Trip's Betrayal Notes and Q & A Thread - Spoilers

[FTeik]

Isn't it a little late to get away from the Star Destroyer-designation after thirty years in-universe-history?

My only hope for this series NOT turning into another minimalistic wank-fest like so many other EU-stories is Troy Denning. Granted, the man has his flaws too, but this guy gave us the battle for Coruscant with thousands of ships in the NJO, had millions of fighters and hundred-thousands of ground-soldiers on a single planet in his DN-trilogy.

[nightmare]

Where are you getting 4 squadrons per wing? As for 36 fighters in a squadron, the only place where I ever see that is once when CTD is describing the Corona-class frigate:

The actual Defenders in use had a maximum of four squadrons. They carried less than full compliment. Three E-Wing and one K-Wing.

The Corona is designed to carry a starfighter squadron (36 starfighters), although not all frigates have a full complement and some are assigned short-range fighters only

The same book later implies that 1 wing = 3 squadrons = 36 fighters when describing the Defender-class assault carrier:

The Defender carrier is mothership to one wing of fighters, sometimes consisting of a single class of starfighter, sometimes a mixed wing. The majority of the Defender-based wings in the Fifth Fleet have three E-wing squadrons, while a few are dedicated to supporting K-wing bomber squadrons.

Except it says no where that a squadron is 12 fighters. That's all you.

I'm inclined to believe that what the book said about the Corona was a mistake, for the following reasons:

1. Rebel/New Republic wings being 3 squadrons of 12 fighters each is common throughout WEG EU

2. WEG is extremely minimalist.

1. They also used a squadron of six fighters for a period. The Rogue "squadron" was upsized to a wing but the name remained. No go.

2. You're not helping by minimalist interpretations.

[/quote]3. The book never says anything whatsoever about the Corona's unusually large "squadron," it just says squadron and lists the number of ships in parentheses. I believe it's just a typo, and they meant "wing."[/quote]

So what makes you think that it's an unusually large squadron, and not simply that the NR redefined a squadron to 36 fighters with the New Class project? It's not like it's the first or the last time. Let me guess; you just don't think so. Well, tough luck. I need far less speculation to come to a far more reasonable result.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, the EU has been fairly consistent to having 12 fighters per wing and I think that was maintained for quite a lot of books. Suffice to say, I have yet to see an EU book aside from CTD describing 36 fighters per squadron yet.

[Jim Raynor]

nightmare, do you actually think I want this minimalist bullshit? I would think that I've more than proven in the past that I'm no McEwok. Believe me, I would be happy if the Endurance wasn't a lame piece of crap. Forgive me for the Defender quote too. All this time I had it in my mind that it said "3 dozen" E-wings on a Defender (in that case it would prove that wing = 36 ships), and I admit that I copy and pasted that quote thinking so, without reading it over again. I just doubt that WEG was actually not minimalist in this case, that's all.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Hey 000, could you post any details of the battles in the book? MAybe black it out or something? Thanks.

[000]

I'll post them when I get back from work tonight.

[JME2]

Skimmed over the last few chapters on my way back from work. Okay, let me see if I get this straight. Vergere was working for the Sith prior to the mission to Zonama Sekot, her training of Jacen, aside from the role it played in stopping the Vong, was to help in the formation of a new Sith Order, and Lumiya is apparently playing Sillik to a future Sith Lord Jacen's Future Guy. It's possible that Lumiya is lying through her teeth, but this is smacking too much of Infinite Crisis-level retconning to me...

[Shadowtraveler]

To be fair, it's only an Infinite-Crisis retconning if Luke breaks a window and changes history


EDIT: Wait, wait, wait....Vergere's a Sith? Fuck, the Jedi can never get a break. If they're not part of the Order and playing into someone's hands, they're leaving it and going Dark Side.

[President Sharky]

Well at least that explains the similarity of her Force philosophy to that of Count Dooku's circa ROTS. In the ROTS novelization, I can remember him musing about there not really being an "evil side", and that the Force is basically all in the eye of the beholder.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Vegere a Sith? Funny... a lot of people saw the similarity for a long time.. This isn't quite so surprising and certainly, Jacen must be that dense to have taken it in.

Now that I think about it, some of Darth Maul's training is similar to Jacen's under Vegere.

[Connor MacLeod]

So can someone explain to me why she kamikazed that A-wing in Destiny's Way?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

So can someone explain to me why she kamikazed that A-wing in Destiny's Way?

If Jacen didn't live or the Vong weren't defeated, the Sith wouldn't achieve their ends?

[Darth Fanboy]

I nearly tossed the book across the room when I read the part about Darth Vader never being able to be a true Sith Master because of his mechnical implants. I've never bought into that garbage and I thought that "Dark Lord" had made it out that his weaknesses stemmed from psychological problems and not physical.

Aaron Allston i'm disappointed, i've liked all of your books up until now.

[Surlethe]

What does the fact Coruscant is now a bustling metropolis again say about New Republic ability to clean up and rebuild? I'm not entirely clear what the YV did to the capital, but it seems that to rebuild a planet-city is not a trivial feat.

[Publius]

I nearly tossed the book across the room when I read the part about Darth Vader never being able to be a true Sith Master because of his mechnical implants. I've never bought into that garbage and I thought that "Dark Lord" had made it out that his weaknesses stemmed from psychological problems and not physical.

Shira Brie is not a reliable source for information on Sith doctrine. She was never trained as a Sith, nor was Chicken McHeresy; the only reliable sources for Sith doctrine in the modern era are Darth Sidious, Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Darth Vader, Jerec, and possibly Luke Skywalker. Since Darth Sidious, the reigning Sith Master, did not see fit to disqualify Vader from being his Apprentice because of his cybernetic body parts, then who is Lumiya — a bastard Sith at the very best — to say otherwise? She is no Sith Lord, and she certainly hasn't spent decades immersed in the cult and culture of the Sith Lords.

Consider, for example, that the Sith Lords practised the art of mechu-duru, a means of directly interfacing with mechanical constructs through the Force. Darth Maul was a known practitioner of this art, and he — unlike Shira Brie — was actually a Sith Lord. Consider the following passage from Revenge of the Sith (keeping in mind that "it" refers to the recently-cyborged Darth Vader and that "the shadow" refers to Darth Sidious, the reigning Sith Master):

To some eyes, it might have been a pieced-together hybrid of droid and human, encased in a life-support shell of gleaming black, managed by a thoracic processor that winked pale color against the shadow's cloak. To some eyes, its jointed limbs might have looked ungainly, clumsy, even monstrous; the featureless curves of black that served it for eyes might have appeared inhuman, and the underthrust grillwork of its vocabulator might have suggested the jaws of a saurian predator built of polished blast armor, but to the shadow —

It was glorious.

A magnificent jewel box, created both to protect and to exhibit the greatest treasure of the Sith.

Terrifying.

Mesmerizing.

Perfect.

If you were discussing the finer points of Catholic theology, whose word do you think would be more authoritative as to what the Church teaches and believes? Would you believe the word of a bitter ex-catechumen who was never so much as baptised, let alone confirmed or ordained? Or do you think that perhaps you might be better served by listening to the Pope?

[Darth Fanboy]

Pubilus, simply put, you rock.


Two other things that have irked me about the book:

-Would Thrackan Sal Solo just go away?

-The "Jacen going to the Dark Side" story arc is as predictable as any i've read in the EU.

[Shadowtraveler]

-Would Thrackan Sal Solo just go away?

No. He's the new Ventress of SW.

-The "Jacen going to the Dark Side" story arc is as predictable as any i've read in the EU.

Yeah. For all his vast training and power, he's really none too bright.

[Knife]

Anyone want to give me the spoilers on what the hell this 'Corellian rebellion' is about? I've read the NJO, but stopped there, if that helps.

[RogueIce]

Chicken McHeresy

Did you make that up or what?

Incidently, because I like Aaron Allston I'm thinking of reading this book, but I don't want to have to slog through all of NJO post-Star by Star and anything else along the way.

So can anyone give me a good summary of what I'd need to know for this book in advance?

[000]

Not a Vergere fan, eh, Publius?

But he's right: don't take anything said by a character to be face value. Lumiya's already been confirmed elsewhere to be a Sith 'Master' in prior sources, so she's almost certainly lying to Jacen.

I'll post more eventually-- sorry for not doing any battle play-by-plays yet-- but I've been too tired and busy to do more than post quick thoughts.

I finished it though, and I recommend it, even to those jaded by recent EU. A solid read, and a great set up for what looks to be a good series. The only bummer is I might wind up having to purchase Traviss work-- guh.

Here's a Betrayal quote, entirely out of context, that I liked:

"I'm sick of hearing the Rebel Alliance generation brag about how they stomped the Empire and then whine about how the galaxy owes them a living, or special favors. The Empire would have kicked the Yuuzhan Vong in the teeth, if you hadn't 'won'."

[RogueIce]

"I'm sick of hearing the Rebel Alliance generation brag about how they stomped the Empire and then whine about how the galaxy owes them a living, or special favors. The Empire would have kicked the Yuuzhan Vong in the teeth, if you hadn't 'won'."

Who said that? Anyone notable?

[Connor MacLeod]

First off, regarding the fighter issue.

That is at least 5-6 squadrons per hangar. And evidently, there's more than one hangar. On page 95-96, they note that Vibrosword squadron (the Eta-5 squad launching with Luke's Jedi squadron from the same hangar bay) is launching from the "forward-port-flange starfighter hangar".

At the very minimum, that's two hangars (port and starboard), possibly four (two on the port and starboard apiece, one forward and one aft.) Which means anywhere from 12-24 squadrons minimum. (possibly six, if there is a "middle hangar", for 216 fighters.) Evidently these hangars are mounted on the sides of the ship in the trenches and have armored blast doors covering them (the hangars evidently open up prior ot launch on page 92.) Which does have teh advantage of elimiating the exposed "power tree network" disadvatnage that destroyed the Imperial communications ship in ROTJ. (It would also allow, I think, for ventrally-mounted heavy guns without the hangars obscuring the line of sight of said cannons.)

As for the bit about the Strident "Star Defender" - "Star Defender" is just a term, not a ship class ("Star Destroyer" can apply to very large ships as well as very small ones.. the Executor and the Eclipse are both called "Star Destroyers".) Despite the fact that the Galactic-class does not substantially outmass an ISD, the fact that it is a Carrier suggests that much of its dry-mass is going to be empty space (think of the Venator or the Acclamator.) And while being as long as an ISD, the "battle carrier" is wider (possibly thicker as well, given its apparent carrier role) so its volume is going to be considerably grreater than an ISD even aside from the mass issue. (I'm actually kind of thinking of the Carrier Giels' Armada had..)

Also note that the Corellian yards have a history of building considerably smaller vessels than KDY or other yards: The ROTJ novelization references "Corellian battleships" that were smaller than Home One.

I also found this nice tidbit:

"on the far side of the room, sitting half upright, was an elderly man in an admiral's uniform. His head, neck, and the top portion of his chest were missing, the edges of what remained blacked by high energy. A huge hole in the wall above, centered at the two-meter level, showed where the upper reaches of his body had been when the blast had hit."

Looks like a single blaster shot took out the upper chest and head of a human individual. Thats at least single if not double digit MJ range firepower (disregarding the hole it made in the wall.)

More to the point, the novel also describes blasterfire being able to blast through doorways

[Darth Fanboy]

"I'm sick of hearing the Rebel Alliance generation brag about how they stomped the Empire and then whine about how the galaxy owes them a living, or special favors. The Empire would have kicked the Yuuzhan Vong in the teeth, if you hadn't 'won'."

Who said that? Anyone notable?

mild spoiler:Two GA Agents are sent to put Wedge Antilles under a form of House Arrest so that he won't participate in the upcoming conflict. The officer who said that was upset because the Vong killed people he cared about.


As far as The Corellian Rebellion goes, you do not need to read any of the NJO/Vong War or any of the Swarm War to really understand it. Just know that the war itself really cost a lot of money. The reason behind this Corellian Rebellion is thatCorellia is trying to maintain their independence but they are pestering the GA for GA-membership perks. Basically they want privileges without having to pay for them. Which would be a huge advantage because the GA is trying to rebuild across the galaxy post0Vong but Corellia doesn't want to pony up any cash or anything. Corellia has some influence on other nearby worlds also.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well ther's some reference to Some events, but the only novels you'd really need to read IMHO to get an diea about what's going on would be the luceno "agents of Chaos" books, which seem to be the ones most directly influencing this book (as far as I can tell.)

[nightmare]

What does the fact Coruscant is now a bustling metropolis again say about New Republic ability to clean up and rebuild? I'm not entirely clear what the YV did to the capital, but it seems that to rebuild a planet-city is not a trivial feat.

Well, we know that Telos was rebuilt, and Taris was rebuilt according to EAW. But Camaas, the source of a true BDZ operation, left the world so devastated that terraforming a different planet would be easier. So Coruscant probably wasn't targeted with BDZ-level destruction (this seems likely to have made Vonglife impossible as well), but rather massive infrastructure damage.