TA Spring... of DOOM!

[Stofsk]

Nothing wrong with the Krogoth. Especially since AA adds the Orcone to the ARM, as well as other level 3 units to both sides.

EDIT: I mean AA for vanilla TA, I haven't played AA for Spring.

[Nephtys]

Of course, the Core has the unit that never should have to be built, the Krogoth. A competent TA player should never need to build a Krogoth.

It is very good at breaking tough defenses. However, that job can often be handled for a lot cheaper by using nukes.

Krogoth/Orcone are really used for one thing. Being the spearhead of an assault against an unassailable position and winning. In AA, with the addition of artillery shields, can render a strongpoint unbeatable by any amount of reasonable conventional arms, and nuke-proof easilly with ABMs.

Even a wave of sumos will get eaten alive by layered Guardian/Annhilator defenses.

[Covenant]

Of course, the Core has the unit that never should have to be built, the Krogoth. A competent TA player should never need to build a Krogoth.

It is very good at breaking tough defenses. However, that job can often be handled for a lot cheaper by using nukes.

Hah! I dislike nukes AND Krogoths. I never had heard of an Ocone so imagine my suprise when Nephtys had one and it was the only thing between her juicy base and my unstoppable horde. I was like "Oh come on, since when do Arm get a Krogoth."

It got D-Gunned.

I really don't buy the idea of using superweapons at all, really. They ruin the offensive value of massed units. Base defenses are already so hard to crack--installing nuclear weapon silos inside your own base just makes the game a moronic stalemate with both sides churning out nukes and nuke-interceptors and more silos for each as fast as humanly possible.

And you can use them against armies too, ya' know. I have anti-nuke Kbots but it's a pain in the ass to need to divert production off things that do damage to protect against the chance attack of a nuke against me.

I'm NOT in favor of the "sit back and use base defenses to attack each other" thing. Nukes do too much damage to base structures to be called a 'defense killer' weapon. They're ways to avoid a conflict. Just get in there with some rockets and fight!

I dunno. I hate nukes. I hate the ultra long range artillery turret. I hate Krogoths. I want to fight with armies in odd terrain, not with superweapon fire being fired from my ridiculously over-protected base. Anti-nuke silos are too expensive to just be made on a whim, and anti-artillery fields are the same.

I just hate getting my army all toolin' along with mixed forces and it's looking great, and then all of a sudden from a mile away I get hit by artillery batteries and my light units start popping (since I can't built nothing but heavies!) and a nuke sails in and wipes out 60 K-Bots and it all evaporates in an instant.

I suppose I should just adapt better, but it pisses me off every time. It's an avoidance technique--people do crap like that because they're looking for an easier way out than just building clever armies. Rarely in TA spring does it get to the point like it did in vanilla TA where you have 10 fusion plants and 4 Intimidators firing at battleship fleets a mere half-way across the map and nukes are rarely used, but an option for smacking down an unprepared raid, but the real fighting happens between opposing armies as planes dogfight overhead and navy ships send in fire from the sides.

No. It just happens that you have a halfway decent sized army made up of the crappiest of the crap low-end units and then someone spend all that time building up to make a superweapon and then it just ruins the game.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of the more ridiculous base defenses. Gatt's are tough enough! Seriously, these are really fun to use, but they take all the fun out of the actual gameplay and make it into a game of creating castles and firing at each other from over the battlements.

[Stark]

Cov, that's one of the things about TA. Against IDIOTS, you can do all manner of nuts things... but against a decent opponent who finds you, keeps pressure on, and aggressively patrols the map, it's very difficult to do many of them. I've seen so many people with bullshit 'don't attack for 10/15/30minutes' because they want to ratchet up the tree and get a dozen wide-spread nuke silos or a Krogoth out before anyone can 'ruin' their 'plan'.

In my opinion, if someone can build a Krogoth without you knowing and while fighting you off, you were toast ANYWAY.

[Xon]

Where is the Hawk love?

Massed air units in TA for teh win. Only lesser so in Spring, but still damn awesome.

[Covenant]

Cov, that's one of the things about TA. Against IDIOTS, you can do all manner of nuts things... but against a decent opponent who finds you, keeps pressure on, and aggressively patrols the map, it's very difficult to do many of them. I've seen so many people with bullshit 'don't attack for 10/15/30minutes' because they want to ratchet up the tree and get a dozen wide-spread nuke silos or a Krogoth out before anyone can 'ruin' their 'plan'.

In my opinion, if someone can build a Krogoth without you knowing and while fighting you off, you were toast ANYWAY.

Not true! Base defenses in XTA are ridiculous--even ony light laser turret can fend off hordes and hordes of small units, and a heavy one can grind up even the most durable tanks in a few volleys--and in AA they're still really rough due to the 'anti-swarm' turrets and 'anti-bomber' turrets.

It becomes so economically PAINFUL to break through someone's defenses (as Neph alluded to) that I can be building an excellent mix of attack units at full tilt from several yards, have a nice, respectable army of over 100 (which I did! Close to 150) and send them in only to have ALL of them be demolished by stationary defenses. Not even fancy ones, just the basic ones.

Units like Sumos and Cans are so important for breaking that defensive lockdown that you need to build them if you want to attack, but frankly building a Krogoth doesn't take much longer than two or three Sumos.

In XTA I managed to build a Krogoth against Neph despite being under heavy, constant bombardment from troops, aircraft and nuclear weapons due to a veeeery small number of base defense cannons. VERY small. Like 3 Gatt's and 3 Goliath tanks supporting anti-air and a few anti-Peewee light laser turrets.

She only managed to gum up my plan when she sent in a massive air assault and bombed my suprisingly flimsy anti-nuke silo. Even then, the Krogoth was complete, but due to a pathing error it was apparently unable to leave the incredibly small crater the nuke left. Still, it would have prevented any sort of attack.

It demonstrated, however, the relative ease at which these things can be built. For me to break through her level 1 defenses doesn't require level 2 units, but like a HORDE of level 2 units and quite possibly the advanced superheavy ones. To build that requires a significant financial investment. In the time it takes me to build one Goliath she can probably make two Gatt's and hold them off just fine.

Defenses are nearly always more efficent for their dollar value than the same firepower in terms of units, and a variety of them have longer range and much easier accesibility. Plus you can churn them out exactly where you need them. So the setup becomes a battle between opposing defenses, essentially. Trust me, I was doing everything I could to take her down. I'd claimed the center of the middle part of the map with an unbreakable defense and army. I claimed the Sea and launched periodic amphibious siege Mech attacks or hovercraft attacks. I claimed all the islands and had built miners and defenses on them, with thick groups of air patrols keeping her out of my hair.

But anytime my forces went in there--and you can ask her--they got turned back either by the Commander's D-Gun or base defense turrets. It's no wonder someone would have the time to make these things when every attack on you falters against incredibly thick turret nests. My final victory came when her D-Gun failed to fire against a pair of Sumos and they tore it into pieces, knocking them around but barely damaging them--the explosion, however, did take out a fair number of HER units, and then everything else fell apart until I realized she had an Ocone.

Sad thing is, when I had chosen not to make a Krogoth and was making all-terrain attack mechs instead. These didn't do crap against the Ocone, and neither did my gigantic super army. I have no idea how you can stop one without another Krogoth. Also sad, I nearly built one by the time it got from defending her base to the center of mine. If my Krogoth lab had been in my base or I had decided to go for it instead of the assault mechs, I would have had my own Kroggie to fight with. As it was I ended up finishing it anyway, just shortly after my cloaked commander D-Gunned the Ocone right in front of my middle-of-the-map stronghold defenses. Commander ate it in the resulting blast, but Krogoth lab and a few of the turrets survived.

Anyway, that's my point. Superweapons are too easy to create. They overwhelm defenses and armies far, far more than their cost in units would be able to achieve the same punishing effect. An Intimidator may not be the same as 10 Sumos, but it can strike from the safety of my own defensive lines. Nukes are similar--I can fire them from behind heavy, heavy defenses, making my fortress all but impossible to crack. Yes, someone who owns the map CAN eventually break through (as I did) but even so sometimes things like Krogoths are just SO powerful they require the most ridiculous tactics (Queenswap with Commander D-Gunning it) just to save the day.

It was an exciting match. But don't say "Against a good player you should never be able to build these things" because that's just a buncha' garbage. Base defenses are to incredibly hard to crack. Light units can't--regardless of number. Mediums either. It requires a mass of superheavy units with some other advanced units as backup (such as rocket troops) to even have a chance of breaking through mixed defensive lines.

[Vanas]

- Arm Battleship has nothing but cannons, like a battleship should for shelling. Core's BB has an awkward Heavy Laser on it.

I will hear nothing said aginst my Warlords, damnit. The laser is longer ranged than the average Gaat, does more damage, has been known to hit aircraft and makes it useful against other ships. (Especially for humliating passing Arm skeeters. *pt-eow!**blam!*

And the FF Core battlecruiser makes me happy on so many levels


On a lighter note, haven't played TA in years. I might see if I can't join a game at some point, but go easy on me, eh?

[Stofsk]

Not true! Base defenses in XTA are ridiculous--even ony light laser turret can fend off hordes and hordes of small units, and a heavy one can grind up even the most durable tanks in a few volleys--and in AA they're still really rough due to the 'anti-swarm' turrets and 'anti-bomber' turrets.

Rocket KBOTs destroy the laster towers. They shoot beyond the tower's maximum range. If it works for the goddamn AI it ought to work for me, dammit.

Ballistic rocketers only make this worse. Merls/Diplomats can smash defensive units from beyond their shooting range. Heavy units for escort (Sumos or Bulldogs) plus anti-air, and use the rocket units to smash the defences.

Annihilators/Doomsday Machines spoil the fun though. But I imagine to crack that nut you gotta be sneaky. Crawling bomb airlift or a hover transport loaded with bombs helps to break a deadlock; basically, anything to weaken the defensive line. I don't buy this "Defensive units give more bang for their buck" thing. They have more armour but they have zero mobility. Worse comes to worse your units can always attempt to bypass the fortifications - looking for the chink in the defences so to speak. Defences are nothing without power - attack the power generators in hit-and-run attacks.

Finally, if someone is porcing then that's when you build a Krogoth/Orcone, or the lighter battle mechs in something like AA. Or use the cruise missile silo in AA (cheaper than a nuke, isn't it?). But if they're porcing then what the fuck are they doing? Winning the game, or sitting on their arse and twiddling their thumbs?

This is theory, I'd love to play online, but I'm not confident with Spring so that leaves Vanilla TA.

[Nephtys]

Not true! Base defenses in XTA are ridiculous--even ony light laser turret can fend off hordes and hordes of small units, and a heavy one can grind up even the most durable tanks in a few volleys--and in AA they're still really rough due to the 'anti-swarm' turrets and 'anti-bomber' turrets.

Rocket KBOTs destroy the laster towers. They shoot beyond the tower's maximum range. If it works for the goddamn AI it ought to work for me, dammit.

Ballistic rocketers only make this worse. Merls/Diplomats can smash defensive units from beyond their shooting range. Heavy units for escort (Sumos or Bulldogs) plus anti-air, and use the rocket units to smash the defences.

Annihilators/Doomsday Machines spoil the fun though. But I imagine to crack that nut you gotta be sneaky. Crawling bomb airlift or a hover transport loaded with bombs helps to break a deadlock; basically, anything to weaken the defensive line. I don't buy this "Defensive units give more bang for their buck" thing. They have more armour but they have zero mobility. Worse comes to worse your units can always attempt to bypass the fortifications - looking for the chink in the defences so to speak. Defences are nothing without power - attack the power generators in hit-and-run attacks.

Finally, if someone is porcing then that's when you build a Krogoth/Orcone, or the lighter battle mechs in something like AA. Or use the cruise missile silo in AA (cheaper than a nuke, isn't it?). But if they're porcing then what the fuck are they doing? Winning the game, or sitting on their arse and twiddling their thumbs?

This is theory, I'd love to play online, but I'm not confident with Spring so that leaves Vanilla TA.

Spring's more or less the same. A few minor tweaks in some mods shouldn't throw you off. XTA is mostly similar to standard TA, with said tweaks like improving the LLT's range.

[InnocentBystander]

Can you still get your hands on the original TA?

[Stofsk]

Spring's more or less the same. A few minor tweaks in some mods shouldn't throw you off. XTA is mostly similar to standard TA, with said tweaks like improving the LLT's range.

I meant I'm not confident with myself playing Spring, which is to say I haven't played it enough to get a feel for it. It takes some getting used to, and I need to get some kind of guide or what not to dive into it. (list of hotkeys, that sort of thing)

I can remember if there is any apparent metal deposits either. Apparently you just chuck it down wherever the green says you do.

[Vanas]

Hmm. In FPS mode, how exactly do I fire any of the other weapons? I could only play with the D-Gun as the commander.

I'm gonig to have to get used to Spring, it seems. And FPS mode reminds me of old amiga games. One-unit tank hunt games could be amusing for a while. (well, unless Core cheat and make the Goliath)

[Covenant]

Not true! Base defenses in XTA are ridiculous--even ony light laser turret can fend off hordes and hordes of small units, and a heavy one can grind up even the most durable tanks in a few volleys--and in AA they're still really rough due to the 'anti-swarm' turrets and 'anti-bomber' turrets.

Rocket KBOTs destroy the laster towers. They shoot beyond the tower's maximum range. If it works for the goddamn AI it ought to work for me, dammit.

Ballistic rocketers only make this worse. Merls/Diplomats can smash defensive units from beyond their shooting range. Heavy units for escort (Sumos or Bulldogs) plus anti-air, and use the rocket units to smash the defences.

Annihilators/Doomsday Machines spoil the fun though. But I imagine to crack that nut you gotta be sneaky. Crawling bomb airlift or a hover transport loaded with bombs helps to break a deadlock; basically, anything to weaken the defensive line. I don't buy this "Defensive units give more bang for their buck" thing. They have more armour but they have zero mobility. Worse comes to worse your units can always attempt to bypass the fortifications - looking for the chink in the defences so to speak. Defences are nothing without power - attack the power generators in hit-and-run attacks.

Finally, if someone is porcing then that's when you build a Krogoth/Orcone, or the lighter battle mechs in something like AA. Or use the cruise missile silo in AA (cheaper than a nuke, isn't it?). But if they're porcing then what the fuck are they doing? Winning the game, or sitting on their arse and twiddling their thumbs?

This is theory, I'd love to play online, but I'm not confident with Spring so that leaves Vanilla TA.

Problem with a Porc'er is that they're often really hard to crack, and that makes any raid capable of actually breaching their defenses, locating their power, and then hitting it to knock down defenses already an expensive investment. And this always translates into needing more and more time and heavier or more exotic units to really get in there and cause the amount of damage you need to in order to bust through. Peewees cost next to nothing and are suprisingly lethal to my little rocket-launching duders.

And all this delaying usually allows them to start making nukes or a Krogoth or a battery of big guns and then start hitting my base from inside their own. Blah.

This isn't to say it's an impossible to beat strategy. It isn't! But the availability of adequate low-level defenses and the presence of suprisingly good low-level Arm units often means that I, as a Core non-Porc player, am going to have to withstand a good deal of pain in the beginning game where I neither have units capable of mounting a strong offensive, the resources to build better stuff, or units as good as my foes.

[Nephtys]

Forget Porcing. I just played a ridiculous 2v2 game, which resulted in well.. quite a bit of bashing. Everyone had vehicles, defenses, etc and were hurling themselves at each other. The game lasted so long, that EACH SIDE started deploying Krogoths. We had a multiple superweapon battle with atomic bombers striking at them repeatedly, and wow. IT was ridiculous.

I also learned how many peewees, jeffys and flashes it takes to down one: a lot.

[InnocentBystander]

Atomic bombers? what the hell?

[Nephtys]

Atomic bombers? what the hell?

They drop tiny nukes. It's really just one bomb with a blast. Not the same as the ol' huge explosion you're used to. It does good damage for a bomber, and decent blast. Mostly for clearing out waves of cheaper level 2 units.

[Stark]

Regardless of primary base defence, they're either building their Krogoth in their base (bad idea) and you can shut down their resourcing, or their building it outside their defence and constant suicidal airstrikes/nukes/whatever can kill the assist-connies. Krogoths, the tower and constantly replacing the assist connies cost money, and you should have won before it's complete.

I've never found TA:Spring defences that difficult; there are so many extremely long range attack options. Sure, they can dig into terrain where it's difficult to get them... so ignore them. Seriously, deep strikes aren't that hard, and popping someones Krogoth/giant gatling gun/etc before it's finished basically fucks them. Didn't XTA do something bad to nukes and antinukes, so you can build half a dozen nuke silos and fire one missile from each and the nuke defender can't cope? Or was it the other way around, where the defenders fire way too fast to use nukes now?

[InnocentBystander]

Defenders can hold off against nukes very well

[Stark]

Yeah, but in vanilla they were similar to nuke silos, but they changed them somehow. Frankly, I don't get the 'nuke hatred' many players have, it's not like they're that powerful.

[InnocentBystander]

Uhm, but they are. A single nuke game destroy an army; 2 or 3 can level a base. Nukes ruin your day.
e
This absolute annihilation mod; it's... just brutal. There are so many super space robots, it's absurd. I engaged 4 enemy super robots; and built one of my own in this game I just played.

[Nephtys]

Uhm, but they are. A single nuke game destroy an army; 2 or 3 can level a base. Nukes ruin your day.
e
This absolute annihilation mod; it's... just brutal. There are so many super space robots, it's absurd. I engaged 4 enemy super robots; and built one of my own in this game I just played.

To actually GET nukes, while maintaining any form of actual defense, you'll need at least a mohomine or two, and fusion plant or two. Then you'd have one silo, constantly draining to keep it's ammo going.

Compare that to how cheap and easy it is to get the perfectly infallible anti-nuke silo, which is far cheaper, faster to build, and about the same drain on your economy as a guardian turret or two, but protecting a whole base or site.


Anyway, regarding AA. They just added some intermediate units between a Krogoth and a heavy vehicle. They're no more lame than Sumo K-Bots. The most common types are more heavilly armed than a Sumo, faster, but far less armored.

[Instant Sunrise]

I'm having problems with TA Spring: it whines about GL_ARB_texture_env_combine when I try to start a game.

[InnocentBystander]

Anyway, regarding AA. They just added some intermediate units between a Krogoth and a heavy vehicle. They're no more lame than Sumo K-Bots. The most common types are more heavilly armed than a Sumo, faster, but far less armored.

This was an epic game; I faced 4 of the really big ones (starts with an O).

[InnocentBystander]

I'm having problems with TA Spring: it whines about GL_ARB_texture_env_combine when I try to start a game.

Read this

[Spyder]

I remember making hundreds of sumos and sending them on a long slow march through to the enemy base. You'd either win or succeed in building a huge wall of scrap.