A question about writers and readers in Star Wars

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
Faqa
Jedi Master
Posts: 1340
Joined: 2004-06-02 09:32am
Contact:

Post by Faqa »

Despite some personal beefs I have with his choices, Zahn's approach was interesting; his universe was more tactile, de-mythologized, but it took place after the fall of the Empire and its mood was appropriate. It had an aura of lost glory, faded power, and brilliant mortals trying to carry on where demigods had once trodden. That's why the Thrawn character works, despite certain bits of character wankery.
By personal beefs, I assume you mean the downscaling. As for the matter of fallen glory, yeah, for the Empire, that was pretty much their perception. Mara Jade especially embodies that idea. Half her character is about her losing that time.

For the Republic, I don't think it was really that. The demigods were, after all, still alive. It was more realizing that they well.... weren't really that. That you can blow up the Death Star, ride the explosion-wave out, give a fantastic "yee-haw!", and it makes things jack shit easier. That they've still got a long way to go, that the real war - rebuilding - is still a long one. As Luke points out, there's no magic wand to wave to make a five-year-old goverment any stronger or more united. Not even for a Jedi.

For the good guys? It was about disillusionment, more than anything else. And coming to peace with it in the end.
"Peace on Earth and goodwill towards men? We are the United States Goverment - we don't DO that sort of thing!" - Sneakers. Best. Quote. EVER.

Periodic Pwnage Pantry:

"Faith? Isn't that another term for ignorance?" - Gregory House

"Isn't it interesting... religious behaviour is so close to being crazy that we can't tell them apart?" - Gregory House

"This is usually the part where people start screaming." - Gabriel Sylar
User avatar
Edi
Dragonlord
Dragonlord
Posts: 12461
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:27am
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by Edi »

I haven't seen any evidence that Lucas gets a free pass. Fans have made their dislike of some of his decisions very clear (the infamous Greedo shooting first alteration, general hatred of Jar-Jar Binks), but there's little they can do about it and for the most part there has still been the respect for GL as the creator of SW.

As for the EU writers, people are less forgiving, for many of the reasons enumerated in this thread already. I suppose there are those fanboys who will lap up anything as long as it has the SW logo on it, but most of those with a more analytical mindset (here that would be almost everyone) will compare, contrast, analyze and call bullshit on any inconsistencies they see. Sometimes those inconsistencies and contradictions don't really make much of an impact despite being glaringly obvious (e.g. the scale in Zahn's books), but sometimes they defy all reason (e.g. the Traviss numbers).

Many people here have similar tastes on the EU based on the analytical approach, and generally the same books will be found at the bottom of the barrel.

In my personal opinion, Stackpole gets a bit of a raw deal, since if you remove the scale and most of the technical aspects, he writes good stories, at least in the early Rogue Squadron books. It's when Corran Horn turns into a complete Mary Sue that his SW writing takes such a drop in quality.

I've also said it before that with regard to his SW writing Stackpole suffers a little from his Battletech past, which is most notable in the battle scenes of the first X-Wing book, Rogue Squadron. They read like mech combat transplanted to space. The absurdly minimalistic scale of action inherent in the BT universe (confirmed by even the oldest BT sourcebooks) also colors some of his writing in SW, which is why so many here dislike his works.

-----

Then there is the whole Clone Wars numbers debate. If you want to read up on that, and it is something you will encounter sooner or later with SW, the nearly 40 page droid army retcon thread and the various Talifan-related threads on this forum will give you wealth of material. It's important to understand why that issue has become so inflamed and why there is now such a great rift in the SW fandom. The staff on the official SW site site, starwars.com, haven't helped matters, because it seems there is an unspoken requirement for all the writers and staff to support each other in the face of criticism, no matter what. That allowed the situation to fester and was helped along by the blatant abuse heaped on a significant segment of fandom simply because they voiced an opinion different from that held by some of the moderating staff. The dictatorial abuse of fans was going on long before the Traviss books, but it really came into its own after the 3 million number got tossed out.

I've followed the issue out of idle curiosity, as I stopped reading the EU after the first NJO books, and I've been completely flabbergasted by what I've seen. Given how absolutely shitty treatment the people who represent LFL and the SW franchise are giving their paying customers, I won't be buying anything from them anytime soon.

Edi
Warwolf Urban Combat Specialist

Why is it so goddamned hard to get little assholes like you to admit it when you fuck up? Is it pride? What gives you the right to have any pride?
–Darth Wong to vivftp

GOP message? Why don't they just come out of the closet: FASCISTS R' US –Patrick Degan

The GOP has a problem with anyone coming out of the closet. –18-till-I-die
User avatar
Crown
NARF
Posts: 10615
Joined: 2002-07-11 11:45am
Location: In Transit ...

Re: A question about writers and readers in Star Wars

Post by Crown »

KeVinK wrote:<snip>

In a similar vein, George Lucas was inspired by the Iraq War -- in which the US led a coalition against Iraq because they believed Iraqi disinformation about their nation's ability to manufacture and deliver WMD -- to introduce the idea that a relatively small army with excellent logistics had convinced its enemies it was much larger than it was. The fact of this disinformation -- one side making strategic and tactical decisions based on numbers wrong by a factor of ten, the other side keeping the myth alive -- opens all sorts of possibilities in terms of story telling. As I understand it, no one is questioning George Lucas' choice in this, but the writer who revealed the disinformation plot was pilloried.<snip>
What the ... ?

That's the first time I have heard about George Lucas being influenced much less inspired by the antics of the false war in Iraq. In fact I think that he has come out and spoke very publically that he didn't do any such thing with the GOP 'bash-Hollywood-machine' was in full swing.

We do know - on the other hand - that he was inspired by old World War II reels, hence explaining (out of universe) why Star Wars combat looks like it does and the fall of Rome (whether Republic into Autocracy or the literal sacking by the Vandals or a bit of both we can discuss later).

As to whether or not George gets a free pass; yes for the EU, NO for the movies. It's as simple as that really.
Image
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
User avatar
Mange
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4179
Joined: 2004-03-26 01:31pm
Location: Somewhere in the GFFA

Post by Mange »

KeVinK wrote:In your experience, is it true that Star Wars readers hold George Lucas harmless for decisions they do not like and instead focus their anger on the writers who carry out his orders?
No, while George Lucas gives directions, guidelines and approves things in the EU (he has also requested stories and contributed directly to the Star Wars Expanded Universe), the novel authors etc. are responsible for their own stories (the continuity editors etc. are also responsible to make sure that things stays true to the overall canon, a job which they haven't done very well lately).

With the specific example of the death of Chewbacca, it was approved by George Lucas, but initially it was a suggestion made by Randy Stradley of Dark Horse Comics. The initial idea was that Luke Skywalker would be killed off, but George Lucas vetoed that (Vector Prime e-book interview).

Your follow-up question has already been largely answered above.
Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Re: A question about writers and readers in Star Wars

Post by Jim Raynor »

I haven't heard of George Lucas modeling the Clone Wars after the recent Iraq War either. However, like Crown said, the World War II influences are well known. Lucas himself has been quoted describing the Clone Wars as a huge conflict that spread throughout the galaxy like fire. The Clone Wars being small in scale, with both sides believing it to be bigger by a factor of ten (it's actually a lot worse than that, official sources would have us believe that the scale was overestimated by billions of times), is entirely the creation of a certain EU writer. The story was altered to fit in with a ridiculously small number (likely a result of poor research or understanding of scale), instead of just simply getting rid of the bad number itself.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

I could buy Lucas saying that Republic citizens thought the war was going worse than it really was. But the idea of thinking that "minor brushfires" could be somehow exaggerated into a massive galactic-scale shooting war through propaganda alone is ridiculous. It would be like the Second World War actually being a few minor skirmishes; it's just not possible to conduct propaganda on such an absurd level. This smells like Traviss taking a quote from Mr. Lucas out of context as support for her bullshit.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

In a similar vein, George Lucas was inspired by the Iraq War -- in which the US led a coalition against Iraq because they believed Iraqi disinformation about their nation's ability to manufacture and deliver WMD -- to introduce the idea that a relatively small army with excellent logistics had convinced its enemies it was much larger than it was. The fact of this disinformation -- one side making strategic and tactical decisions based on numbers wrong by a factor of ten, the other side keeping the myth alive -- opens all sorts of possibilities in terms of story telling. As I understand it, no one is questioning George Lucas' choice in this, but the writer who revealed the disinformation plot was pilloried.
No. Not in the slightest.

Attack of the Clones came out in May 2002. The Iraq War started in March 2003. George Lucas clearly wasn't inspired by the Iraq War as he can't see the future

Even if you want to claim he made the decision later, again, No. I've had converstaions with authors who said they were told to use big numbers. There is a reason that sources talk about million dying from single commands, and the word quadrillion is used in several sources.

Further, Karen Traviss and Ryan Kaufman said they were responsible for the numbers, and that LFL dictated that there be no hard and fast number. The "Its disinformation" bit came out later - the original justification was that there where just huge kill ratios and there was no conspiracy. That's not something that can be twisted, its printed in black and white.

Karen Traviss didn't get pilloried for what she wrote. A lot of effort has been put into merging what she wrote with established canon. Karen Travis got pilloried for her antics after the fact. And apparently those antics now include lying about what she wrote.
Last edited by Ender on 2006-06-12 05:11pm, edited 1 time in total.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

This leads to an interesting question: just how far and wide is Traviss spreading her bullshit? It seems that people with no investment at all in this little dispute have effectively been taken in and hoodwinked by her now.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Jim Raynor
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2922
Joined: 2002-07-11 04:42am

Post by Jim Raynor »

Traviss (or her sycophant proxies) has been going to seemingly every internet forum that so much as mentions her or her work on SW. There also seems to be a lot of anti-intelligence/bookworm prejudice amongst the dork community. For example, Bryan Lambert claimed not to give a shit about the issue at all (even belittling SW Insider as something he didn't even know was still published, something an EU fanwhore would not do), but still found time to make fun of us "Talifans." The debate has been going on at TFN, the largest and most prominent SW forum, so a lot of non-fans or casual fans probably know about it. A lot of these "cool" casual nerds don't think very highly of us "obsessed" geeks who like to analyze things.
"They're not triangular, but they are more or less blade-shaped"- Thrawn McEwok on the shape of Bakura destroyers

"Lovely. It's known as impugning character regarding statement of professional qualifications' in the legal world"- Karen Traviss, crying libel because I said that no soldier she interviewed would claim that he can take on billion-to-one odds

"I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands"- Dark Moose on supporting your claims
RThurmont
Jedi Master
Posts: 1243
Joined: 2005-07-09 01:58pm
Location: Desperately trying to find a local restaurant that serves foie gras.

Post by RThurmont »

Attack of the Clones came out in May 2002. The Iraq War started in March 2003. George Lucas clearly wasn't inspired by the Iraq War as he can't see the future
We did see an Imperial officer using a PDA in ESB, 1990s-style specialized CATV offerings in THX 1138, and also, not to mention, the invention of an entirely new approach to film-making that every other studio imitated.

So while George Lucas obviously is not a prophet who could have forseen with precise clarity how the events of the Iraq war would unfold, he, like some of the other great science fiction authors whose work has been deemed "prophetic" (Verne, Wells, Gernsback, and Heinlein come to mind, as well as whoever the guy was who designed Captain Kirk's Moto RAZR and TabletPC) can arguably see more of the future than your average Joe Blow. So thus it is theoretically possible that some elements of what I personally consider to be the annoying liberal subplot to ROTS were in development as early as 2002, although they still were certainly not present to any noticeable degree in AOTC, which I would guess was filmed primarily in 2001 or thereabouts. Of course, the original stories for the PT were allegedly written in the early 1990s, making this whole line of discussion moot.

The aspects that are being discussed here (the similiarities between the Clone War and the Iraq War), in my opinion, are clearly not subplots that were deliberately inserted into the story with any degree of planning, and materialize in ROTS only in the form of, essentially, very basic one-line bits of dialogue paraphrased from George W. Bush speeches ("You're either with me, or your my enemy!!!"). The effect, apart from being stirring, strikes me as rather trite, and as a dramatic criticism of the current administration, ROTS is much less potent than, say, V For Vendetta, which, while annoying in its tone of voice, was, at the very least quite interesting and enjoyable even to me, a conservative.

By the way, lest I run the risk of sounding like a spirtualist who thinks that the SF writers mentioned above use some kind of mystical supernatural technique to predict the future, I'd like to quickly state that the reason why some SF writers are able to do that is they've managed to grasp the concept of "extrapolation," in which you basically analyze current trends in technology, politics, culture, et cetera, and plot them forward to their logical conclusion, balancing them against other trends. In the corporate world, professional "futurists" who do this for a living are currently in vogue, and some companies, notably Royal Dutch/Shell, have been doing this since the 1970s.
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer."
User avatar
Anguirus
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3702
Joined: 2005-09-11 02:36pm
Contact:

Post by Anguirus »

The aspects that are being discussed here (the similiarities between the Clone War and the Iraq War), in my opinion, are clearly not subplots that were deliberately inserted into the story with any degree of planning, and materialize in ROTS only in the form of, essentially, very basic one-line bits of dialogue paraphrased from George W. Bush speeches ("You're either with me, or your my enemy!!!").
Bush is hardly the first person to say that. Reading modern political stuff into Star Wars is a bit like trying to shoehorn LotR into an allegory of WWII.

The prequels are about the rise of a dictator. If this makes you instantly think of President Bush, perhaps you need to take a long, hard look at Bush instead of at Lucas. That is, unless you can come up with far more convncing evidence than one common enough phrase.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."

"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty

This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
-Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
My blog, please check out and comment! http://decepticylon.blogspot.com
RThurmont
Jedi Master
Posts: 1243
Joined: 2005-07-09 01:58pm
Location: Desperately trying to find a local restaurant that serves foie gras.

Post by RThurmont »

George Lucas made comments at the release of the ROTS about some of the political theming he inserted being inspired by real world events. Quite frankly, I'm the last person in the world who would say that Bush is a would-be dictator, and I found the political content to be childish, embarrassing and trite (and the only blemish on what is otherwise the best of the SW films), but Lucas is the one who put it there, and made a point of talking about it when the film was released.
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer."
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10706
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

Supposedly, Palpatine was based on Nixon -an opportunist who tried to start a war, then claimed credit for ending it and restoring order. I can buy the idea that the Separatists really were a Phantom Menace, but even phony threats need something behind them to make them believable. The idea that three million clones could police a galaxy, let alone fight a war is absurd. It's like someone writing a scenario where a single squad of WW2 Marines defeats Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

I don't care how tough those Marines are, how much air support they get, how stupid and inept their enemies are or whether those enemies are set up to take a dive like a boxer paid to throw a fight. Even a palooka has to make a fixed fight look convincing. If he flops to the canvas while the other boxer is still sitting in his corner and hasn't thrown a single punch, even imbeciles know the fight was rigged.

What really annoys me about Traviss is that she apparently puts more time into lying, smearing critics, playing the victim and otherwise making a nuisance of herself than she does in researching, thinking about, and writing her books. She's not the first to write something stupid. She is the first to smear and defame potential customers who bring it up.
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Re: A question about writers and readers in Star Wars

Post by Master of Ossus »

KeVinK wrote:Star Wars fans are generally regarded as unique in many ways.

Trek fans, for example, will complain bitterly because TPTB have made this-and-so change to the continuity (Example: In Star Trek the Romulans had one experimental ship with a cloaking device. In Enterprise -- 150 years earlier in the timeline -- the Romulans have fleets of cloaked ships and routinely use cloaked mines to blockade planets. And don't get folks started on Klingon make-up.) Of course, this is because film Star Trek is in the hands of an ever-changing committee and it's up to hard-working editors like Paula Block and Marco Palmieri to hold the print-fiction side of the universe together.
With Star Trek, it's pretty clear that TPTB are responsible for most of the major changes in the franchise because they bring in so many different writers and directors that they really are the only constant. I think that Star Wars contrasts with this because Lucas has rarely played a visible role in the EU--his name never appears on the cover of the books and comics like the Star Trek PTB were accredited after each episode. I'm unsure of how this relates to other universes, since I tend to follow series like Babylon 5 in which one man was clearly responsible for all major decisions in the series.
On the other hand -- and this is leading up to the question -- the legend in the writing industry is that Star Wars fans do not complain about choices George Lucas makes. If they do not like something in the story line, they hold the writer who wrote the story responsible.

The example cited was Chewbaca. Chewbaca was a marvelous character on screen -- but his energy, charm and effectiveness sprang from his physical actions and his unique language which everyone else understood. These attributes did not translate well into the printed page. George Lucas decided that rather than have the character limp along being depicted badly, Chewbaca should die. The way I got the story, no one protested Mr. Lucas' decision, but the writer who actually presented Chewbaca's death became a pariah.
I think, in that case, that fans simply didn't know Lucas had been involved in it. That would support the original hypothesis.
In a similar vein, George Lucas was inspired by the Iraq War -- in which the US led a coalition against Iraq because they believed Iraqi disinformation about their nation's ability to manufacture and deliver WMD -- to introduce the idea that a relatively small army with excellent logistics had convinced its enemies it was much larger than it was. The fact of this disinformation -- one side making strategic and tactical decisions based on numbers wrong by a factor of ten, the other side keeping the myth alive -- opens all sorts of possibilities in terms of story telling. As I understand it, no one is questioning George Lucas' choice in this, but the writer who revealed the disinformation plot was pilloried.
While I would generally agree with your original hypothesis, this description does not explain what happened during this incident. The writer in question was given instructions by TPTB that no numbers could be established (according to her co-author), but then appeared to ignore that guideline and fixed a number. When fans complained, she berated them across the internet and defended her number. She went on to issue death threats against people who disagreed with her. Many fans were not pleased by her actions, and while she herself has been the subject of most of the criticism, I think that she was subjected to this because of her actions after her work was published as opposed to the published materials. As evidence, I would submit that Michael Kube-McDowell committed an equally egregious mistake when he argued that Coruscant was not, in fact, a city planet but instead only had one continent that was urbanized with the rest being unsettled oceans. That was clearly his mistake, because TPTB in SW later went on to show Coruscant in the films and there were no visible oceans, but K-Mac was not heavily criticized by fans, who went on to simply ignore that passage and focus on the rest of his work.
Neither the Chewbaca writer nor the disinformation writer is a member of IAMTW.

My question:

In your experience, is it true that Star Wars readers hold George Lucas harmless for decisions they do not like and instead focus their anger on the writers who carry out his orders?
Star Wars fans, generally, are unaware of the level of involvement that Lucas has with the EU. I, myself, admit to being completely unaware of his influence over it--at times he exercises line-item veto powers over new texts that are written, and at other times he appears to approve of rough story-sketches that are then given to writers. I do not know whether his involvement changes depending o the project, or if it is consistent and the only inconsistency is in impression, but the result is that the writers are generally held accountable for what they sign their names to.
And, two follow up questions:

If this is not true, do you have any theories on why this misconception exists in the marketplace?

If it is true, why do you think Star Wars fans feel this way about the writers?

Thanks for any and all feedback.
I think it's because LFL and Lucas have both been rather vague as to what their involvement in the writing process is, and so the authors become the visible manifestations of the materials. Lucas was roundly criticized by many fans following TPM, and I would interpret that criticism as being because of his very visible role in the making of that film.

In general, I would say that SW fans are very forgiving of retcons compared to (say) ST fans, but because the series has been retconned so many times they also advocate for such measures when something does not appear to fit with continuity.

Hope that my opinions help, although you appear to have received good information from others.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

As for your reading list, definitely check out the Thrawn trilogy. A Stackpole book (probably Bacta War) is also mandatory because the guy's been VERY prolific in SW even though I don't like him nearly as much as most other people do, and then Denning's amazing Star by Star is the stand-out of the NJO books, for me (some fans argued it was too dark, but I enjoyed it despite its character death, which incidentally caused much less reaction than Chewie's death in Vector Prime but that's arguably because the character killed was a lit-only character).

Incidentally, if it came out tomorrow that Lucas had, in fact, created the 3,000,000 clones figure I would criticize him, too, but I would still criticize Karen for attempting to defend the number on logical grounds and I still wouldn't appreciate her statement that I deserve to be garrotted because I don't agree with the number.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

RThurmont wrote:George Lucas made comments at the release of the ROTS about some of the political theming he inserted being inspired by real world events. Quite frankly, I'm the last person in the world who would say that Bush is a would-be dictator, and I found the political content to be childish, embarrassing and trite (and the only blemish on what is otherwise the best of the SW films), but Lucas is the one who put it there, and made a point of talking about it when the film was released.
No, he said the exact OPPOSITE of that. He stressed repeatedly that it had nothing to do with Iraq and that it was more based off Vietnam, and that the similarities were accidental.
George Lucas wrote:It was really about the Vietnam War, and that was the period where Nixon was trying to run for a [second] term, which got me to thinking historically about how do democracies get turned into dictatorships?" Lucas said at his Skywalker Ranch earlier this month. "Because the democracies aren't overthrown; they're given away."
George Lucas wrote:"I didn't expect that to be true," Lucas said, then laughed. "It gets truer every day, unfortunately."
http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movi ... ovies_heds

The clone wars were not, at any point or time, concieved as a small scale trick war. The films make that very clear, as does out of universe interviews. Anyone claiming otherwise is simply wrong.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Darth Wong wrote:This leads to an interesting question: just how far and wide is Traviss spreading her bullshit? It seems that people with no investment at all in this little dispute have effectively been taken in and hoodwinked by her now.
I'm suprised there hasn't been anything here, in the form of either threats or of her and or the lackey showing up. On one hand I can understand if this place has an undesirable reputation that gets it written off, but on the other this is someone who had mods go after me for writing an essay where I never talked about her at all because it was an attack on her credibility.

If the number came from Lucas, it would be an attack on his, not hers. Funny that.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

RThurmont wrote:George Lucas made comments at the release of the ROTS about some of the political theming he inserted being inspired by real world events. Quite frankly, I'm the last person in the world who would say that Bush is a would-be dictator, and I found the political content to be childish, embarrassing and trite (and the only blemish on what is otherwise the best of the SW films), but Lucas is the one who put it there, and made a point of talking about it when the film was released.
There's no real indication that he ever intended it as political allegory for President Bush, particularly since the whole theme of a republic turning into a dictatorship was enshrined in SW lore since the 1970s. But it's rather telling that Republicans think any Hollywood piece about totalitarianism must be an attack on President Bush.

The problem here is not that Palpatine was designed to emulate President Bush, but that there are enough coincidental parallels between the two of them to make you uncomfortable as a Bush supporter. Why else would you interpret Palpatine as an attack on Bush? Do you honestly think George Lucas created Palpatine in order to attack the Bush Administration?
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
RThurmont
Jedi Master
Posts: 1243
Joined: 2005-07-09 01:58pm
Location: Desperately trying to find a local restaurant that serves foie gras.

Post by RThurmont »

The problem here is not that Palpatine was designed to emulate President Bush, but that there are enough coincidental parallels between the two of them to make you uncomfortable as a Bush supporter. Why else would you interpret Palpatine as an attack on Bush? Do you honestly think George Lucas created Palpatine in order to attack the Bush Administration?
OK, let me clarify my feelings on this, and also my knowledge of SW. When I first saw Star Wars, I had no idea that George W. Bush even existed. When I first saw Palpatine in ROTJ or ESB (I think I actually saw ROTJ first, for some stupid reason), I still had no idea that there was a future President of the US by that name. George Lucas obviously did not create Palpatine as an attack on the Bush Administration, since Palpatine has been a fixture of Star Wars films since 1980.

Now, when ROTS came out, I read an article that I believe was linked to from MSN Messenger or was otherwise part of the stupid mainstream media zeitgeist that quoted George Lucas talking about the political aspects of ROTS. It included the "I didn't expect that to be true" part but not the bit about the Vietnam War (which I was familiar with, in the context of the OT, via the commentaries in the DVD release anyway), so I assumed that whereas the OT had reflected on that war, ROTS was a reflection on the Iraq War, to a degree. I'm glad to have that bit clarified.

That said, if George Lucas did intend for the political theming in ROTS to be a criticism of the Bush Administration, it really does not ruin the film for me. It remains, in my opinion, the best SW film to date, and by now, I can assure you, I am fully de-sensitized to criticisms of the Bush administration (having heard them non-stop since the day he was elected). George Lucas is, in my opinion, one of the best creative people, and one of the best businessmen of all time, and I have no issues at all with his politics, whatever they are.
"Here's a nickel, kid. Get yourself a better computer."
Post Reply