Scimitar's shields and Federation/Romulan weapon strength

[Gil Hamilton]

OK, I was watching Nemesis and I noticed something about the ramming scene which may have some ramifications (hee hee) about Romulan and Federation weapons strength.

What happen was that the Scimitar had a big ole shoot out with the Enterprise-E and two Valedore-class Romulan Warbirds (for lack of a better name, I'm calling them Valedores). After a confrontation with the Enterprise and the two Valedores, the scimitar destroyed one Valedore, disabled another, and crippled the Enterprise (including opening the bridge to vacuum, looks like putting the bridge right up against the hull caught up with them, bye bye Mr. Red Shirt).
At this point, according to bridge reports, that the Enterprise has exhausted their supply of torpedoes, their phasers are at 4%, their warpcore was knocked out in the first shot, and their shields are dead. Not only that, but after taking a 3 ship beating, the Scimitar's shields are still at 70%. Shinzon decides, well, I've whipped the Enterprise, so I'm going to park in front of him and look Picard dead in the eyes before I kill him. This means that he parked the Scimitar directly in front of the ship and stopped dead relative to the Enterprise very very close to it. Picard says "OK, he thinks he knows what I'm going to do... so I'm going to ram him". After mustering all the juice the Enterprise had, the Enterprise slooooooooowly lurched forward. Slow enough, even though the Scimitar is very very close to the Enterprise, Shinzon has time to be shocked and command "Hard to aft!" and wallow back ineffectually a bit before the Enterprise hit him. The Enterprise goes effortless through the shields (the shields didn't even flare up when the Enterprise rammed it). The Enterprise dug in a good bit too before going down.

Now, this is kind of ugly for the Federation and Romulans weapons.
What do we know.
We know that the Scimitar successfully engaged the Enterprise and two Valedores, and were only down to 70% shields.
We know that the Enterprise used up all of their torpedoes and their phaser banks were exhaused.
We know that alot of the Enterprises weapons missed, but by my count at least 8 photon torpedoes, 3 quantum torpedoes, and several phaser hits scored, along with several dozen disruptor hits from the Romulans.
We know that the Enterprise hit the Scimitar slowly. It was only a kilometer, if that in front of the Scimitar when the Enterprise rammed it, and even then it took 15 seconds or so for the Enterprise to hit the damn thing.
We know that the Scimitar's shields didn't stop the Enterprise at all, though they were still up. We know this because Shinzon, rather than demanding that they raise shields again when the Enterprise wallowed at them commanded they try and dodge.

So lets make the Scimitar's shields "x".
The whole beat down the Scimitar took lowered their shields 30%.
Ergo, in total, the weapons did ".3x", this at least included 8 photon torpedo hits, 3 quantum torpedo hits, and dozens of phaser and disruptor hits.
The Enterprise wallowed forward and rammed the Scimitar, it must have overcome their shields first in order to get in. Since the Scimitar was down to 70%, the Enterprise must have hit it with ".7x", most like much more since the Enterprise when straight through without trouble.

So at minimum, the Enterprise slowly ramming it did ".7x" and all the weapons (as listed above) did ".3x". ".7x" is 2 and a third times as much as ".3x". The Enterprise crossed about a kilometer to hit the Scimitar and did it over 15 or so it was travelling at 66.666m/s. The only listing I could find for the Soveriegns mass is 3,500,000 metric tonnes (or 3.5 billion kilograms). If someone has a better mass, please provide it.
If we plug this into the KE equation (.5mv²), we get a kinetic energy of 7.778e12 J. Since, thats at minimum out ".7x", and that's two and a third more than the ".3x", our ".3x" is 3.334e12 J.

Than means the beatdown we saw the Valedores and Enterprise deal the Scimitar was only 3.334e12 joules, which I don't need to tell you is very very very poor.

Obviously, given what we know about StarTrek, the Enterprise shouldn't have done anything with it's silly ram, but it cut right through the Scimitars shields and hull. Really, the person who wrote the scene screwed the pooch, but there we are.

Thoughts? Problems? Corrections? Death threats?

[Shinova]

It's probably just a foulup on part of the film-makers.

Or it may be true that physical objects can penetrate shields, but that wouldn't explain how forcefields can be used to block people and such. (One response to this may be that shields and forcefields use different mechanisms)

[Darth Wong]

What about propulsion? The E-E may be crippled and thus excused for its pitiful acceleration, but why can't the Scimitar easily get away from it with its vaunted 0.7c super-engines?

[Gil Hamilton]

What about propulsion? The E-E may be crippled and thus excused for its pitiful acceleration, but why can't the Scimitar easily get away from it with its vaunted 0.7c super-engines?

Well, all I know is that the Enterprise limped forward, then it cut to Shinzon on the bridge who got a look of suprise and went "Quickly! Hard to aft!" Then it cut to the Scimitar sort of wallowing backwards a little, then the Enterprise hit it. I don't know about any 0.7c super-engines, but I know know that even after the beating it took from the two Valedores and the Enterprise, it's shields were still pretty full and was in decent shape, except for it's cloak. The Scimitar didn't strike me as a particularly nimble ship, despite it's bat like appearance.

[Hammer]

Maybe it got through because it was going so slowly... the "Gungan shield syndrome".

After all, Trek weapons are supposed to be well up in the megaton range. I'd think it pretty abysmal if a supposedly multi-megaton shield could be overwhelmed by such a KE level.

Or maybe the shields were down... Schizon had battered the Enterprise to a pulp and was full of his own hubris and over-confidence (Your overconfidence is your weakness...) He may have come in and parked right in front of the Enterprise and dropped the shields as a gloating measure in how much of a threat the Enterprise wasn't, at that point in time.

Or else the film makers screwed up.

[Mad]

Maybe it's a Reman shield problem... the E-E was hit by debris and the shields held. Of course, that debris took the shields from 90% or so down to 10%.

The Enterprise also seemed to take the impact a bit better. Perhaps Reman SIF's are worse, as well, when dealing with physical impacts than Federation ships. That doesn't mean Federation ships take 'em well, just that Reman ships take 'em worse.

[Alferd Packer]

Perhaps trek combat shields are infact designed to withstand torpedoes and phasers/disruptors only, and they rely on their navigational deflectors and SIF to take care of other objects. Anything bigger would probably be tractored out of the way or blasted to smithereens.

When the ships are at warp or high impulse, they supposedly have a subspace field around them, which lowers their mass, correct? Or at least that's one rationalization I think I read somewhere. This would mean that at warp most debris wouldn't be a concern to them.

As for the ridiculously slow speed, I think I can be attributed to the massive pounding the E-E took for a solid fifteen minutes. At the end, they were almost dead in the water: no torpedoes, no shields, very limited phasers, no warp drive. Picard tells Geordi to divert whatever's left into the engines, including life support. It very well may be their ludicrously slow velocity was all that they could muster. Perhaps because the warp drive was offline, they couldn't generate a subspace field and lighten their mass, and were reduced to a relative snail's pace.

[Darth Wong]

Perhaps trek combat shields are infact designed to withstand torpedoes and phasers/disruptors only, and they rely on their navigational deflectors and SIF to take care of other objects. Anything bigger would probably be tractored out of the way or blasted to smithereens.

No, in "The Hunted" we saw something bounce off the shields. Same thing in "A Call to Arms" (a light Cardie vessel exploded against DS9's shields; too big to bounce without collapsing its internal structure).

When the ships are at warp or high impulse, they supposedly have a subspace field around them, which lowers their mass, correct? Or at least that's one rationalization I think I read somewhere. This would mean that at warp most debris wouldn't be a concern to them.

At warp, they are warping space around them. Debris would naturally flow with the space. People who try to use warp-speed as proof of enormously strong deflectors are missing the whole concept of warp drive.

As for the ridiculously slow speed, I think I can be attributed to the massive pounding the E-E took for a solid fifteen minutes. At the end, they were almost dead in the water: no torpedoes, no shields, very limited phasers, no warp drive. Picard tells Geordi to divert whatever's left into the engines, including life support. It very well may be their ludicrously slow velocity was all that they could muster. Perhaps because the warp drive was offline, they couldn't generate a subspace field and lighten their mass, and were reduced to a relative snail's pace.

Sure, but that wouldn't explain why the Scimitar couldn't easily get away.

[Darth Wong]

I wonder when Crossover Maniac will leap in to say that the "visuals were distorted", and the Scimitar was actually 40,000km away

[Alferd Packer]

No, in "The Hunted" we saw something bounce off the shields. Same thing in "A Call to Arms" (a light Cardie vessel exploded against DS9's shields; too big to bounce without collapsing its internal structure).

No shit? Oh, well, there you go. Learn something new every day. Hmm, I call shenanigans on the movie's director, then!

At warp, they are warping space around them. Debris would naturally flow with the space. People who try to use warp-speed as proof of enormously strong deflectors are missing the whole concept of warp drive.

I figured as much. The ship doesn't have to worry about normal(small) debris, just the big stuff.

Sure, but that wouldn't explain why the Scimitar couldn't easily get away.

Well, not necessarily. It takes Shinzon several seconds, maybe as many as five or six, to realize what the E-E is doing. He then yells "Hard to port!" as the E-E gets closer. We then see the E-E pick up speed as Shinzon's ship slowly begins to turn to the left. I guess he was merely using manuevering thrusters to position himself so as to avoid the E-E.

After the ships collide, Shinzon orders full aft thrusters. Cut to an external shot of several thrusters emerging from recesses in the hull and firing. Since these thrusters were recessed and took several seconds to emerge and fire fully, Shinzon might've recognized the futility of trying to back away from the approaching E-E on its initial run, and attempted rather to dodge it.

[Master of Ossus]

The E-E's damaged state has nothing to do with its KE, as calculated here. It may help explain the ridiculously slow collision speed, but it does not explain the lack of effective shielding and armor on the Scimitar.

Just so you guys know, the amount of energy calculated to be the total amount of damage done to the Scimitar is piddly. In fact, the TOTAL (including both the E-E impact and ALL of the weapons fire) from this calculation reveals that its shields were not even resistant to a single megaton of energy.

[Typhonis 1]

um "Hard to Aft"??? dont the frelling writers know that Aft is backwards he should hav called full reverse

[Master of Ossus]

um "Hard to Aft"??? dont the frelling writers know that Aft is backwards he should hav called full reverse

I believe that he actually said, "Hard to PORT," in the movie, but it makes no difference for the calculations.

[Gil Hamilton]

Or maybe the shields were down... Schizon had battered the Enterprise to a pulp and was full of his own hubris and over-confidence (Your overconfidence is your weakness...) He may have come in and parked right in front of the Enterprise and dropped the shields as a gloating measure in how much of a threat the Enterprise wasn't, at that point in time.

Or else the film makers screwed up.

Well, we know that the shields were up at the time. Just previous to the Enterprise ramming the Scimitar, Geordi called out that the shields of the Scimitar were at 70%. I don't see how he could have measured the Scimitars shields if Shinzon had turned them off.

I believe that he actually said, "Hard to PORT," in the movie, but it makes no difference for the calculations.

I'm almost certain Shinzon said "Hard to aft!" when the Enterprise was about to hit it, but I'm willing to admit that I'm mistaken.

[Gil Hamilton]

Anyway, as a good laugh for you all, in my mirror thread over at Spacebattles, the Trekkie folks their now are all claiming that the Enterprise didn't overcome the shields at all... but rather that StarTrek shields don't stop starships from entering them, so they didn't effect the Enterprise.

Take this as you will.

[Master of Ossus]

Anyway, as a good laugh for you all, in my mirror thread over at Spacebattles, the Trekkie folks their now are all claiming that the Enterprise didn't overcome the shields at all... but rather that StarTrek shields don't stop starships from entering them, so they didn't effect the Enterprise.

Take this as you will.

Someone point out to them that, if this were the case, the assaults on Deep Space Nine should be easy for Dominion and Klingon forces. A ship could be sent to enter the shields of the station, and then open fire on it from the inside. Additionally, in one of the most useful examples of a ST episode ever (I use this one for everything), "A Time to Stand," Sisko and company are forced to wait for the shields of a ketracel white depot to lower before warping out of the area. If the shields were not meant to stop other starships, this would not have been necessary. Moreover, in the same episode I believe that they had to ask for the shields to be lowered (ala. RotJ) in order to approach the station.

[Mad]

Anyway, as a good laugh for you all, in my mirror thread over at Spacebattles, the Trekkie folks their now are all claiming that the Enterprise didn't overcome the shields at all... but rather that StarTrek shields don't stop starships from entering them, so they didn't effect the Enterprise.

Well, we saw the debris hit the E-E's shields, so Federation shields can block stuff. (Anyone wanna calculate that? The hit took out 80% or so of the shield integrity, so we're looking at a good benchmark for KE handling for Federation shields.)

But perhaps the Reman shields are really sucky at it. The Scimitar was said to have two shield systems. Perhaps to defend against torpedo impacts, there are two shield layers. One screws with the torpedo and causes it to detonate, and the second absorbs the energy release.

There's a good number of reasons not to do that, but given the targets the Reman were going against, it shouldn't have been a problem. Perhaps the shields were optimized this way so they could last longer against energy weapons, instead of wasting power against potential KE attacks.

Well, it's one possible explanation, anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

Would their "mass lightening" be active? If not, that could:

1.) Make the calcs generous (unlikely, I think - maybe I'm just being fair.)

2.) Explain the shitty acceleration/velocity

[Master of Ossus]

Would their "mass lightening" be active? If not, that could:

1.) Make the calcs generous (unlikely, I think - maybe I'm just being fair.)

2.) Explain the shitty acceleration/velocity

If the mass lightening effect was active, it would make the calculations enormously generous.

[Anarchist Bunny]

We know that after the whole fight, the Scimitar's shields were still at 70%, and if I remember correctly, it took 6 Q Torp hits onscreen, and atleast 13 on screen torp hits, and many phaser shots. And probly a lot more offscreen. (seeing how they E-E was seemingly out of Q Torps after those six, and that seems absurd, although they may not have been carrying a full load, seeing how it was not war time, and they weren't near any scheduled missions, but still 6 seems a lot short) Ofcourse we don't have any idea how many [Q]torps hit because of the events in the ship, or if the Scimitar's primary shields were down, and that it's secondary shields were the ones at 70%, and perhaps these shields were only made to absorb the burst of energy that make it through the shields when a torp hits them(like how they disable weapons and propulsion in many instances in TNG/VOY/DS9, and how the Sci took out the E-E's warp core, with out taking out the shields) to prevent crippling open shots and not designed to take physical hits.

[Thunderfire]

Maybe it got through because it was going so slowly... the "Gungan shield syndrome".

This is a common weakness for shields. This even makes sense if
you want to retrieve fighters/shuttles when your shield are up.

[Darth Wong]

Maybe it got through because it was going so slowly... the "Gungan shield syndrome".

This is a common weakness for shields. This even makes sense if
you want to retrieve fighters/shuttles when your shield are up.

The Gungan shields were penetrated by slow movement; they were penetrated by droids who were in contact with the ground AND moving slowly. That's why the Tradefed hovertanks could not move in slowly.

[Col. Crackpot]

did anyone notice that the enterprise now seems to have hull conforming shields?!?! was it that way in FC and Insurection as well? what happened to those damn foolish bubble shields?

[apocolypse]

IIRC E-E had hull-huggers in both other movies as well.

[Kamakazie Sith]

IIRC E-E had hull-huggers in both other movies as well.

Not in FC, but the shield profile did get smaller in Insurrection.