Hypthetically Speaking: Should you defend your Country??
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
Hypthetically Speaking: Should you defend your Country??
I am not suggesting that every should join the army.
Suppose you country is being invaded by another country for the purpose of conquer. To dominate your lands and make you its subserviants.
All your citizens take up arms to defend your right to exist and live free on your homeland. However, certain others refuse to fight for their freedom. Should they be entitled to the same rights and freedoms if they refuse to defend it???
Discuss....
Suppose you country is being invaded by another country for the purpose of conquer. To dominate your lands and make you its subserviants.
All your citizens take up arms to defend your right to exist and live free on your homeland. However, certain others refuse to fight for their freedom. Should they be entitled to the same rights and freedoms if they refuse to defend it???
Discuss....
Why does everyone think that debate and discussion out here has to be some beligerent attack on the poster. Have you all been burned before or something?? You have all these rules for debating but apparently treating others respectfully until they disrespect you isn't one of them!!!! Color me deleted!!! Get help for your hostility.
- DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 18399
- Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
- Location: Iowa
- Contact:
- DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 18399
- Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
- Location: Iowa
- Contact:
Damn it, I phrased that horribly.
Okay, let's try again.
Taking up arms to defend your country means risking your life. Some people don't want to risk their life. What reason is there to discriminate against them for making that decision, if it's not required of them?
Okay, let's try again.
Taking up arms to defend your country means risking your life. Some people don't want to risk their life. What reason is there to discriminate against them for making that decision, if it's not required of them?
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
So should we rely on government to make it mandatory during a threat to our country? or if not... should we just all surrender?
Btw... I am not baiting or anything... I am just asking questions ... this discussion could lead anywhere.
Btw... I am not baiting or anything... I am just asking questions ... this discussion could lead anywhere.
Why does everyone think that debate and discussion out here has to be some beligerent attack on the poster. Have you all been burned before or something?? You have all these rules for debating but apparently treating others respectfully until they disrespect you isn't one of them!!!! Color me deleted!!! Get help for your hostility.
- DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 18399
- Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
- Location: Iowa
- Contact:
...Venomous wrote:So should we rely on government to make it mandatory during a threat to our country? or if not... should we just all surrender?
Nice either/or fallacy.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Its just my first thought to your response. I just wonder how citizens would feel if their neighbors were not willing to stand up and fight for the freedom, yet demand the priveledges of that freedom later. It would cause resentment wouldn't it?
Why does everyone think that debate and discussion out here has to be some beligerent attack on the poster. Have you all been burned before or something?? You have all these rules for debating but apparently treating others respectfully until they disrespect you isn't one of them!!!! Color me deleted!!! Get help for your hostility.
The let them be resented. Morally, if one wants to benefit by living in a country, they should be willing to sacrifice and perhaps even die in the effort to defend it. However, some simply will not do so, be it because they object to the method of defense somehow, are inhibited by some obligation or limitation, are too cowardly to risk their necks, or simply can't be bothered. The people who do fight may not like the people who do not, but if for whatever reason, the government doesn't require them to do so, they shouldn't expel them for not volunteering.Venomous wrote:Its just my first thought to your response. I just wonder how citizens would feel if their neighbors were not willing to stand up and fight for the freedom, yet demand the priveledges of that freedom later. It would cause resentment wouldn't it?
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
Ghetto Edit: Then let them be resented.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
- Darth Wong
- Sith Lord
- Posts: 70028
- Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
Name one society which has experienced 100% military mobilization in all of human history.Venomous wrote:Its just my first thought to your response. I just wonder how citizens would feel if their neighbors were not willing to stand up and fight for the freedom, yet demand the priveledges of that freedom later. It would cause resentment wouldn't it?
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
I’d hope that those fighting for ‘freedom’ would recognise that ‘freedom’ inevitably involves other people making decisions you might not agree with.Venomous wrote:Its just my first thought to your response. I just wonder how citizens would feel if their neighbors were not willing to stand up and fight for the freedom, yet demand the priveledges of that freedom later. It would cause resentment wouldn't it?
- BloodAngel
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 356
- Joined: 2005-05-25 10:47pm
- Location: DON'T GET TOO CLOSE OR ELSE!!!
Sparta?Darth Wong wrote:Name one society which has experienced 100% military mobilization in all of human history.Venomous wrote:Its just my first thought to your response. I just wonder how citizens would feel if their neighbors were not willing to stand up and fight for the freedom, yet demand the priveledges of that freedom later. It would cause resentment wouldn't it?
Blood Angel, the Hidden Name of Who You Know.
Zadius: "Done. I get turned on by shit. Nothin' else. "
Zadius: "Done. I get turned on by shit. Nothin' else. "
The male citizens of Sparta were it's military force, but even then, they were supported by a large slave underclass.
"preemptive killing of cops might not be such a bad idea from a personal saftey[sic] standpoint..." --Keevan Colton
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
"There's a word for bias you can't see: Yours." -- William Saletan
- Gil Hamilton
- Tipsy Space Birdie
- Posts: 12962
- Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
- Contact:
I would fight, but I wouldn't hold it against the people who didn't. Fighting a war, whether here or abroad, requires a certain kind of person. As long as they don't collaborate or decide they are unable to fight after being involved in doing so, I wouldn't be irritated with people saving themselves and their families rather than stand and fight. There will be alot of people standing and fighting and it would almost be a good idea for most people to try and stay in their homes and lives as much as possible, even during an invasion.
"Show me an angel and I will paint you one." - Gustav Courbet
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
"Quetzalcoatl, plumed serpent of the Aztecs... you are a pussy." - Stephen Colbert
"Really, I'm jealous of how much smarter than me he is. I'm not an expert on anything and he's an expert on things he knows nothing about." - Me, concerning a bullshitter
- SWPIGWANG
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1693
- Joined: 2002-09-24 05:00pm
- Location: Commence Primary Ignorance
Freedom includes the right to not devote one's life to something one does not believe in. Nations exists for individuals. Individuals do not exist for nations. Sometimes if might even makes more sense to not fight oppression when it causes greater harm. I will not hold their unwillingness to fight against them if they have good reason.
Besides, just because you don't fight doesn't mean you aren't contributing to the war effort. Somebody has to staff the factories and farms and generally hold up the logistical side of things. A modern army needs a huge amount of people behind the lines to keep it running; I think it's something like 20+ workers and support for every frontline soldier.
- DPDarkPrimus
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 18399
- Joined: 2002-11-22 11:02pm
- Location: Iowa
- Contact:
Quite so. I don't feel like going off and getting shot, but I'd certainly be willing to work to manufacture supplies for the war.Junghalli wrote:Besides, just because you don't fight doesn't mean you aren't contributing to the war effort. Somebody has to staff the factories and farms and generally hold up the logistical side of things. A modern army needs a huge amount of people behind the lines to keep it running; I think it's something like 20+ workers and support for every frontline soldier.
Mayabird is my girlfriend
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
Justice League:BotM:MM:SDnet City Watch:Cybertron's Finest
"Well then, science is bullshit. "
-revprez, with yet another brilliant rebuttal.
- K. A. Pital
- Glamorous Commie
- Posts: 20813
- Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
- Location: Elysium
I'm not exactly physically fit for being a grunt, however, I could take any other military assignment any given day. In an all-out war with an invader, I would. However, I would not say all citizens should be obliged to fight. If it gets serious to genocide, however, most of the population would mobilize itself anyway.
There, you have it.
There, you have it.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
- Gandalf
- SD.net White Wizard
- Posts: 16351
- Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
- Location: A video store in Australia
I'd consider joining up if I didn't have to fight. Mainly because I have a neuromuscular problem and I'd probably piss myself if someone shot at me.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
- Admiral Valdemar
- Outside Context Problem
- Posts: 31572
- Joined: 2002-07-04 07:17pm
- Location: UK
If I couldn't get into the armed forces, I'd work another way to help the war effort. I was having a similar discussion the other night with my old man where someone said that unless you fought in the forces, you weren't helping the war effort. Which I'm sure you'll all agree is bullshit, unless the military is a fully autonomous part of society now.
If that blokes right I can’t help but wonder how all the miners, steel workers and the rest tricked the government into classifying their professions as so important to the war effort that they wouldn’t be called up.Admiral Valdemar wrote:If I couldn't get into the armed forces, I'd work another way to help the war effort. I was having a similar discussion the other night with my old man where someone said that unless you fought in the forces, you weren't helping the war effort. Which I'm sure you'll all agree is bullshit, unless the military is a fully autonomous part of society now.
- K. A. Pital
- Glamorous Commie
- Posts: 20813
- Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
- Location: Elysium
It is. A person who is a worker, the hands and workforce of the war, is as much a veteran as the one who fights with the rifle the other guy made.Which I'm sure you'll all agree is bullshit
On a side note, did the U.S. or Britain (picking major WWII participants for comparison issues) ever give out medals to "heroes of labour" or "heroes of the homefront"? Because in USSR/Russia we have "veterans of labour" and specific medals "For heroic labour during Great Patriotic War 1941-1945". Is it common practice to give out medals for war labour?
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali
iirc not even members of the merchant navy got honoured.Stas Bush wrote:It is. A person who is a worker, the hands and workforce of the war, is as much a veteran as the one who fights with the rifle the other guy made.Which I'm sure you'll all agree is bullshit
On a side note, did the U.S. or Britain (picking major WWII participants for comparison issues) ever give out medals to "heroes of labour" or "heroes of the homefront"? Because in USSR/Russia we have "veterans of labour" and specific medals "For heroic labour during Great Patriotic War 1941-1945". Is it common practice to give out medals for war labour?
- K. A. Pital
- Glamorous Commie
- Posts: 20813
- Joined: 2003-02-26 11:39am
- Location: Elysium
Really? Weird. My grandmother was a "hero of labour", she had all fancy medals from the war, and many of her colleagues, too. She was an arms factory worker during the war. I guess honouring the home front workers is a USSR specific then.iirc not even members of the merchant navy got honoured.
Lì ci sono chiese, macerie, moschee e questure, lì frontiere, prezzi inaccessibile e freddure
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Lì paludi, minacce, cecchini coi fucili, documenti, file notturne e clandestini
Qui incontri, lotte, passi sincronizzati, colori, capannelli non autorizzati,
Uccelli migratori, reti, informazioni, piazze di Tutti i like pazze di passioni...
...La tranquillità è importante ma la libertà è tutto!
Assalti Frontali