Is there a correlation between intelligence and atheism?

Pezzoni · Post by **Pezzoni** » 2006-06-06 05:42pm

A positive one, that is. (In case I've phrased myself badly above, I mean that more intelligent people are more likely to be atheistic.) The spawns from the fact that I stumbled across a website claiming so the other day, and wikipedia also appears to agree.

Oboviously this is not to say there are no intelligent religious people, but I thought it was an interesting article regardless.

Does anyone have any more studies that agree with / dispute this, and does it look to other here that the ones carried out above are reasonable and supportive of the question they set out to answer? Would you be happy to use them in a debate (oboviously on reasonable terms)?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-06-06 05:50pm

I'd say if nothing else it's a safe bet that there's a correlation between intelligence and not being taken in for obvious dupes telling you to believe in something that just doesn't happen in reality.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-06 05:52pm

It's not that intelligence causes atheism, but that it increases the likelihood of seeing through religious bullshit. Creationism is a fine example of an idea that is far more effective on stupid people than it is on intelligent people.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-06-06 06:27pm

Michael Shermer once said (I'm paraphrasing) that otherwise intelligent people can very easily believe stupid things because being intelligent, they can come up with a rational sounding explanation for their idiotic belief.

So, a person can be very smart, but in terms of atheism it probably happens more often in settings where the intelligent person is able to freely question certain beliefs. Places of strong religious indoctrination might produce the occasional Preacher's Daughter, but otherwise smart people in places like that will still be religious because they are programmed not to question the doctrine.

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-06-06 07:03pm

I would argue more than intelligence, it's education that increases the rate of being agnostic or atheist.. The two tend to go fairly together, Intelligence and Education.

Of course, I refer to 'real' education. Anyone can get a 'Ph.B' at 'Patriot University' like Kent Hovind.

Psycho Smiley · Post by **Psycho Smiley** » 2006-06-06 08:36pm

There's a collection of survey results here that supports an inverse relationship between education/intelligence and belief. Some may be duplicated on Wiki, but I didn't cross-check.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-06-07 01:14am

I know some very smart people who believe some very stupid things.

I would say that education is a better indicator of Atheism. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to be Atheist.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-06-07 01:36am

I think that many, if not most, probably are less intelligent than your average atheist. But I also think that they're really sort of thinking with their emotions and not the higher more rational parts of their brains. For whatever reason, they've learned to let their feelings guide them. That's why you can have someone who is pretty intelligent, but will also rationalizes things like burning bushes and/or talking snakes.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2006-06-07 01:37am

Superman wrote:I think that many, if not most, probably are less intelligent than your average atheist. But I also think that they're really sort of thinking with their emotions and not the higher more rational parts of their brains. For whatever reason, they've learned to let their feelings guide them. That's why you can have someone who is pretty intelligent, but will also rationalizes things like burning bushes and/or talking snakes.

Gawd, pardon the grammar... Very very sleep deprived...

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-06-07 10:23am

Is there not also a suspected gene that can code for a higher spirituality, if not religiosity, in some people? I think I saw a Dateline or Frontline on this study. Some people may be more "coded" to be suceptible to religious beliefs, not that that would be an excuse for Fundie behavior, just an explanation.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-06-07 10:27am

Ahh it was TIME (they make you subscribe to see the full article, but this was the only place I could find it in printed form).[/url]

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-07 10:40am

The Original Nex wrote:Is there not also a suspected gene that can code for a higher spirituality, if not religiosity, in some people? I think I saw a Dateline or Frontline on this study. Some people may be more "coded" to be suceptible to religious beliefs, not that that would be an excuse for Fundie behavior, just an explanation.

Some people have deficient spatial reasoning centres in their brains, which means they can lose spatial orientation sometimes. Supposedly, it feels like they're floating in space. People who experience this often believe that it represents a spiritual experience, rather than a brain malfunction.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-06-07 01:39pm

There's also the emotional factor to be considered. Even for the very intelligent, it can take a lot of courage to face some rather ugly truths about existence. One of them being that this is likely the only shot you're going to get, and there's no beneficient, all-powerful Invisible Cloud-Being to set things right for you. That bad things happen randomly no matter how good people may be and that the wicked never suffer any sort of judgement or punishment. That there is no justice. The world doesn't make plot-sense and it's hard for a lot of people to recognise that it's not required to simply because we really really really want it so. Easier to duck under the comforting covers of religion. Especially in moments when your life seems to be falling apart. Or when the end is in sight.

Camel · Post by **Camel** » 2006-06-08 04:33am

Darth Wong wrote: People who experience this often believe that it represents a spiritual experience, rather than a brain malfunction.

This akin to those dudes on TV; He places his hand on the victims head and asks "Do you feel the love of god now?!" Not, exactly a brain malfunction, I guess.
Still, its amazing how people behave in front of the camera and thousands of people. How can merely placing your hand on a persons head lead to feeling the love of god? I would love to be the one up there and say "NOPE!

".

Anyway, I think a few minority of people may simply proclaim themselves as atheists as a rebelling thing.
My friend, whom I've known for 10 years, originally claimed to be Satanic. This was in JR High. It had nothing to do with education or intelligence( or perhaps it did

). I eventually came to the conclusion he was just saying that just because it was "cool". Over the years listening to me preach about this shit and the origin of the universe he has become a solid atheist.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-06-08 05:44am

That there is no justice.

That looks just like cowardice, not "facing" the truth. There is justice, and it's up to us, people. So if someone likes to cower before the injustice of the world and do nothing, rather than stand up to it, and excuse his own inaction with a belief in some supernatural force that would "set stuff right" - that's nothing but extreme cowardice and fear.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-08 01:09pm

Alyeska wrote:I know some very smart people who believe some very stupid things.

I would say that education is a better indicator of Atheism. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to be Atheist.

Since education is also correlated with intelligence, I don't see how this would refute a correlation between intelligence and atheism.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-06-08 01:13pm

I would imagine there's a correlation simply because the default setting in this society is to be religious. It takes thought and education to overcome childhood indocterination. If we indocterinated children to be atheists, the correlation would shrink or vanish entirely.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-06-08 01:53pm

If we indocterinated children to be atheists, the correlation would shrink or vanish entirely.

Perhaps. However, "indocrinating" into atheism also means offering proper education, because you can't simply "indocrinate" into a belief without offering the groundwork - philosophical and, in case of atheism, scientific (because scientific atheism is the only atheism worth indocrinating into). Therefore, at least the educational levels would rise. Intelligence per se can't be influenced by beliefs, but education and it's quality very well can - see the cretinist camp.

How do you measure intelligence anyway? Education - you can. Intelligence? Shaky and not solid measuring.

Religious indocrination and education level, on the other hand, are certainly, without doubt, in negative correlation. Especially with the existence of private religious and heavily religion-leaning schools.

Magnetic · Post by **Magnetic** » 2006-06-08 01:54pm

The Original Nex wrote:Is there not also a suspected gene that can code for a higher spirituality, if not religiosity, in some people? I think I saw a Dateline or Frontline on this study. Some people may be more "coded" to be suceptible to religious beliefs, not that that would be an excuse for Fundie behavior, just an explanation.

I don't know. . . .I was pretty religious not that long ago, . . . . when I actually started discovering other views (that ultimately made more sense), my religiosity began to wane. As of now, . . . .my religiosity is about as low as it has ever been.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-06-08 05:15pm

Magnetic wrote:
The Original Nex wrote:Is there not also a suspected gene that can code for a higher spirituality, if not religiosity, in some people? I think I saw a Dateline or Frontline on this study. Some people may be more "coded" to be suceptible to religious beliefs, not that that would be an excuse for Fundie behavior, just an explanation.
I don't know. . . .I was pretty religious not that long ago, . . . . when I actually started discovering other views (that ultimately made more sense), my religiosity began to wane. As of now, . . . .my religiosity is about as low as it has ever been.

Could your religiosity have been a result of your upbringing, or are you a naturally spiritual person. I think that's a distinction. This so-called "God Gene" idea doesn't suggest that everyone who is religious or spiritual has this spirituality gene, but those with this gene are more open to these beliefs. If you don't have this gene it doesn't mean that you're automatically an atheist, far from it, it just means you're less spiritual by nature. This "God Gene" (that's really an inappropriate name for it) isn't supposed to be a be all end all to explain the "religious condition" just offer a piece of the puzzell.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-06-08 06:18pm

There is, I think, a correlation between courage and atheism. Let's face it; it's a scary universe to think there's no one looking out for you, that the only justice is imperfect us. This may be the opposite correlation, however, in that fear breeds organized religion.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2006-06-08 08:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:I know some very smart people who believe some very stupid things.

I would say that education is a better indicator of Atheism. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to be Atheist.
Since education is also correlated with intelligence, I don't see how this would refute a correlation between intelligence and atheism.

Hadn't thought of that. Though with the current trends in higher level education, that inteligence correlation with education is faltering somewhat. And its offering people a chance to get involved in subjects they else wise might fail to get a chance at.

I don't know the statistics, but I think its safe to say that the number of smart people in western countries hasn't really changed percentage wise from a hundred years ago. On the other hand, education levels have changed.

So I can agree that inteligence does have a correlation. Though I have to say that education is currently the stronger correlation.

And if I got the facts wrong, feel free to correct me. As I said, I don't actualy know for a fact the changes.

R. U. Serious · Post by **R. U. Serious** » 2006-06-09 07:27am

Alyeska wrote:I don't know the statistics, but I think its safe to say that the number of smart people in western countries hasn't really changed percentage wise from a hundred years ago. On the other hand, education levels have changed.

By all the available measurements it has. Now, it can of course be argued, what IQ tests are really (also) measuring...

So I can agree that inteligence does have a correlation. Though I have to say that education is currently the stronger correlation.

When you say education - do you mean public schools in general? Or are you referring to a proper scientific education? I would agree with the latter, but dispute the former. Simply look at the number of people that have seen some kind of schooling, and still blieve in God:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/ ... 7083.shtml

The majority of people can be made to believe just about anything, through "education" (when education is understood as a kind of indoctrination), hence you can't make a general statement about the effect of education - at least unless you you qualify the kind of education more specifically.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-06-09 10:53am

I'm fairly sure we've been referring to higher education here. A public school education is absolutely no indication of intelligence. Finishing your master's at Harvard probably is. People wouldn't have made the connection between intellect and studies unless they were referring to tertiary schooling.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2006-06-09 11:39am

While I think that intelligence is correlated to atheism, I think a stronger correlation can be made between non-fundamentalism with intelligence, as opposed to atheism.

I know of many highly intelligent professionals and intellectuals who are religious, but I don't think I've met any such people who are fundamentalist.