The idiocy that is Star Wars astropolitics

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I started out on this site at a friends recommendation pointing out how absurd the political situations in Nemesis were, which got me thinking about how even worse and more stupid they are in the new Star Wars films.

In fact, not only are the astropolitics ridiculous, so is the fact that despite taking place in a large galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone else.

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd. For comparison, the North Vietnamese Army launched roughly 200,000 men into South Vietnam in 1972 and failed to conquer it, but that number is going to be sufficient to police the whole galaxy? Please. Score one for Lucas's crappy writing.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer? And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

I could go on for quite some time, but I'll just start with these points. In the meantime, I'll just travel to one of the four planets that apparently make up the entire Star Wars universe.

[Shinova]

*Looks up and sees a bunch of fireballs raining down from the heavens*


Watch out. The people on this board are extremely nasty when it comes to rebuttals.

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I can imagine an awful lot..I don't care, as long as they bring some serious counter-arguments to the table.

[Marcus]

~looks around~

~waits for the other shoe~

[Shinova]

I started out on this site at a friends recommendation pointing out how absurd the political situations in Nemesis were, which got me thinking about how even worse and more stupid they are in the new Star Wars films.

In fact, not only are the astropolitics ridiculous, so is the fact that despite taking place in a large galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone else.

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd. For comparison, the North Vietnamese Army launched roughly 200,000 men into South Vietnam in 1972 and failed to conquer it, but that number is going to be sufficient to police the whole galaxy? Please. Score one for Lucas's crappy writing.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer? And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

I could go on for quite some time, but I'll just start with these points. In the meantime, I'll just travel to one of the four planets that apparently make up the entire Star Wars universe.

I'll try to make some counter-points:


1. 200,000 units at hand, but there were a million more on the way. More would've followed after that.

2. Luke was born after the Empire god jurisdiction of the galaxy. Additionally, Luke probably hates the empire cause they killed his family at that time.

3. Anakin never knew he had children, and if he did he never knew where they were.

4. About C-3PO: threepio might have worked as a moisture farmer somewhere else after the memory wipe. Additionally, owen might not have recognized him and R2 because it's kinda hard to tell one droid of the same make from another and threepio's only been on tatooine for a little while.

5. About doid-owning: the droids were more anakin's than obi-wan's. And I don't believe Obi-Wan ever specifically bought the droids. And again: how can you tell one droid of the same model from another?

[RedImperator]

The only response I can think of right now is to point out that "unit" might not mean one individual soldier, but that's pretty thin. You have to rationalize it like that if you want it to make sense, though.

[neoolong]

By the way, how much did Obi-Wan actually interact with the droids beyond a work related capacity. The next time he will see them, barring Ep. III, is decades later. I don't remember him spending much time with either of them.

[Moff Jerjerrod]

I started out on this site at a friends recommendation pointing out how absurd the political situations in Nemesis were, which got me thinking about how even worse and more stupid they are in the new Star Wars films.

In fact, not only are the astropolitics ridiculous, so is the fact that despite taking place in a large galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone else.

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd. For comparison, the North Vietnamese Army launched roughly 200,000 men into South Vietnam in 1972 and failed to conquer it, but that number is going to be sufficient to police the whole galaxy? Please. Score one for Lucas's crappy writing.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer? And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

I could go on for quite some time, but I'll just start with these points. In the meantime, I'll just travel to one of the four planets that apparently make up the entire Star Wars universe.

I'll try to make some counter-points:


1. 200,000 units at hand, but there were a million more on the way. More would've followed after that.

2. Luke was born after the Empire god jurisdiction of the galaxy. Additionally, Luke probably hates the empire cause they killed his family at that time.

3. Anakin never knew he had children, and if he did he never knew where they were.

4. About C-3PO: threepio might have worked as a moisture farmer somewhere else after the memory wipe. Additionally, owen might not have recognized him and R2 because it's kinda hard to tell one droid of the same make from another and threepio's only been on tatooine for a little while.

5. About doid-owning: the droids were more anakin's than obi-wan's. And I don't believe Obi-Wan ever specifically bought the droids. And again: how can you tell one droid of the same model from another?

Some good counterpoints, Shinova, many of which have occured to me previously. Again, perhaps Anakin didn't know he had any children, that is uncertain at this point. But he did know he had a brother. And he was familiar with Tatooine, so I would assume that at some point the planet would've been searched as a potential hiding place.

If we are to use Episodes I and II as an example, apparently all of the 3PO units have distinctive voices and personalities. Perhaps there are a large number of effeminate ones we haven't been introduced to, I just find the entire concept that he would hide Luke at Darth Vader's brother's house incredibly stupid.

Yes, it would seem that Luke was born after the Empire took over. However, he utters that he hates the Empire long before his relatives are killed by the Stormtroopers. There is nothing explained or demonstrated that illustrates what exactly the Empire is doing that is so bad on Tatooine.

And even if Luke was born after Palpatine's ascendancy, I would assume that the large number of those in the Rebellion weren't. By all accounts, the Old Republic was a bloated, failed entity that allowed its citizens to fall under the tyranny of slavery, while it wasn't busy being corrupt. Why would you support a rebel entity led by Mon Mothma, who apparently has been forgotten by George Lucas, who is simply a representation of that failed system?

[RedImperator]

[quote="Shinova]I'll try to make some counter-points:


1. 200,000 units at hand, but there were a million more on the way. More would've followed after that.[/quote]

And at one million full member worlds, that's 1.2 clonetroopers per planet. The Separatist movement is said to have "thousands" of participating systems. If we're extremely generous and say it's only 1000 systems, that's 1200 clonetroopers per planet. Unless there's billions of clonetroopers coming down the pipe, this "Grand Army of the Republic" is going to be good for limited police actions only. To make it make sense, you need to assume "units" means batallions or divisions, at least. If you need your fans to interpret your dialogue to make it make sense, you haven't done your job as a writer.

2. Luke was born after the Empire god jurisdiction of the galaxy. Additionally, Luke probably hates the empire cause they killed his family at that time.

Luke states he hates the Empire before he discovers Owen and Beru are dead. The viewer sees the behavior of Darth Vader, the fate of the Lars family, and the destruction of Alderran and is supposed to assume the Empire is just evil and must have done something to piss Luke off, which worked until TPM showed us life was worse on Tattooine under the Old Republic.

3. Anakin never knew he had children, and if he did he never knew where they were.

"No, Luke. I am your father." He obviously learned at some point. Though it's possible he didn't know until he heard the name of the pilot who blew up the Death Star, and recognized the last name.

4. About C-3PO: threepio might have worked as a moisture farmer somewhere else after the memory wipe. Additionally, owen might not have recognized him and R2 because it's kinda hard to tell one droid of the same make from another and threepio's only been on tatooine for a little while.

No real argument here. Owen never saw R2 for more than a minute, anyway.

5. About doid-owning: the droids were more anakin's than obi-wan's. And I don't believe Obi-Wan ever specifically bought the droids. And again: how can you tell one droid of the same model from another?

Again, no argument. I don't remember Obi-Wan interacting with either droid much. Both seem like fairly common types.

[neoolong]

[quote="Moff Jerjerrod]And even if Luke was born after Palpatine's ascendancy, I would assume that the large number of those in the Rebellion weren't. By all accounts, the Old Republic was a bloated, failed entity that allowed its citizens to fall under the tyranny of slavery, while it wasn't busy being corrupt.[/quote]

Except it didn't. The Republic doesn't exist for those in the Outlying areas. It pretty much isn't a part of the Republic. Therefore, the people aren't exactly citizens of the Republic that became slaves. I doubt most Republic citizens even knew about the slavery on Tatooine, or even cared.

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Perhaps those in the Republic didn't know about the slavery on Tatooine, but they did know it was a corrupt and bloated entity. Every reference to the Old Republic is about how much it sucks! I have illustrated an example of how the Empire made life for the citizens of Tatooine better, in removing slavery. What precisely did the Republic do that was so great, besides not wear black and look menacing?

[Shinova]

Perhaps those in the Republic didn't know about the slavery on Tatooine, but they did know it was a corrupt and bloated entity. Every reference to the Old Republic is about how much it sucks! I have illustrated an example of how the Empire made life for the citizens of Tatooine better, in removing slavery. What precisely did the Republic do that was so great, besides not wear black and look menacing?

In its heyday, it was probably a great republican government (democratic isn't exactly the correct term here). And I believe it's also existed for thousands of years.

The Empire has also done atrocious things that people wouldn't have seen during the Republic's days, like the repression of personal freedoms.

Would you rather live in an imperfect republic or a harsh dictatorship?

[neoolong]

Perhaps those in the Republic didn't know about the slavery on Tatooine, but they did know it was a corrupt and bloated entity. Every reference to the Old Republic is about how much it sucks! I have illustrated an example of how the Empire made life for the citizens of Tatooine better, in removing slavery. What precisely did the Republic do that was so great, besides not wear black and look menacing?

Not dissolve the Senate and not blow up worlds.

Under the Republic there was at least some semblance of a democracy. And the only true corruption was actually at the head. The emergency powers that Palpatine was granted probably meant that he took over in that way, as opposed to corruption throughout the entire system. Besides, their still was slavery on Tatooine during the Empire. Jabba still had slave girls, remember?

[Marcus]

Well, in defense of the Old Republic, they respond to rebellions by sending in armies and elite forces.

This is as opposed to the Imperial method, which involves turning 3rd party planets (whatever their sympathies) into asteroid belts to make a statement.

Granted that the Republic as it existed at that time was probably beyond saving (Shades of Rome, or perhaps Foundation), one could wish for a somewhat less frightening intrim government.

[Ghost Rider]

Not only a bit of leap of logic to assume that when the Empire came into being Slavery disappeared from Tatooine, since when we next see Tatooine in Ep4 it's some 30 years into it. We haven't seen Ep3 thus have no clue if during sometime it does not formally enter the Republic.

Plus note that in EP1 Amidala is astounded that Slavery exists, thus Tatooine is such an Outer Rim world that it was barely of note to the Republic and in fact Republic Credits were not of high esteem. Pretty much states in a nut shell how little importance.

As for Vader and lineage...he has no idea of children. I mean they make ample showing that until ESB he really had no idea(the opening scroll says this). While we ourselves have no definitive proof, Lucas meant this to be until ESB(Splinter's of the Mind's Eye backs this correlation nicely.)

Also about R2 and 3P0...they are reminisent of cars...just because you might've owned that model...does not mean you are going to reconize a specific serial number you drove in by the color of the car 20 years later. Droids are far too common.

[neoolong]

Ghost Rider, the movies clearly show that even under the Empire, slavery still existed on Tantooine. Jabba had slaves remember. At the very least he was going to keep Leia.

[Ghost Rider]

Well Jabba...but as to all of Tatooine...it wasn't shown as common.

But true, and that and I doubt Oola was there just of her own free will persay.

[Crayz9000]

Moved to Pure Star Wars because it has nothing to do with Star Trek.

[Jim Raynor]

In fact, not only are the astropolitics ridiculous, so is the fact that despite taking place in a large galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone else.

I do agree that we've seen too many familiar faces from the OT.

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd. For comparison, the North Vietnamese Army launched roughly 200,000 men into South Vietnam in 1972 and failed to conquer it, but that number is going to be sufficient to police the whole galaxy? Please. Score one for Lucas's crappy writing.

I seriously doubt the clones were only military forces the Republic had, or even a significant portion of them, although this is the common belief among people who have watched this movie. The creation of the "Army of the Republic" probably does not mean that Republic had no armies before, but that this new clone army was to be the Republic's, not tied down to any of it's individual systems or sectors. It is my belief that the Republic had large fleets and armies before, but that most of it was in the hands of planetary or sectors defense forces and militias. Remember that in TPM the Trade Federation was sure that they would be crushed if the Republic used force, although that never happened due to regional politics. The clones were only a mobile, elite central military force that could respond to Separatist threats wherever they may appear.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

I don't think Luke's completely ignorant to the Empire's totalitarian actions throughout the galaxy, even on a remote backwater like Tatooine. Also, I don't believe Luke even hated the Empire until his aunt and uncle were killed. Remember how he wanted to join the naval academy in the beginning of ANH?

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

Maybe Vader doesn't want to be reminded of his painful memories. Remember that he had met the Lars while searching for his mother, who died shortly after. Tatooine is also probably the last place he'd suspect anything of importance to be happening at.

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer? And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

C-3PO's "first job" at a moisture farm doesn't exactly have to be the Lars' farm. It could have been a completely different place, but he wouldn't know any better since that could have been his first job after a memory wipe. Also, like others have said, 3PO and R2 units are quite common, and Own probably didn't think much of buying those 2 droids in ANH.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember

R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

Obi-wan could very well have known who those two droids were. However, he was trying to conceal the past from Luke, and was probably lying when he said that (or telling the truth, "from a certain point of view.").

[Vympel]

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd. For comparison, the North Vietnamese Army launched roughly 200,000 men into South Vietnam in 1972 and failed to conquer it, but that number is going to be sufficient to police the whole galaxy? Please. Score one for Lucas's crappy writing.

1: Is a 'unit' one clonetrooper, or a platoon/company/battalion/division? This may have been dealt with in the novel, I don't remember.

200,000 units ready at the moment. 1,000,000 more 'well on the way'. Unknown how many more after that, and how soon they'd follow.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

The Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery. As for slavery in the Empire, there isn't any canon evidence that it is legal. Just because Jabba has slaves as someone pointed out doesn't make it legal. Jabba is a crime lord.

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

Oh pahleeze. This kind of thing annoys me no end. You think Lucas doesn't know his own story?

1: It is not established that Vader knew he had children until Empire Strikes Back.
2: Even if he did, he doesn't know who they are, nor where they are: "they were hidden from your father when you were born"

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer? And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

Don't be a dullard. First, get your facts straight.

1: His first job was working on LOAD LIFTERS, very similar to moisture vaporators. There's one criticism straight out the window.
2: Owen's gonna remember some household appliance 20 years after the fact, and what's more, has a gold skin rather than the shitty grey skin he had 20 years ago?
3: Owen sees R2 for all of TWO SECONDS.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

The obvious flies right above your head I see.

1: "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid": because he DIDN'T own R2- Padme did. Duh. He has a bemused look on his face, he knows who the hell he's looking at.
2: C-3P0: even more pathetic criticism: Obi-Wan WASN'T with Qui-Gon when he found Anakin, and didn't even meet C-3P0 AT ALL in Attack of the Clones. He saved the galaxy with him? When?

I could go on for quite some time, but I'll just start with these points. In the meantime, I'll just travel to one of the four planets that apparently make up the entire Star Wars universe.

This is the best you can come up with? Maybe you'd prefer ST where it's a new planet every day? There's a reason for that. In ST, they explore the galaxy. In SW, they commute. Should I rattle off all the Star Wars movie planets?

1: Naboo
2: Coruscant
3: Tatooine
4: Hoth
5: Endor
6: Geonosis
7: Kamino
8: Bespin
9: Yavin
10: Dantooine (mentioned- ANH)
11: Anoat (mentioned- ESB)
12: Ord Mantell (mentioned- ESB)
13: Bogdon (sp? mentioned- AOTC)
14: Alderaan
15: Sullust (mentioned- ROTJ)
16: Kessel (mentioned- ANH)

[BenRG]

I remember reading (in a non-canonical book) some time ago the charter of the Rebel Alliance. Amongst Senator Mothma's grievances were the imposition of punative taxation. Basically, taxes had gone way beyond what was needed to maintain orderly galactic-scale goverment. With a tens of billions-strong millitary to support, the tax levels were crippling the galactic economy and making life nearly impossible for the ordinary citizen. The Empire was likely also seen as intrusive in the scale of the powers of its' civil policing and internal intelligence services.

Remember that Luke had contact with the Alliance through Biggs before ANH. So he would have also heard the Alliance-supplied (and possibly exaggerated) stories of atrocities by the Imperial millitary and the deliberate brutalisation of non-human species like the Wookies and the Mon Calmari. He would have 'hated' the Empire as a principle. Everyone knew that the "good ol' days" under the Republic were better, didn't they? Everyone would have forgotten the chaos in the Rim systems, the failure of law and order and the inability of the Jedi Order to maintain justice and freedom. What they remembered was the democracy, the lower tax rates and the absence of a Strike- and an Interdictor-class cruiser permanently in orbit ensuring that no ship lands or takes off without paying the mercantile license tax.

About Vader's failure to remember Luke and Leia: One intreguing suggestion that I heard was that, when Anakin went to face Palpatine for the last time, he knew or suspected that he would probably be turned to the Dark Side. He thus asked Yoda to erase his memories of his children (while Palpy knew about Padamé, he might not have known of the kids yet), then had Ben and Bail Organa take them into hiding.

After ANH, as soon as he heard the name 'Skywalker', Vader suspected that this was his child that had been hidden from him. However, he had no specific memories of them, and continued to have none, even when he turned back from the Dark Side.

[Moff Jerjerrod]

1: Is a 'unit' one clonetrooper, or a platoon/company/battalion/division? This may have been dealt with in the novel, I don't remember.

200,000 units ready at the moment. 1,000,000 more 'well on the way'. Unknown how many more after that, and how soon they'd follow.

This simply illustrates the poor writing/ crappy storytelling. We shouldn't need to refer back to the novelizations to decipher the troop size.

The Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery. As for slavery in the Empire, there isn't any canon evidence that it is legal. Just because Jabba has slaves as someone pointed out doesn't make it legal. Jabba is a crime lord.

Well, given that the Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery, that is hardly a ringing endorsement of its era. Again, I'm not defending the Empire here so much as illustrating that I see nothing positive about the Old Republic, given that it is constantly bashed in Episodes I and II. So, I do not see why anyone would logically wish to hand the reigns of power back to those who ruled an already failed political system.

Oh pahleeze. This kind of thing annoys me no end. You think Lucas doesn't know his own story?

1: It is not established that Vader knew he had children until Empire Strikes Back.
2: Even if he did, he doesn't know who they are, nor where they are: "they were hidden from your father when you were born"

So what? Vader knew he had a brother. Why on Earth would you give his son to Owen? Why on Earth would you hide on the planet of Vader's birth, given there are SO many others, as you so proudly illustrate later. This just illustrates my point about the four planet universe of Star Wars, and the fact that everyone must know everyone.

Don't be a dullard. First, get your facts straight.

1: His first job was working on LOAD LIFTERS, very similar to moisture vaporators. There's one criticism straight out the window.
2: Owen's gonna remember some household appliance 20 years after the fact, and what's more, has a gold skin rather than the shitty grey skin he had 20 years ago?
3: Owen sees R2 for all of TWO SECONDS.

First, I can't believe you would refer to someone as a "dullard" for using inaccurate Star Wars dialogue. Second, I believe they were "Binary Load Lifters". Third, you miss my overall point that it is stupid that all of these people are coming into contact with one another, be it for two seconds or five years. I am not literally saying there are only four planets in the SW universe, they only seem to use four of them. Why is Palpatine from Naboo? Why must Anakin build C-3PO? It's a large galaxy, not Cheers, everyone doesn't need to know everyone else.

The obvious flies right above your head I see.

1: "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid": because he DIDN'T own R2- Padme did. Duh. He has a bemused look on his face, he knows who the hell he's looking at.
2: C-3P0: even more pathetic criticism: Obi-Wan WASN'T with Qui-Gon when he found Anakin, and didn't even meet C-3P0 AT ALL in Attack of the Clones. He saved the galaxy with him? When?

Who is the dullard now? You are interpreting Obi Wan's facial expressions to support your argument! Was he not with R2D2 in the Phantom Menace when they escaped the Trade Federation's blockade? Did this not save Anakin and Padme's life, thus allowing Luke to be born? Did this not save the galaxy? (Or at least allow it to be handed back to the Old Republic rulers who had run it into the ground)

This is the best you can come up with? Maybe you'd prefer ST where it's a new planet every day? There's a reason for that. In ST, they explore the galaxy. In SW, they commute. Should I rattle off all the Star Wars movie planets?

1: Naboo
2: Coruscant
3: Tatooine
4: Hoth
5: Endor
6: Geonosis
7: Kamino
8: Bespin
9: Yavin
10: Dantooine (mentioned- ANH)
11: Anoat (mentioned- ESB)
12: Ord Mantell (mentioned- ESB)
13: Bogdon (sp? mentioned- AOTC)
14: Alderaan
15: Sullust (mentioned- ROTJ)
16: Kessel (mentioned- ANH)

Very impressive. Again, since it's such a huge galaxy, why must the action take place on Tatooine in the new films? Why must Palpatine be from the same place as Luke's mom? Why must Ben hide out on the planet where Anakin was born and C-3PO was created? It's a big galaxy out there, take advantage of it!

[Vympel]

This simply illustrates the poor writing/ crappy storytelling. We shouldn't need to refer back to the novelizations to decipher the troop size.

And your response to how we don't know how many more units are on the way is?

Well, given that the Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery, that is hardly a ringing endorsement of its era. Again, I'm not defending the Empire here so much as illustrating that I see nothing positive about the Old Republic, given that it is constantly bashed in Episodes I and II. So, I do not see why anyone would logically wish to hand the reigns of power back to those who ruled an already failed political system.

You are forgetting that Palpatine was a Sith Lord who influenced the Senate.

So what? Vader knew he had a brother. Why on Earth would you give his son to Owen? Why on Earth would you hide on the planet of Vader's birth, given there are SO many others, as you so proudly illustrate later. This just illustrates my point about the four planet universe of Star Wars, and the fact that everyone must know everyone.

Don't become one of those retards who repeats his original claims without modification!

I will repeat my points:

1: It is not established that Vader knew he had children until Empire Strikes Back.
2: Even if he did, he doesn't know who they are, nor where they are: "they were hidden from your father when you were born

Now then, please explain the logic behind giving a child not to the only family he has, but to a total stranger on a distant planet.

First, I can't believe you would refer to someone as a "dullard" for using inaccurate Star Wars dialogue. Second, I believe they were "Binary Load Lifters". Third, you miss my overall point that it is stupid that all of these people are coming into contact with one another, be it for two seconds or five years. I am not literally saying there are only four planets in the SW universe, they only seem to use four of them. Why is Palpatine from Naboo? Why must Anakin build C-3PO? It's a large galaxy, not Cheers, everyone doesn't need to know everyone else.

The criticism was valid. You argued that C-3P0 had performed the same job, when this was not what 3P0 thought- because he had his memory wiped in Episode III.

Why is "everyone knowing everyone else" (even though it's not true) a BAD thing? I prefer that Palpatine actually has some CONNECTION to Padme rather than being a nebulous, cliched, don't know who the hell he is or where he came from, typical boring villain. Why is C-3P0 being partially built by Anakin bad story-telling? You may not like it, but Star Wars is at it's core a personal story.

Who is the dullard now? You are interpreting Obi Wan's facial expressions to support your argument! Was he not with R2D2 in the Phantom Menace when they escaped the Trade Federation's blockade? Did this not save Anakin and Padme's life, thus allowing Luke to be born? Did this not save the galaxy? (Or at least allow it to be handed back to the Old Republic rulers who had run it into the ground)

ROFLMAO. No, C-3P0 wasn't there. Der.

Concession Accepted by the way- my argument is what Kenobi said, and it was true- from a certain point of view. Interesting, you seem incapable of saying "whoops, I didn't realize that". Maybe you prefer everything being preached at you directly like on ST.

Very impressive. Again, since it's such a huge galaxy, why must the action take place on Tatooine in the new films? Why must Palpatine be from the same place as Luke's mom? Why must Ben hide out on the planet where Anakin was born and C-3PO was created? It's a big galaxy out there, take advantage of it!

Take advantage of it? To WHAT PURPOSE?! How does it ADVANCE THE STORY.

[seanrobertson]

I started out on this site at a friends recommendation pointing out how absurd the political situations in Nemesis were, which got me thinking about how even worse and more stupid they are in the new Star Wars films.

In fact, not only are the astropolitics ridiculous, so is the fact that despite taking place in a large galaxy, everyone seems to know everyone else.

The only time I can reasonably say that this struck me as goofy
was when Padme's captain instantly recognized Tatooine as
Hutt territory (TPM).

Even then, however, wouldn't the Hutts be known throughout
the galaxy?

Let me start with Attack of the Clones. In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men.

Syfa Dias (sp), or Dooku posing as Dias did (under orders from
Palpatine).

Do we know that "units" refers to individual clone troopers?
Combat units could comprise dozens or hundreds of men.

Furthermore, clone troopers seemed to be the "crack"
infantrymen of the Republic. We don't know that their
ranks weren't supplemented by recruits, droids, etc.

[Raptor 597]

Well Jabba...but as to all of Tatooine...it wasn't shown as common.

But true, and that and I doubt Oola was there just of her own free will persay.

Actually, the Empire at the time during Endor were moving on the Hutt Empire too finally finish off the illegal Hutt Empire.