Cats vs Dogs. GET IT ON!

[Gil Hamilton]

Terriers are infinitely more useful as ratters, anyway, as has been pointed out elsewhere in the thread. Even an untrained terrier will eagerly hunt rodents, as my mother found out to her horror one day when our Silky Terrier made her first kill.

Did your terrier proudly leave his prize on your mothers rug or porch, feeling very smug about it?

[Joe]

No, she just snapped the rat's neck and let it sit there and die while she taunted it (seriously!).

We also have squirrels and rabbits in our backyard. Once and a while you can catch her trying to sneak up on a squirrel.

[The Yosemite Bear]

oops that's a decimal point off.

I like both those wolves we've let into our caves ten million years ago....

You were SERIOUS?!
Dude, TEN million years??!!...

yes camel the relationship with dog and man predates homosapiens, domestication and slavery were part of why cro-mag beat out neanderthal for the natural selection contest.

[The Yosemite Bear]

also of note, I knew a tabby that was raised by Collies. He actually thought his job as a cat was to herd cattle and sheep. Finally died at age 14 he was kicked by a bull.

[Camel]

yes camel the relationship with dog and man predates homosapiens, domestication and slavery were part of why cro-mag beat out Neanderthal for the natural selection contest.

Ok, I know what your saying. Domestication of dogs could have occurred a long time ago. I have no idea how long. If I were to venture a guess; I would say at the most between 10-20k years ago. I think you are giving neanderthals a bit too much credit. Ten million years is just an outrageously long time, dude. Neanderthals have only been around about 250k years. Hominids have, at the most, only existed for 8 million.
Anyway, I understand what your saying, lets drop this.

Oh Jesus Christ, are you kidding me? You are aware that tigers and domestic housecats are not the same species, correct?

I am aware of this fact. All canines are welcome to fight. Maybe a more fair comparison would be a mountain lion vs a wolf. They are closer in size.

By that logic, I could claim that the mighty domestic canary is actually the best pet, on account of the fact a Tyrannosaurus could kick the shit out of the meanest tiger that ever lived.

That is the best one anyone has submitted so far. Anyway, T-rex isn't even a bird. Now we might as well set up a match between a killer whale and a hippo.

[Imperial Overlord]

Domestication of dogs happened at least 14,000 years ago and possibly as far back as 150,000 thousand years ago based on recent genetic studies.

[Rye]

yes camel the relationship with dog and man predates homosapiens

Evidence for this?

[RedImperator]

Oh Jesus Christ, are you kidding me? You are aware that tigers and domestic housecats are not the same species, correct?

I am aware of this fact. All canines are welcome to fight. Maybe a more fair comparison would be a mountain lion vs a wolf. They are closer in size.

Except this thread is about the merits of Felis silvestris versus those of Canis lupis (of which the domestic cat and dog, respectively, are subspecies). How a lion makes a better killer than an individual wolf makes no fucking difference in whether or not a domestic housecat is a good pet.

By that logic, I could claim that the mighty domestic canary is actually the best pet, on account of the fact a Tyrannosaurus could kick the shit out of the meanest tiger that ever lived.

That is the best one anyone has submitted so far. Anyway, T-rex isn't even a bird. Now we might as well set up a match between a killer whale and a hippo.

No, a Tyrannosaurus isn't a bird, but a canary is a dinosaur. Depending on which taxonomist you talk too, the entire class Aves is actually a part of either class Reptilia (which included the dinosaurs) or a new class called Dinosauria, which includes all birds and all dinosaurs. Canaries are nothing but small, feathered therapod dinosaurs, and if you get to bring in lions to prove the superiority of cats, I get to bring in Tyrannosaurs to prove the superiority of birds.

[Gil Hamilton]

Besides, if we were going by creatures related genetically to dogs and cats, you can trot out a lion, but I can trot out an Epicyon haydeni (think of the biggest fucking hyena you've ever wished you hadn't seen) and trump any cat on the market today and most prehistoric cats as well. Such things are pointless.

[lance]

Wouldn't the most fair vs be a 15lb house cat vs a 15lb dog? Both are the species being domesticated and neither have a size advantage. I am also assuming 15lbs is a healthy weight for both.

[AdmiralKanos]

Wouldn't the most fair vs be a 15lb house cat vs a 15lb dog? Both are the species being domesticated and neither have a size advantage. I am also assuming 15lbs is a healthy weight for both.

That's like saying that a fair comparison of trucks vs cars in hauling capacity would be to find a car and a truck that both weigh the same. It's retarded. One of the reasons that trucks can haul more than cars is the fact that they're bigger.

[RedImperator]

Why in the world is anyone assuming a cat would actually fight a dog anyway? If a German shepherd was going after a cat, the cat would do the same thing you would if a big angry dog was trying to kill you: get the fuck out of there. A cat is more agile than the dog, has far better leaping ability, and can go places the dog simply can't. Unless it's a mother defending her kittens, a cat isn't going to stick around for a fight against something twenty times its weight.

[Darth Wong]

Why in the world is anyone assuming a cat would actually fight a dog anyway? If a German shepherd was going after a cat, the cat would do the same thing you would if a big angry dog was trying to kill you: get the fuck out of there. A cat is more agile than the dog, has far better leaping ability, and can go places the dog simply can't. Unless it's a mother defending her kittens, a cat isn't going to stick around for a fight against something twenty times its weight.

My neighbour had a german shepherd who was a basically good dog but was always being harassed by one of the neighbourhood cats. One day he'd finally had enough and broke its neck. My neighbour quietly disposed of the carcass.

In any case, my earlier (unanswered) point stands. As pets, the dog is clearly superior because nobody ever needed a cat, but people regularly need dogs. And Camel's combat tangent (while irrelevant to the thread topic) is a similarly easy victory for dogs, who as a species are generally bigger and more powerful than cats.

[Noble Ire]

In any case, my earlier (unanswered) point stands. As pets, the dog is clearly superior because nobody ever needed a cat, but people regularly need dogs. And Camel's combat tangent (while irrelevant to the thread topic) is a similarly easy victory for dogs, who as a species are generally bigger and more powerful than cats.

From a historical and biological perspective, you are correct, but really, which pet is "superior" in a contemporary and practical sense is completely subjective, depending on the lifestyle and personal preference of each individual in question. Comparing them physically, and more ridiculously, matching the species up in a fight, completely misses the point (of course, if that was really the original point of the thread, the answer is quite obvious, as stated above).

[Darth Wong]

In any case, my earlier (unanswered) point stands. As pets, the dog is clearly superior because nobody ever needed a cat, but people regularly need dogs. And Camel's combat tangent (while irrelevant to the thread topic) is a similarly easy victory for dogs, who as a species are generally bigger and more powerful than cats.

From a historical and biological perspective, you are correct, but really, which pet is "superior" in a contemporary and practical sense is completely subjective, depending on the lifestyle and personal preference of each individual in question. Comparing them physically, and more ridiculously, matching the species up in a fight, completely misses the point (of course, if that was really the original point of the thread, the answer is quite obvious, as stated above).

No, actually you can quite easily make a utilitarian case for dogs being clearly (and in fact, massively) superior for the benefits they have offered (and continue to offer) to the human race, with no need to appeal to subjectivity. If anything, subjectivity is the only thing cats have going for them as pets.

[Joe]

My neighbour had a german shepherd who was a basically good dog but was always being harassed by one of the neighbourhood cats. One day he'd finally had enough and broke its neck. My neighbour quietly disposed of the carcass.

We had a similar problem. Two gray cats bugged my dog for years, and she would chew through the fence trying to get to them, costing my dad hundreds of dollars a year repairing the damn thing. Fortunately, this problem was partially mitigated when the cat fucked with the wrong dog who could actually get to it and got its spine snapped.

There are certainly bad dog owners who allow their pets to roam the neighborhood freely with absolutely no regard for their effect on other people (or the welfare of the animal, for that matter) - but for some reason, there are a LOT more bad cat owners, in my experience.

[Camel]

In any case, my earlier (unanswered) point stands. As pets, the dog is clearly superior because nobody ever needed a cat, but people regularly need dogs.

The only thing cats are good for are companions and pest removal. Dogs can perform both tasks equally well. They can also detect drugs and guide blind people, and herd cattle and sheep. Arguably, pigs, ponies, and donkeys could perform those tasks as well, or better. That's besides the point. Dogs are by far the most useful animal to humans, because they can perform all those jobs.

Except this thread is about the merits of Felis silvestris versus those of Canis lupis

I prefer all felines VS all canines. I would have included Foxes or coyote if they actually kicked more ass than a grey wolf. The wolf is just the best the canines can offer. I'm surprised no one has mentioned bears since they are distantly related to canines. You can be sure I would have complained about that.

a Tyrannosaurus isn't a bird, but a canary is a dinosaur. Depending on which taxonomist you talk too, the entire class Aves is actually a part of either class Reptilia (which included the dinosaurs) or a new class called Dinosauria, which includes all birds and all dinosaurs. Canaries are nothing but small, feathered therapod dinosaurs, and if you get to bring in lions to prove the superiority of cats, I get to bring in Tyrannosaurs to prove the superiority of birds.

T-rex and canaries share a similar ancestor in the very distant past. Birds are descendent from dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are not birds or vice versa. This is a gross exaggeration. This is like claiming a little monkey can kick my ass because its primate like a gorilla. All my examples are felines or canines. Why don't you bring in actual ass kicking birds? If I was you, arguing this point, I would have mentioned the terror birds of South America.

Camel's combat tangent (while irrelevant to the thread topic) is a similarly easy victory for dogs, who as a species are generally bigger and more powerful than cats.

I cannot use any other species except the domestic cats and dogs. Ok, if we compare a great dane vs the meanest 15lb orange tabby ever to exist; all we have achieved is to prove that a dog weighing 10x more can dominate a tiny little cat. That doesn't mean the cat is the inferior predator. For their small size cats are better. I guarantee you that same tabby is going to have no trouble beating a dog its own size.

I agree dogs are more useful to man, but cats are still better because they kick more ass

[Imperial Overlord]

As there is no such thing as a seeing eye cat I don't think that anyone is going to seriously argue that cats are more useful than dogs ( I prefer cats myself). As for bad dog versus bad cat owners, bad dog owners are far worse. Wandering cats at least tend to bury their shit when they violate your yard and bad cats aren't nearly as dangerous to humans as bad dogs.

[Camel]

As far claiming I am going completely off tangent. Superman never mentioned what this thread was specifically about. The title states : "Cats vs Dogs GET IT ON!!"
Then he lists the specifications of each opposing species and that's it. He never mentioned this was only about their merits as pets or excluded their ability to kick ass as criteria. I think I will respond to some of the things he wrote about.

Winner: Unclear. Cats hear higher frequences and pinpoint sounds maybe more accurately, but dogs may actually have a farther range. What do you think?

I think cats win this one. Their prey (mice) make high pitched sounds, so they are well suited to detect them. Then their swiveling radar dish ears can pin point its location accurately.

Winner: Unclear. Dogs survive on a much broader diet, but the cat has a more advanced digestive system for its diet, including a spiked tongue.

I think the dogs win this one. The cats specialized digestive system limits their menu to almost exclusively meat. Dogs, being able (and willing) to eat almost anything, can survive if all the mice and songbirds were to disappear.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, but my collie got maced doing the happy puppy greeting dance for the postman, when the animal that had attacked the previous postman was the ankle hunting siamese....

[Gil Hamilton]

I prefer all felines VS all canines. I would have included Foxes or coyote if they actually kicked more ass than a grey wolf. The wolf is just the best the canines can offer. I'm surprised no one has mentioned bears since they are distantly related to canines. You can be sure I would have complained about that.

The funny thing about grey wolves that chances are they are going to trounce virtually all cats out there in a fight. There is a very good reason for this. Coordination. A wolf never gets into a fight if it is alone unless it has absolutely no choice; it will run. Any fight wolves willingly get into involve their entire crew. This isn't true with big cats, except for lions, really. Even lioness prides often hunt in groups that rarely exceed six or so members; usually you get pairs and triples. That's why lions have problems in confrontations hyenas, because a hyena will bring fifteen to twenty of their best mates to the fight while lions don't.

If somehow a grey wolf pack crossed a lioness hunting party, putting aside the fact that chances are they'd respect each others distance, a fight breaking out would not be a fun fight for the lionesses. Wolves evolved from the get-go as pack fighters, it is what they excel at and why nothing matches a wolf pack in their range. Lionesses are not so coordinated. Hell, if you get the big variety of wolves like the ones you find in Alaska and Canada, pound for pound, your average lioness doesn't even outweigh a male wolf by all that much.

As fighters, making it all canines v. all felines hands it to the canines, simply because grey wolves are by far the smartest fighters of the lot.

I cannot use any other species except the domestic cats and dogs. Ok, if we compare a great dane vs the meanest 15lb orange tabby ever to exist; all we have achieved is to prove that a dog weighing 10x more can dominate a tiny little cat. That doesn't mean the cat is the inferior predator. For their small size cats are better. I guarantee you that same tabby is going to have no trouble beating a dog its own size.

Depends on the dog. If you find some daft toy breed, probably. However, there are terriers out there that will tear cats a new asshole. In fact, they were bred to dig out and go down burrowing animal tunnels and kill things that bite and scratch as much as cats. Terriers are little monsters like that. They've got very little nerve endings in their faces and have vastly more balls than sense. In cat and dog fights, usually cats survive not by physically beating the shit out of the dog, but scratching the dog up enough that the dog decides that it isn't worth it and backs off. If you know anything about terriers, "back off" isn't something their stupid little brains typically understand.

I agree dogs are more useful to man, but cats are still better because they kick more ass

Dogs (and canines) not only kick more ass, but they do it more efficently.

[Camel]

The funny thing about grey wolves... [snip] long post, entire post not needed[/snip].....

As fighters, making it all canines v. all felines hands it to the canines, simply because grey wolves are by far the smartest fighters of the lot.

Any REAL fight lions get into only involve the Male, and the (new) male(s). I agree, the wolf vs lion fight would never happen. At the most, the wolves and lions would do a lot of dick waving and chest beating and go their separate ways.

Lions also demonstrate good coordination in a hunt. One will slowly creep up into sprinting distance like cats do best. Then chase the prey a short distance and hand it off to another lion. Wolves do this aswell, but they aren't the least bit discreet about it. Lions are more selfish and not as loyal to the pride, like wolves are to their pack, but lions still work together.

The biggest difference is the wolves will nip away at their prey and keep handing off the chase to another and another. They wear it down until it collapses in exhaustion. Then, they simply start tearing away while the animal is still alive. Lions will try to trip the prey so it falls down; then clamp its jaws down and crush its wind pipe and asphyxiate it to death. A much more merciful and pleasant way to die than being eaten alive.

The only time the lions bring their entire crew out is to defend a fresh kill that a few of the other selfless lioness had the courtesy to kill. Your claim that lions have any difficulty with hyenas is not based on reality. Hyenas bow down to the mighty lion when they actually have something to defend. Lions only retreat when its just a clan of males without a pride of their own. Then the hyenas superior numbers actually work. They act just like wolves. Nip away and run and never let the lion focus on just one.

I am beginning to loose faith in my precious lions. I still maintain that if they are at their full strength, all working together for once (to get a free meal); they could still defeat your best wolf pack. The wolves would win in most other situations.
I would prefer to disarm the canines and remove their biggest advantage (working together), and focus on a one on one fight.

Cats kick more ass, and they don't need any of their buddies to help them.

[Darth Wong]

Cats kick more ass, and they don't need any of their buddies to help them.

You're a goddamned moron. First you say that the "big cats" (ie- a colloquial term for totally different but related species like tigers and lions) are better predators than wolves, ignoring the fact that wolves routinely use group tactics to take on much larger targets than themselves: a trait also seen in humans and one which is clearly beyond the ability or lions or tigers. Then you turn around and say that domestic cats are better than dogs because they're tougher for any given size.

Your fucking logic changes in order to suit your conclusion, asshole. So what is it? Not only are you persisting with this fucking red-herring, but you are being totally inconsistent. Are lions and tigers inferior predators to wolves because they have inferior abilities for any given size, or are domestic cats superior predators to dogs because all of a sudden you reject size differences as a valid factor?

Your mindless jacking-off behaviour is not particularly amusing, and your blatantly hypocritical use of completely contradictory logic pisses me off.

[Gil Hamilton]

No, a real fight wouldn't involve the male lions. Male lions are the single most lazy bastards in mammalia. They don't often fight anything except other male lions. Basically all they do is eat, sleep, and fuck. That's why lionesses do most of the hunting for a given pride, because male lions don't often get off their arses to expend the energy to hunt. The only time a male lion will bother itself to fight in our hypothetical battle if it is literally sitting on a kill that it is picking at and doesn't want to back off the hypothetical wolf pack. Even then, a big enough wolf pack may scare a male lion off in the same way a sufficently large gang of hyenas will. I'm willing to grant that as mind boggling lazy as male lions are, they are also stubborn.

Secondly, wolves are excellent hunters, and yes, they ambush prey. A wolf pack usually goes something like this. There is a good reason they wear prey animals down and eat them alive is simple; in a wolf pack, alphas generally eat first and so one in hierarchy, so the smart wolf will try to get his bites in while the thing is still thrashing around so to ensure he gets something, particularly if the wolf can get a bite at the nutritious organs. Not every hunt is successful (wolves, like all predators, are more miss than hit), so a wolfs gotta do what a wolfs got to do.

Thirdly, lions and hyenas often compete for kills. Both are opportunistic hunters. Often a lion pride will try and horn in on a hyena gangs kill and vice versa. However, lions will abandon there kill if the hyenas bring enough guys to the party, particularly if the hyenas had wisely been tailing the lionesses for the express purpose of jumping them for whatever the lionesses caught. Granted, they typically don't pick fights with big males, but they'll sure as hell force lions off a kill if they can.


As for your final bit, one on one fighting for wolves doesn't exist, so it is a red herring. Wolves, like human beings, strength comes from their ability to form social groups and work as a unit. That's what makes them so much more badass and stronger than virtually any cat species. Macho bull about one-on-one fighting is worthless when you've got espirt de corp working for you. Wolves are better than that; they fight as one.

[theski]

Might as well make a list.. DOGS WITH JOBS:::

Guide Dogs

Service Dogs

Hearing Dogs

Therapy Dogs

Cattle Dogs
Livestock Guardians

Search and Rescue Dogs

Tracking Dogs

Explosives Detection Dogs

Drug Detection Dogs

Arson Dogs

Military Working Dogs

Custom Dogs