ISD Build Time

[PainRack]

Though I'm not attempting to rationalize minimalist numbers, just because the Empire could churn out millions of Star Destroyers in terms of resources at their disposal doesn't mean that they could crew them, at least not effectively. The DSII, though it would have required crew in the tens of millions, if not more, is largely uninhabited. Seven digit ISD fleets would require hundreds of billions of personel, at least. Feasible? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be easy to achieve, even with extensive usage of cloning (they would have to revert back to Clone War level production, no doubt a drastic economic shift).

On top of crews, there's also the question of expenses, fuel and spare parts for such a large fleet.

The Empire probably built up to a level that it felt comfortabe with and then chose to expend its remainding budget on super-vessels and a tier of support classes for non-vital operations.

[Cykeisme]

Seven digit ISD fleets would require hundreds of billions of personel, at least. Feasible? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be easy to achieve, even with extensive usage of cloning (they would have to revert back to Clone War level production, no doubt a drastic economic shift).

This is perhaps an oversimplification, but doesn't the use of clone crewmembers mean that crew production is little different from ship production? Admittedly there would be a lag time of approximately ten years, but for the Empire, crews can be "manufactured" just as ships can be. I'm not sure I understand why massive levels of clone production would require a more drastic economic shift than high levels of ship production.

Plus, this is all supplemented by ordinary non-clone crewmen drawn from the SW galaxy's staggering population, of course.

[Spartan]

NRS Guardian wrote:

Considering there are supposed to be at least 24 ISDs per sector fleet and there are thousands of sectors, and including the various oversector fleets and independent commands like Death Squadron the 25,000 ISD number seems a little low. There should be at least 50,000 ISDs in the sector fleets alone, and thousands more in the oversector and offensive fleets.

That's what I get from that quote, Pellaeon was a mere Captain, and an unimportant one at that. There is no way that he knew how many ships the navy contained; the Empire was highly compartmentalized, and he has no need to know. Even the grand admirals probably did not know the whole truth. He thought "...out of a fleet numbering 25,000" with no qualification of whether he was refering to the entire imperial fleet, an oversector fleet, a regional fleet, priority fleet, core worlds fleet, etc, etc... So, 25,000 only a lower limit. There are undoubtedly published figures, for the sake of the imperial senate at the very least. But if two Deathstars could be funded in secret its very unlikely that the exact size of the Imperial fleet was knwon to any one outside of Palpatine's inner circle. In ANH, General Dodonna probably over estimated the deathstar's firepower in relation to the imperial fleet.

[Spartan]

Noble Ire wrote:

Seven digit ISD fleets would require hundreds of billions of personnel, at least. Feasible? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be easy to achieve, even with extensive usage of cloning (they would have to revert back to Clone War level production, no doubt a drastic economic shift).

I seriously doubt that a major economic shift would be necessary. Although, the nationalizing of critical industries could be deem one, and the Empire was in the process of enacting totalitarian control of all the engines of commerce, so there you go. Still though is you look at the cost of the fleet versus the number of credit the super-corporation were pulling in in the corporate sector alone; its nothing! The cost of the fleet is trivial, only the will to make it happen is necessary.

PainRack wrote:

On top of crews, there's also the question of expenses, fuel and spare parts for such a large fleet.

Again, trivial compared to the scale of the economy and population were discussing.

The Empire probably built up to a level that it felt comfortable with and then chose to expend its remaining budget on super-vessels and a tier of support classes for non-vital operations.

You build a fleet with its intended mission in mind. The destroyers and frigates are for patrolling and general security and to combat pirates and, and the like. The cruisers, battlecruiser, battleships, and dreadnaughts are to deter rebellious moff’s and admirals. Also we know for a fact that the fleet was built in part to combat extra-galactic threats. The numbers put out by the EU aren't even close to enough, given the amount of space that has to patrolled and secured.

[Darth Tanner]

I always thought the vast bulk of the Imperial fleet would have comprised smaller ships, like Carrack cruisers. These smaller ships would be far more practical for patroling against piracy and criminals as the huge operating costs of Star Destroyers would make it uneconomical for use in patrol roles or even attacking pirate vessels, if CCA Marauders were considered sufficient for policing the Corporate Sector then a Carrack should have no problem. In the truce at Bakura books (admitadlty a very minimilast book in terms of numbers) Bakura, a small Imperial planet if efficiently controlled by a single Carrack. Star Destroyers would only really be needed for planetary invasions of rebel or neutral planets and duking it out with big Rebel ships.

Also assuming a SD has a crew of 37,000 men (we'll assume all ground troops are clones or not on board) then a fleet of 2 million ships would need a crew of 74 billion just to man the ships at any one time ignoring rotating crew and logistics. Now assuming the 2 million systems in the empire each with an average population of 5 billion (smaller worlds would make up for giants like Coruscant) then the total population of the empire (just the core systems not isolated systems) would be ten thousand trillion people (ish)

which would be 0.7% of the population - assuming everyone is human and acceptable for enlistment
I think in the US current service rate is about 0.5%?

This would suggest that such a large number of SDs (one per planet) would definatly be possible but wouldnt leave many crew available for service on other ships and ground forces (which I dont believe are comprised largely of clones at this later stage)

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

0.7% of 10 quadrillion (which would mean Coruscant alone would make up a large fraction of the Galactic population) is 70 trillion, not billion. 74 billion would be more like 0.00074% of the population, a trivial number.

[Noble Ire]

I seriously doubt that a major economic shift would be necessary. Although, the nationalizing of critical industries could be deem one, and the Empire was in the process of enacting totalitarian control of all the engines of commerce, so there you go. Still though is you look at the cost of the fleet versus the number of credit the super-corporation were pulling in in the corporate sector alone; its nothing! The cost of the fleet is trivial, only the will to make it happen is necessary.

Of course, the will really is the thing at issue. I never denied that such a feat could be accomplished, both in terms of material and crewers, but it would still take effort (although the Empire was in the process of fully nationalizing idustry and commerce, psudeo-independant corporate engines did still exist, and the Emperor would have likely had to step up his efforts to assimilate them).

However, there wasn't really a need for a fleet of such vast size; virtually every major power in the galaxy was under direct or nominal Imperial control by the OT period, and even those that still possessed sizeable private fleets of capital warships (Hapes, The Chiss, The Trianii, and the CSA are the only I can think of, with the possible addition of the Hutts, and of course the Mon Calamari) had them in very limited quantity. The Rebellion was a essentially a terrorist force up until very shortly before the Battle of Endor, to be dealt with through virtual police action; fleets were for trade regulation and patrol duty, or simply for show/a place to deposit excess resources. Unless a powerful warlord were to break away while the Emperor was still in power, a very unlikely possibility, the only forseeable event in which an sigificant expiditionary force would needed would be the anticipated Vong invasion, an easily won conflict with the resources at a full empire's disposal. Until the Emperor decided to invading other galaxies, more than a few hundred thousand ISDs simply could not be justified.

It makes sense that the Empire didn't arm itself to full potential; it wasn't cost-effective (however, I agree, current EU figures are far too small).

[Deathstalker]

Just a quick thought. If the Empire started building Imperators upon Palpatine's take over of the Republic, and assuming you use the 25,000 ISD figure, and this figure is about the time of the Battle of Hoth, then ISDs have been built for roughly twenty years (Luke's age) at an average rate of 1250 a year. If Kuat is the only yard building them and does not license them to anyone else, then I think it is a pretty safe assumption that KDY could crank out 104 ISDs a month , which really isn't that hard to believe.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Given that Kuat could churn out a few thousand Venators in 3 years and if the yard was farsighted enough, and continued expansion and ensured the drydocks could accomodate ships larger than even the Imperator, it is safe to say that Kuat is capable of churning out thousands of ISDs in one year.

However, there are satellite yards under Kuat aren't there?

[Darth Tanner]

0.7% of 10 quadrillion (which would mean Coruscant alone would make up a large fraction of the Galactic population) is 70 trillion, not billion. 74 billion would be more like 0.00074% of the population, a trivial number.

Oops , Like all good people I'll blame my calculator

[VT-16]

There's Rothana, I believe they've been referenced in the OT era and beyond. Acclamators keep getting pumped out in EAW (instead of being treated as rare in-game), so that's one line of production.

And there's been some other transports also with Rothana-esque designs. According to AOTC:ICS, those arrow-shaped tower-modules go on a lot of smaller Rothana-models, so these would account for similar designs seen later on.

There's also Fondor.

And in "Illustrated Guide to the SW Galaxy", Rendili and Loronar were mentioned alongside Kuat as building bigger battleships than ISDs (which were also constructed around Coruscant).
In Rendili's case, it would have to be something unheard of previously, as the biggest for them so far was the Victory SDs and Dreadnaught cruisers, both smaller than ISDs. Loronar has the orbital battlestations and Torpedo Spheres, but were apparently building conventional warships bigger than ISDs, too.

[Connor MacLeod]

KDY has yards in other systems than just their own, I believe.

Anyhow, part of the reason why the Empire's fleet is alot smaller than it could be is probably because of interference by the Senate. Palpy has to play on their fears and concerns of external threats (Separatist holdouts, Rebellion, extragalactic invaders and whatnot) to get the budget for building shit. And we knew for a fact since ANH that he didn't have total control to do everything he wanted, even if he had largely crippled the Senate. Even with their loss of political power, many of those sectors still represented vast concentrations of military might in their own regards - might Palpy would have no chance of overcoming (especially if they banded together.)

So rather than start up an arms race that would be costly to him in the end, he went with trying to buidl somethign bigger and better than anyone else had, ,hoping that its existencec would force others into the same situation that he couldn't do by simply swamping them militarily.

[PainRack]

Again, trivial compared to the scale of the economy and population were discussing.

And? The Imperial navy is not the sole recipient of the Empire budget. Other concerns ranging from intelligence, army, stormtrooper corps and government concerns from holonet and whatever has to be accounted for.

The Imperial navy has to work within its means and we can clearly see that despite the Rebellion declearation, the Empire military was not over-militarised.

You build a fleet with its intended mission in mind. The destroyers and frigates are for patrolling and general security and to combat pirates and, and the like. The cruisers, battlecruiser, battleships, and dreadnaughts are to deter rebellious moff’s and admirals. Also we know for a fact that the fleet was built in part to combat extra-galactic threats. The numbers put out by the EU aren't even close to enough, given the amount of space that has to patrolled and secured.

Yet, there were over 1 million warships in the Imperial fleet at any min count and its likely to be much larger. The ISDs and other destroyers were clearly some not for patrolling and general security, that role and escort duties for commercial shipping was left to the lesser forces like carrack cruisers, neb b frigates and whatnot.

They were designed for military operations solely, and that has to be tied to the number of larger vessels, as well as the need to form squadrons worth of capital ships for raiding/fleet purposes.

[FTeik]

Yet according to the RASB the empire "doubled" the size of its military forces in the time from ANH to ROTJ.

Personally i think, that there is a quater-million ISDs and perhaps a million of Star Destroyers total at the height of the empire around.

[Spartan]

PainRack wrote:

And? The Imperial navy is not the sole recipient of the Empire budget. Other concerns ranging from intelligence, army, stormtrooper corps and government concerns from holonet and whatever has to be accounted for.

And? The cost of the itelligence, army, stormtrooper corps would pale in comparision to the naval budget. The intelligence community shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the military buget. There are governmental concerns, but most systems and sector are relatively self-sufficent. Only the most expensive of services need to be provided by the galactic government: defense, dissaster relief, etc. Which is exactly what real life national governments do, ie pool funds for projects to expensive for the regional and municipal governments. Have a look at the US federal buget sometime, or better yet look at the historical bugets from the vietnam and cold war periods for a slightly better comparission. Look at the big ticket items and note how the defense buget is a third of the federal budget. Next note how small the federal budget is to the actual gross national product of the US. Unless you have evidence that the GE spends huge amount of their GNP on entitlements, your going to have a difficult time justifying the small size of the EU imperial fleet due to fiscal problems alone. Politics is a far more likely solution, if we really want to be slaves to minimalistic numbers for the imperial fleet.

The Imperial navy has to work within its means and we can clearly see that despite the Rebellion declearation, the Empire military was not over-militarised.

There was plenty of funding, it was the Imperial senate that restrained Palpatine's ambitions. He had to hide the truth about the deathstar after all, and it cost the equivalent of a mere 20 sector groups. WEG's description of the imperial fleet doubling in size between ANH and TESB, despite the virtual non-existence of the rebel threat. The rebel alliance was never a concern in the first place, the open rebellion of entire Sectors of space however was. The Empire can only be over-militarised if they do not need the forces that they are fielding. Given the seperatist example or even the Mon cal example they clearly do need an overwhelming national presence. Remind me again what happened the last time the Galactic Government, short changed on military spending.

Yet, there were over 1 million warships in the Imperial fleet at any min count and its likely to be much larger. The ISDs and other destroyers were clearly some not for patrolling and general security, that role and escort duties for commercial shipping was left to the lesser forces like carrack cruisers, neb b frigates and whatnot.

You'll have to direct me to where I stated that star destroyer and star frigate escort commercial shipping. ISD's and the other destroyers were ofcourse designed for combat; but in peace time there mission profile is to patrol and provide general security to their assigned Sector of space.

They were designed for military operations solely, and that has to be tied to the number of larger vessels, as well as the need to form squadrons worth of capital ships for raiding/fleet purposes.

Your realize ofcoure that all naval vessels are intended for military operations, including the tiny standard-scale vessels like carracks, and strike cruisers. ISD's do conduct partols, otherwise what would you call the the mission the ISD's at the beging of TESB were performing, as they conducted independent operations in searched of the rebels. They perfom the missions that you state also. In real life virtually any naval vessels can conduct patrols or show the flag. What I'm saying is that the vast heavy naval vessels in the fleet exist to prevent the open rebellion of whole sectors of space. If the GE were stable, rather that a ready to self destruct at a moments notice mess that Palpatine constructed. They would not have needed any thing bigger that an ISD to maintain order. Heck, even the ISD design is overkill.

[PainRack]

And? The cost of the itelligence, army, stormtrooper corps would pale in comparision to the naval budget. The intelligence community shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as the military buget. There are governmental concerns, but most systems and sector are relatively self-sufficent. Only the most expensive of services need to be provided by the galactic government: defense, dissaster relief, etc. Which is exactly what real life national governments do, ie pool funds for projects to expensive for the regional and municipal governments. Have a look at the US federal buget sometime, or better yet look at the historical bugets from the vietnam and cold war periods for a slightly better comparission. Look at the big ticket items and note how the defense buget is a third of the federal budget. Next note how small the federal budget is to the actual gross national product of the US. Unless you have evidence that the GE spends huge amount of their GNP on entitlements, your going to have a difficult time justifying the small size of the EU imperial fleet due to fiscal problems alone. Politics is a far more likely solution, if we really want to be slaves to minimalistic numbers for the imperial fleet.

Why on earth would the Imperial Army and other defence budgets be insignificant? Training and manpower would had comprised a huge component of the budget, especially since we learn from Han Solo trilogy and other sources that Imperial training is run on multiple worlds, as opposed to just one planet. hell, for the stormtrooper corps on Carida, apparently, they have to go on livefire missions before they can graduate(ala Starships troopers).

The navy is not the sole recipient of the armed forces budgets. Imperial garrisons, subsidies of localised armed forces, transports, sensors facillities , intelligence budgets which include a vast array of unmarked freighters and specialised droids, all these add up.

There was plenty of funding, it was the Imperial senate that restrained Palpatine's ambitions. He had to hide the truth about the deathstar after all, and it cost the equivalent of a mere 20 sector groups. WEG's description of the imperial fleet doubling in size between ANH and TESB, despite the virtual non-existence of the rebel threat. The rebel alliance was never a concern in the first place, the open rebellion of entire Sectors of space however was. The Empire can only be over-militarised if they do not need the forces that they are fielding. Given the seperatist example or even the Mon cal example they clearly do need an overwhelming national presence. Remind me again what happened the last time the Galactic Government, short changed on military spending.

yet, WEG attests that the Executor and ISD projects consumed a significant portion of the Empire research allocation. Even accounting for miminalism, the Imperial navy and its rapid expansion in comparison to the Galactic Republic was atonishing. There would have been budgetary pressure to restrain the imperial fleet.

This explains why the navy decided to go for "big" ships, or even Death Stars as opposed to just spamming ISDs. Such a design philosophy also enjoyed more prestige and put more cash in the teeth department of the Imperial navy, as opposed to support.

You'll have to direct me to where I stated that star destroyer and star frigate escort commercial shipping. ISD's and the other destroyers were ofcourse designed for combat; but in peace time there mission profile is to patrol and provide general security to their assigned Sector of space.

You stated that the destroyers and frigates were meant to destroy pirates. Consider this, even the presence of a Koloth battlecruiser in the attack on Paelleon Chimaera was relatively ineffective. Furthermore, we have seen various anti-pirate missions executed before, most of them do not involve ISDs.

ISDs are held for general patrols and combat duties. Considering a need to combat piracy as well as growing illegal activities in the fringe, smaller vessels would had been expanded first. Once they had been built, the Admirality could had expanded the destroyer fleet. However, we know from the ISB that they chose to rapidly expand the big ships category first, ranging from the Executor to other unknown classes.

Reasons? They were more prestigous and obviously enjoyed more political support amongst the politicians and upper leadership of the admirality.

The argument of "mission" is already met by the tier of support vessels. The need to cow sectors and other planets would NOT have been met by the ISD, despite the orginal databank claims. It would have been met by super vessels.

Your realize ofcoure that all naval vessels are intended for military operations, including the tiny standard-scale vessels like carracks, and strike cruisers. ISD's do conduct partols, otherwise what would you call the the mission the ISD's at the beging of TESB were performing, as they conducted independent operations in searched of the rebels. They perfom the missions that you state also.

My apologies. My meaning was that destroyers would had been stuck to fleet duties primarily and would had been expanded according to the needs of the fleet. Duties like anti-pirate missions and against other criminal duties would had been met by smaller support vessels.

In real life virtually any naval vessels can conduct patrols or show the flag. What I'm saying is that the vast heavy naval vessels in the fleet exist to prevent the open rebellion of whole sectors of space. If the GE were stable, rather that a ready to self destruct at a moments notice mess that Palpatine constructed. They would not have needed any thing bigger that an ISD to maintain order. Heck, even the ISD design is overkill.

And? I thought your initial argument was to rebut Noble Ire statement that seven digit ISDs were probably not present, by claiming that the Imperial economy could achieve such figures.

My argument was that this was probably true, as the monies required to support such a large fleet would had been instead spent on creating the larger supervessels that the navy admired, as opposed to more numerous destroyers.