

->Darth Wong
To include a 911 picture in the discussion on such a loose connection as "only pointing out some of the ridiculous tactics being employed by certain individuals" is simply ironic.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

-> His Divine Shadow
Do you agree with US airport security regulations when it comes to banning blades?
Do you agree with US school security regulations when it comes to banning blades?

If you do, what is the difference of enforcing this in all public places?
Mostly because airports and schools aren't public places. Schools are also places where people under the age of 18 are gathered and they don't really have the same rights as people above the age of 18. And also because a ban wouldn't really do anything to alleivate most knife related problems, and we're talking about bans now. Licensing is better option in this case and one I can understand as opposed to a ban, inside urban areas ofcourse. Outside it's completely uneccessary ofcourse.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Mostly because airports and schools aren't public places.

Well in a way they are public but not in the same way as a street is public. Just saying.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Broomstick wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:What is so wrong with people having to show a need for something that can potentially be dangerous?
Then justify the need for private ownership of cars
Then justify the need for privately-owned knives in private kitchens
For that matter - justify ownership of forks
Justify ownership of common cleaning chemicals, such as bleach
Justfiy ownership of fuels such as gasoline
Jusfity the need for using natural gas or propane for cooking and heating
Justify ownership of table saws, power drills, nail guns, drain clog remover, nail polish remover, turpentine, disposable lighters, BBQ grills, bug-kiler, and just plain old ordinary matches.

All of which are "potentially dangerous"

Maybe we should outlaw martial arts and weight training while we're at it, since it makes an unarmed human "potentially dangerous".
In Scotland, around half the murders are committed with knives. When we start having large numbers of murders committed with bleach, thrown gasoline or propane, or forks, let me know.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Broomstick wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:What is so wrong with people having to show a need for something that can potentially be dangerous?
Then justify the need for private ownership of cars
Then justify the need for privately-owned knives in private kitchens
For that matter - justify ownership of forks
Justify ownership of common cleaning chemicals, such as bleach
Justfiy ownership of fuels such as gasoline
Jusfity the need for using natural gas or propane for cooking and heating
Justify ownership of table saws, power drills, nail guns, drain clog remover, nail polish remover, turpentine, disposable lighters, BBQ grills, bug-kiler, and just plain old ordinary matches.

All of which are "potentially dangerous"

Maybe we should outlaw martial arts and weight training while we're at it, since it makes an unarmed human "potentially dangerous".
I dont know why you're bitching about owning things, this isnt about ownership it's about carrying around in public.

And you know what people arent allowed to use cars in public without testing and licenses. Gas systems need to be installed and monitered by professional engineers and a lot of tools wont be sold to those under 16...solvents of all sorts are illegal to sell to those under 18 and there are licenses for dealing in toxic chemicals.

...wait, did you want me to go, oh no! I dont know how on earth to answer any of these things!

The level of controls varies from item to item, but there are various different ones.

You'll also find the police here take a dim view of folk walking about with nail guns and portable drills in public without a reason too...
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Spoonist
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Post by Spoonist »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
-> His Divine Shadow
Do you agree with US airport security regulations when it comes to banning blades?
Do you agree with US school security regulations when it comes to banning blades?

If you do, what is the difference of enforcing this in all public places?
Mostly because airports and schools aren't public places. (Well in a way they are public but not in the same way as a street is public. Just saying.) Schools are also places where people under the age of 18 are gathered and they don't really have the same rights as people above the age of 18. And also because a ban wouldn't really do anything to alleivate most knife related problems, and we're talking about bans now. Licensing is better option in this case and one I can understand as opposed to a ban, inside urban areas ofcourse. Outside it's completely uneccessary ofcourse.
From a legal perspective a person below the age of 18 actually have more rights, not less than adults. Why it might seem to be the other way around is because of rules in society which has nothing to do with laws or legality.
Also for your own argument's sake I think that you need to clarify for yourself why you think it is OK to ban blades in certain public spaces and not in others. Is it OK to ban blades at a workplace for instance? Even if it is open to the public? If I own an establishment then is it OK if I ban blades even though they are legal? There are lots of places even in the US which have no knifelaws which ban blades for the simple reason that they will lead to injuries. Please think this through and then come back with why you really think that you should be allowed to carry a blade in public places.
To me licensing would only make the job more difficult for those who work in law enforcement, which is something which I would always have to disagree with.
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Spoonist
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Post by Spoonist »

Broomstick wrote:There are two ways to view freedom: Either you take the stance that everything not explicitly permitted is forbidden, or you hold that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. In the former case, you have to continually justify your actions to the government. In the later, the government has to justify it's actions to you. No doubt it comes from being raised in the US, but I prefer to live under the latter system, where anything not forbidden is permitted.
I hope you realise how bigoted this opinion you expressed here is.
Not only is it a black/white and strawman fallacy but you are also implying that non-US folks don't understand the concept of freedom. Please do point out any democracy in the world where they don't have the system "that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted". I really get pissed off at snubs like these.

What you need to understand is that there are many people out there who are quite willing to give up certain PRIVILIGES or are willing to put up with INCONVENIANCIES to hopefully protect the innocent.
Just compare the difference between drivers license testing in the US vs Europe.
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His Divine Shadow
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

From a legal perspective a person below the age of 18 actually have more rights, not less than adults. Why it might seem to be the other way around is because of rules in society which has nothing to do with laws or legality.
A person under 18 cannot vote, cannot drive, cannot drink. None of those things. This also applies to carrying and purchasing weapons. These are the laws where I live and in most other countries.
Also for your own argument's sake I think that you need to clarify for yourself why you think it is OK to ban blades in certain public spaces and not in others. Is it OK to ban blades at a workplace for instance? Even if it is open to the public?
Banning the blade is up to your boss, his place, his rules as long as they don't violate workers protection laws. Again the work place isn't the street either. There's also a difference between working hours and personal hours. Please stop wasting time with nitpicks that lead nowhere.
Please think this through and then come back with why you really think that you should be allowed to carry a blade in public places.
I've thought this through before, you're the one who hasn't. Ofcourse I should be allowed to carry a blade in public if I have a permit. I see no reason to disallow it. It wouldn't help one iota from a public safety stance to take knives out of the hands of people who'd go to the trouble of getting a carry permit.
To me licensing would only make the job more difficult for those who work in law enforcement, which is something which I would always have to disagree with.
In what way would that make it harder for police officers and why should they be the only ones consideration? If you've been a "good enough boy" to get a license to begin with then I doubt you're a criminal who will interfere with the police and they can still freely arrest any criminals without permits still. People do have rights and if they feel they have enough reasons to bother getting a permit then they should get one too.
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Broomstick
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Post by Broomstick »

Spoonist wrote:
Broomstick wrote:There are two ways to view freedom: Either you take the stance that everything not explicitly permitted is forbidden, or you hold that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. In the former case, you have to continually justify your actions to the government. In the later, the government has to justify it's actions to you. No doubt it comes from being raised in the US, but I prefer to live under the latter system, where anything not forbidden is permitted.
I hope you realise how bigoted this opinion you expressed here is.
I don't see where it is bigoted at all.
Not only is it a black/white and strawman fallacy but you are also implying that non-US folks don't understand the concept of freedom.
Where did I say anything about US vs. non-US in that post. What, you don't think there are differences of opinion here in the US? YOU are reading far more into my post than is there.
Please do point out any democracy in the world where they don't have the system "that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted". I really get pissed off at snubs like these.
I wasn't discussing democracy. I was discussing freedom. They are not synonymous, although frequently found together.

For that matter, properly speaking the US is not a democracy. It's a representational federal republic.

Now, ancient Athens has been called a democracy... which it was, as long as you were a free-born Athenian male. If you were foreign, a slave, or a woman tough shit
What you need to understand is that there are many people out there who are quite willing to give up certain PRIVILIGES or are willing to put up with INCONVENIANCIES to hopefully protect the innocent.
And some of us are NOT willing to give up anything WE have earned or to be inconvenienced by the stupidity and irresponsibility of other people.
Just compare the difference between drivers license testing in the US vs Europe.
Just compare having the right to defend yourself in the US vs. being unable to defend yourself in Europe. Although it would be more accurate to say parts of Europe because I am aware that Europe is not full of clones nor are all those countries exactly alike.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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Broomstick
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Post by Broomstick »

Darth Wong wrote:In Scotland, around half the murders are committed with knives. When we start having large numbers of murders committed with bleach, thrown gasoline or propane, or forks, let me know.
If you want to argue that we should outlaw that which is most frequently used as a weapon you at least have a leg to stand on. Arguing we should outlaw something because someone might get hurt is bullshit because the world in an inherently hazardous place.

If you're justifying ownership of all those "dangerous things" based on the idea that most murders are committed with other items then OK by me.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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