gun control

[Alyeska]

I don't quite fit in any of the above. I agree with a friend of mine, who is a hunter. Rifles and shotguns are fine, but any other gun is useless. That includes Mac 10's, assault rifles and handguns.

Also, I think there should be stricter tests to see if you could handle a gun.

A handgun is far from useless. It serves multiple purposes.

Defense weapon
Recreational device
Hunting weapon

For those who can use a handgun safely to do any of the following, I have no problem.

Handguns are second rate weapons for all of those. The big plus they have is small size, which is more important to criminals than to citizens.

And there are some guns which are made for really only one purpose, crime.

Do you even know what you are talking about?

A Handgun is ideal for defense because its easier and faster to aim. That and it doesn't fire a bullet that travels through 5 walls.

A Handgun is great for recreation. Last time I went sport shooting I had more fun with my Glock-22 then my friends shotgun.

And believe it or not, but people find it a FUN challenge to hunt with a pistol.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

That's the point of restricting guns, the less people have, the less criminals can get. The criminals don't make the guns themselves, they don't have the industry to do that.

Ever heard of something called a machine shop? With a metal lathe, CNC machine, and some basic tools you could make all the parts needed for a gun. No your typical gangbanger punk won't be making them, but you can sure as hell bet that organized crime will be doing it. It ain't that hard.

Yeah, that's why everyone and their dog has that kind of equipment in their basement cranking out this shit.

Guns are not easy to build or modify in serious ways. If you screw up, especially with automatics, you can make the gun more dangerous to yourself than your target.

By outlawing the ownership, sale and manufacture of certain guns you limit their supply. Limit the supply and you increase the price, which puts the guns out of the hands of criminals. It's basic economics. You're not going to use a 2 grand weapon to steal 60 bucks from a gas station.

[Alyeska]

I support a system similar to Australia's where you can still own guns but there are many restrictions on who can own them and what you can own.

I believe there is a 10rnd magazine limit. You can't own ANYTHING automatic. It was a reasonably well constructed piece of legislation. Some bugs and kinks, but thats to be expected in any such process.

Ownership and license approval is a fairly involved process. You have to have a reason to own the weapon. The application process is about 6 months in length including psychological testing and a 3 month cooling off period.

Having magazine size restrictions and not allowing fully automatic weapons is pointless. A criminal is not going to pay attention to the laws and will aquire fully automatic weapons and high capacity clips if the want to. All these restrictions do is make life a pain in the ass to the law abiding people.

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

That's the point of restricting guns, the less people have, the less criminals can get. The criminals don't make the guns themselves, they don't have the industry to do that.

Not every country has made the high capacity clips or fully automatic weapons illegal. Black market gun runners buy them from these countries and then ship them into the US.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Handguns are second rate weapons for all of those. The big plus they have is small size, which is more important to criminals than to citizens.

And there are some guns which are made for really only one purpose, crime.

Do you even know what you are talking about?

A Handgun is ideal for defense because its easier and faster to aim. That and it doesn't fire a bullet that travels through 5 walls.

Shotguns are better for home defense.

A Handgun is great for recreation. Last time I went sport shooting I had more fun with my Glock-22 then my friends shotgun.

And believe it or not, but people find it a FUN challenge to hunt with a pistol.

And I know people who have fun with the challenge of driving home drunk. The prime concern for hunting should be safetly, not fun.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Not every country has made the high capacity clips or fully automatic weapons illegal. Black market gun runners buy them from these countries and then ship them into the US.

Which restricts the supply and increases the cost. Isn't that what I said?

[Alyeska]

Not every country has made the high capacity clips or fully automatic weapons illegal. Black market gun runners buy them from these countries and then ship them into the US.

Which restricts the supply and increases the cost. Isn't that what I said?

It puts a dent in the supply and makes high capacity clips available to the criminals only, not the law abiding citizens.

What point is there denying people the ability to have a clip that holds more then ten rounds?

[Alyeska]

Handguns are second rate weapons for all of those. The big plus they have is small size, which is more important to criminals than to citizens.

And there are some guns which are made for really only one purpose, crime.

Do you even know what you are talking about?

A Handgun is ideal for defense because its easier and faster to aim. That and it doesn't fire a bullet that travels through 5 walls.

Shotguns are better for home defense.

Some times yes, some times no. A pistol is faster to aim and is less deadly. Also does a bit less house damage if you miss.

A Handgun is great for recreation. Last time I went sport shooting I had more fun with my Glock-22 then my friends shotgun.

And believe it or not, but people find it a FUN challenge to hunt with a pistol.

And I know people who have fun with the challenge of driving home drunk. The prime concern for hunting should be safetly, not fun.

Your statement makes absolutely no sense. You say that concern in hunting should be saftey. What is unsafe about hunting with a pistol? You also bring up a completely unrelated bit on people and drunk driving.

Don't confuse the issue here. You made a claim that is blantantly false and your trying to cover your tracks since you have been proven wrong.

[Knife]

Not every country has made the high capacity clips or fully automatic weapons illegal. Black market gun runners buy them from these countries and then ship them into the US.

Which restricts the supply and increases the cost. Isn't that what I said?

If you increase the cost, then it will be worth selling them on the black market. Simple economics. Black market sales will go up, and criminals will get guns, and criminals will make alot of money selling guns.

[MKSheppard]

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

Actually, the organized crime scene takes care of that. Plenty of evil
handguns and machine guns floating around on the world arms
market...

[Darth Wong]

If you increase the cost, then it will be worth selling them on the black market. Simple economics. Black market sales will go up, and criminals will get guns, and criminals will make alot of money selling guns.

I think the point he's trying to make is that it will be more difficult, not impossible. I find that gun-control debates often devolve into false-dilemma fallacies: "if you can't find a way to eliminate all handguns, then you should just forget any kind of regulation at all." Tell me, what can we regulate if we employ that logic consistently?

There's nothing wrong with trying to raise the bar. And the larger a legitimate market is, the larger the black market is. It's much easier to secretly grab a few fish out of a fully stocked stream than a depleted stream.

This is like saying that we shouldn't regulate cars because people will just drive unlicensed cars, and we shouldn't regulate drunk drivers because a determined drunk driver will always re-offend. It's true that you can't eliminate crime by regulating guns. Hell, you won't even eliminate guns by regulating guns. But you can reduce the sheer quantity of guns that are in the hands of casual morons.

These aren't organized criminals or responsible sportsmen; these are the assholes who get kicked out of a party and then come back an hour later to shoot the host. These are the assholes who get cut off on the highway and decide to open fire in retaliation. These are the morons who get in drunken gunfights outside of nightclubs. They're not going to build their own gun in a machine shop (idiots like this would most likely injure themselves in the process), and they're going to have trouble picking up their firearms on the black market. They only have firearms in the first place because they're a bit too easy to get, even for morons.

[MKSheppard]

Guns are not easy to build or modify in serious ways. If you screw up, especially with automatics, you can make the gun more dangerous to yourself than your target.

I can make a zip gun in less than an hour with easily obtainable parts
such as correctly sized piping...

[MKSheppard]

They only have firearms in the first place because they're a bit too easy to get, even for morons.

That seems to be a common thread that runs through your gun control
arguments: the fact that guns make it easy for morons to kill anyone,
no matter how smart their opponent is...

[Illuminatus Primus]

I support a system similar to Australia's where you can still own guns but there are many restrictions on who can own them and what you can own.

I believe there is a 10rnd magazine limit. You can't own ANYTHING automatic. It was a reasonably well constructed piece of legislation. Some bugs and kinks, but thats to be expected in any such process.

Ownership and license approval is a fairly involved process. You have to have a reason to own the weapon. The application process is about 6 months in length including psychological testing and a 3 month cooling off period.

Having magazine size restrictions and not allowing fully automatic weapons is pointless. A criminal is not going to pay attention to the laws and will aquire fully automatic weapons and high capacity clips if the want to. All these restrictions do is make life a pain in the ass to the law abiding people.

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

That's the point of restricting guns, the less people have, the less criminals can get. The criminals don't make the guns themselves, they don't have the industry to do that.

Black market? Like I want automatics and everything else also coming over the Mexican border and Washington wasting money doing a piss-poor job of doing it while the extortionists are murders still get their guns. Forget it.

[Raptor 597]

I would not classify that under recreational. I would call it "Trying for the Darwin Award the wrong way". Recreational is using proper saftey precautions and taking the pistol to a proper place to shoot and having fun shooting at targets.

Yes, but it is recreational they are trying too have fun and probabbly kill themselves. It's not a sfe way for recreation with a gun, but recreation onetheless.

Don't be a fucking idiot. You know exactly WHAT I meant with my statement. The fact that I ended the statement with "For those who can use a handgun safely to do any of the following, I have no problem." should clearly indicate what I mean. People who find it fun to randomly shoot at people are NOT conducting proper firearm saftey.

Yes, I knew. Relax. But it's still recreation for them even if they don't want the Darwin Award.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Not every country has made the high capacity clips or fully automatic weapons illegal. Black market gun runners buy them from these countries and then ship them into the US.

Which restricts the supply and increases the cost. Isn't that what I said?

It puts a dent in the supply and makes high capacity clips available to the criminals only, not the law abiding citizens.

What point is there denying people the ability to have a clip that holds more then ten rounds?

Law abiding citizens don't need high capacity clips. Criminals do. In Canada there's a 3 round limit to clips for hunting rifles. But if you need more than 3 shots to kill a deer / moose / etc. then you shouldn't be hunting.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

That's the point of restricting guns, the less people have, the less criminals can get. The criminals don't make the guns themselves, they don't have the industry to do that.

Black market?

Which raises the price.

Like I want automatics and everything else also coming over the Mexican border and Washington wasting money doing a piss-poor job of doing it while the extortionists are murders still get their guns. Forget it.

Most stolen guns actually come from inside the US borders. Importing illegal weapons isn't that common.

[aerius]

Law abiding citizens don't need high capacity clips. Criminals do. In Canada there's a 3 round limit to clips for hunting rifles. But if you need more than 3 shots to kill a deer / moose / etc. then you shouldn't be hunting.

Right, and WTF are you going to do then when a large grizzly bear decides that you're on the lunch menu? Unless you happen to have a large caliber rifle or a shotgun loaded with slugs along, you'd better hope that whatever gun you have holds more than 3 rounds in the magazine.

[Alyeska]

Which restricts the supply and increases the cost. Isn't that what I said?

It puts a dent in the supply and makes high capacity clips available to the criminals only, not the law abiding citizens.

What point is there denying people the ability to have a clip that holds more then ten rounds?

Law abiding citizens don't need high capacity clips. Criminals do. In Canada there's a 3 round limit to clips for hunting rifles. But if you need more than 3 shots to kill a deer / moose / etc. then you shouldn't be hunting.

You have said that citizens don't need high capacity clips. You have not explained why they don't need them or why they shouldn't have them. Whats wrong with having a 15 round clip to go target shooting with? Do you have any idea how mind numbingly borring it is having to reload magazines? Do you know how expensive it is buy more clips and how much space it takes up? You know how NICE it is just to be able to hold more rounds?

And what is the bloody point in making high capacity clips illegal if your still going to allow the pre-ban clips in the market? There is no logical reason to ban them. You might as well make low capacity 2 round clips the law.

BTW, when a bear is charging you, you better pray you got more then just 3 rounds to fire off.

[Alyeska]

If you can't legally buy them and manufactures can't legally make them, where are the criminals going to get them? Magic?

That's the point of restricting guns, the less people have, the less criminals can get. The criminals don't make the guns themselves, they don't have the industry to do that.

Black market?

Which raises the price.

Like I want automatics and everything else also coming over the Mexican border and Washington wasting money doing a piss-poor job of doing it while the extortionists are murders still get their guns. Forget it.

Most stolen guns actually come from inside the US borders. Importing illegal weapons isn't that common.

Your statement just answered itself. "Most stolen guns..." Well no shit. Most black market guns do NOT come from within the US. Importing illegal weapons is relatively common given the number of banned weapons in the hands of criminals.

BTW, prices being raised on the black market is not directly related to real life items. Most things on the black market are their because:
A: They are unavailable legally
B: Its cheaper and easier then buying it legally

Thus nothing done to ban weapons or make life harder on law abiding citizens will not have any noticable affect on the black market pricing.

[ZAROVE]

I am new here but I have a rather amusing tale to tell...


I was shot, this very year in fact, with a .25 calibre automatic handgun no less.

I was not shot by a criminal hardened by a life of crime, but rather by ACCEDENT, in my own yard, by an 18 year old boy who had found his mothers handgun, tried firign it, and when all else failed, started usign it as a toy.

One morning I was out in my yard, walked over to the fence to talk to him, unaware of his armed status, and all of the sudden I am on the recieving end of the shot.

The bpy threw the gun away... and ran.

I was left to crawl into the house and call 911.

This incedent was not atypical, most shootings in america stem form accedents.

Most guns kill family freidns and neighbours that pose no real threat, other times a heated arguments ends in ones use, a moments rage leads to a lifetime of guilt.

This havign been said, I myself have never felt threatened, living in a small town with a low crimerate, just walkign along at night.

on the other hand, the one time I was shot, it wa in my own yard by someone who want even mad at me.

I personally think Gun controle is a good idea and fail to see the facination witht he devices.

[Alyeska]

I personally think Gun controle is a good idea and fail to see the facination witht he devices.

There is a difference between gun control/gun responsibility and something like total bans on types of guns.

[aerius]

I was not shot by a criminal hardened by a life of crime, but rather by ACCEDENT, in my own yard, by an 18 year old boy who had found his mothers handgun, tried firign it, and when all else failed, started usign it as a toy.

One morning I was out in my yard, walked over to the fence to talk to him, unaware of his armed status, and all of the sudden I am on the recieving end of the shot.

The bpy threw the gun away... and ran.

What you have there is a complete lack of firearms knowledge on the part of the dumb kid, as well as an irresponsible mother who left the gun around for her dumbass kid to play with. No amount of weapons control will prevent that kind of wanton stupidity. What you have there is the equivalent of a 5 year old kid taking daddy's car for a joyride down the streets.

Edit: AFAIK there's no such thing as a .25cal automatic handgun, semi-auto yes, but not full auto.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Law abiding citizens don't need high capacity clips. Criminals do. In Canada there's a 3 round limit to clips for hunting rifles. But if you need more than 3 shots to kill a deer / moose / etc. then you shouldn't be hunting.

Right, and WTF are you going to do then when a large grizzly bear decides that you're on the lunch menu? Unless you happen to have a large caliber rifle or a shotgun loaded with slugs along, you'd better hope that whatever gun you have holds more than 3 rounds in the magazine.

Hopefully, you'll die. Score one for the Animals. How else could hunting be considered a sport unless the animals win one once in a while.

Seriously, how many time have animals killed hunters? Unless you are threatening a cub, the noise from a gun should scare off any bear.

[Alyeska]

Law abiding citizens don't need high capacity clips. Criminals do. In Canada there's a 3 round limit to clips for hunting rifles. But if you need more than 3 shots to kill a deer / moose / etc. then you shouldn't be hunting.

Right, and WTF are you going to do then when a large grizzly bear decides that you're on the lunch menu? Unless you happen to have a large caliber rifle or a shotgun loaded with slugs along, you'd better hope that whatever gun you have holds more than 3 rounds in the magazine.

Hopefully, you'll die. Score one for the Animals. How else could hunting be considered a sport unless the animals win one once in a while.

Seriously, how many time have animals killed hunters? Unless you are threatening a cub, the noise from a gun should scare off any bear.

You have little experience with bears, it shows.

[ZAROVE]

Sorry not a gun person, but the bullet permenently imbedded in my spine is 25 calibre.