Jim Luceno to pen Plagueis & Palpatine novel for Oct '08

[Noble Ire]

I thought that Dark Lord was great, personally. Vader's personification and slow genesis from Anakin into the character of the OT was rather well done, and the details on his condition, mentally and physically, the book provided were quite interesting. And I didn't mind the rest of the book that much, either; Shryne was one of the better minor Jedi characters I've seen in CW fiction.

[RThurmont]

I'm sure we can all agree that, at the very least, its a positive development that this assignment was not given to either KJA or Karen Traviss.

That said, I remain annoyed at the fact that they're making Plagueis be Palpatine's master. When watching the Squid Lake sequence in ROTS, one gets the distinct impression that Plagueis had been an ancient Sith lord, hence the story of him becoming a "legend" that the Jedi would be aware of, if not neccessarily willing to communicate to their young and temptation-vulnerable padawans. This was further reinforced later in the film when Palpatine says that the secret "had been lost" for some time, to the extent that the only way it could be found would be through extensive collaboration between himself and Vader.

While obviously you can say that Palpatine was lying, considering that he tells no other lies in the entirety of ROTS, it just strikes me that it would have been much more elegant, continuity-wise, to have Plageuis actually be some ancient, long-dead Sith lord, preferrably from before Darth Bane restructured the orde.r

[Anguirus]

Oh, I can't agree. Check out Palpatine's smirk when he's talking about killing him in his sleep. You know that was him. It sent a shiver down my spine.

My speculation is that Palpatine was so ambitious and yet so scared of the guy that he killed him before he could finish teaching him, figuring that he'd fill in the gaps with extensive research into Sith lore. Or...the eternal life stuff could have all been calculated BS to turn Anakin.

[Donraj]

What is it about 'Dark Lord' that you didn't like? Generally everyone I have spoken to about both 'Dark Lord' and 'Labyrnith of Evil' consider them to be fine books and it is rare for an EU writer to have two back to back winners like that.

Well, first off, he began by stomping on one of my pet theories about Revenge of the Sith by having a group of clones refuse to obey Order 66. I'd always thought, based off of the Revenge of the Sith novelization, that the clones had been conditioned to obey the Jedi-killing order automatically from conception, which is how the Jedi were somehow unaware of a plot to kill them involving hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people, including many (as we see with Commander Cody and Obi-Wan in the Revenge of the Sith novelization) who had been friends and comrades of the Jedi in question for years. It also explained why their prescience failed to work normally. The clones weren't acting out of any sort of malice or anger, they were simply mechanically following pre-set orders. But now, at least according to what I assume is official canon, that isn't the case. Which as far as I'm concerned manages to actually make the movie itself less plausible. All within the first fifty pages. Not a good start.

But since trampling on my pet theories isn’t a crime (should be) let me get on to the major reasons I think the book is terrible.

First of all, the characterization of Vader and Palpatine is terrible, and the great dynamic we saw between them in the Revenge of the Sith is utterly gone. Palpatine goes from the greatest manipulator in the universe to threatening Vader with Force Lightning if he doesn’t comply, and crows about how that would short out his cybernetics. Oh, and now he calls Vader “My son.” Because apparently now he’s the Sith Pope.

But the worst part of all has to be the horrible, horrible treatment of Vader’s characters. There’s none of the menace we normally associate with Vader. People mouth off to his face and they don’t die. When he interrogates people he roughs them up like a thug, instead of the normal procedure, where Vader walks into the room, the person in question pisses himself in terror and starts babbling everything he knows even before Vader starts Force choking him. He’s generally inept in combat, which they do explain as lack of confidence and bad cybernetics, but even at the end he’s not particularly impressive.

Granted, the explanation is that Vader was still adapting to his new body and powers, but still, it was such a pathetic showing all around, especially compared to the brilliant characterization in Michael Stover’s Revenge of the Sith novelization, which I maintain is Revenge of the Sith the way it should have been.

Its even more of a pity since yes, Labyrinth of Evil was a good Star Wars novel and I went into Dark Lord knowing that it was written by a man who’d done decent work in the universe before. I ended up reading a book that consisted of Darth Vader killing people and somehow not being entertained, and I’m just glad I didn’t actually pay for the thing.

[Noble Ire]

But the worst part of all has to be the horrible, horrible treatment of Vader’s characters. There’s none of the menace we normally associate with Vader. People mouth off to his face and they don’t die. When he interrogates people he roughs them up like a thug, instead of the normal procedure, where Vader walks into the room, the person in question pisses himself in terror and starts babbling everything he knows even before Vader starts Force choking him. He’s generally inept in combat, which they do explain as lack of confidence and bad cybernetics, but even at the end he’s not particularly impressive.

Wow. You seem to have completely missed the point of character development.

Why the hell would Vader immediately become exactly like the Sith Lord of the OT? Dark Lord takes place, what, a month after ROTS? Though he has been forever changed by the events of the movie, and is already well on his way to becoming the iconic villan, he is still very much Anakin, as he should be at that point. Why would people be automatically terrified of him? Vader is feared because of his reputation, not because he has some magic "Force Fear" ability; he may be menacing in appearence, but that's hardly enough. And I thought Vader made a very good showing of himself, especially considering that for most of the book, just walking around is an excruciating activity; hell, at the end, he easily dispatches two Jedi knights at the same time, while under heavy enemy fire and in hostile territory.

[000]

Donraj, you ought to read Purge. I guarantee you'll enjoy it.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

When he interrogates people he roughs them up like a thug, instead of the normal procedure, where Vader walks into the room, the person in question pisses himself in terror and starts babbling everything he knows even before Vader starts Force choking him.

Which is why Captain Antilles immediately told Vader about the Death Star plans and Vader just said "Ok" and left after randomly force choking him, right?

[Donraj]

Why the hell would Vader immediately become exactly like the Sith Lord of the OT? Dark Lord takes place, what, a month after ROTS? Though he has been forever changed by the events of the movie, and is already well on his way to becoming the iconic villan, he is still very much Anakin, as he should be at that point.

Anakin Skywalker died the moment Palpatine told him he'd killed Padme and he didn't come back until twenty years later at Endor.

Why would people be automatically terrified of him? Vader is feared because of his reputation, not because he has some magic "Force Fear" ability; he may be menacing in appearence, but that's hardly enough.

Well, he's Vader. Part of the terror he inspired came from his reputation, yes, but part of it is from the sheer sense of presence that radiated from him. Which is the part that had people in the theater in awe of him on his first appearance.

And I thought Vader made a very good showing of himself, especially considering that for most of the book, just walking around is an excruciating activity; hell, at the end, he easily dispatches two Jedi knights at the same time, while under heavy enemy fire and in hostile territory.

I was distinctly unimpressed.

000

Donraj, you ought to read Purge. I guarantee you'll enjoy it.

That would be a comic, right? I heard its pretty good, with Vader simultanously taking on about half a dozen masters or something to that effect. I'm sure I'd love it, but comics aren't much my thing, sadly.

Grandmaster Jogurt:

Which is why Captain Antilles immediately told Vader about the Death Star plans and Vader just said "Ok" and left after randomly force choking him, right?

Meh, been awhile since I saw ANH, or any of the original movies. I've always paid more attention to the EU. Although people have reminded me of that he does grab a Rebel commander by the neck in the first movie. Still, I thought it was pretty out of character. There's a certain charisma that any portrayal of Vader should have. Vader didn't have it in Dark Lord, not at the beginning and not at the end.

[000]

Heh. I'm being sarcastic-- the comic one-shot features Vader taking on eight or so Jedi and getting his ass kicked in the process. And getting rescued by his troops. It's a great little story because, once again, it shows how Vader is still adapting to his new situation. But you'd hate it, since you seem to be of the "insta-Vader-- no growth allowed" school of thought.

[Donraj]

Heh. I'm being sarcastic-- the comic one-shot features Vader taking on eight or so Jedi and getting his ass kicked in the process. And getting rescued by his troops. It's a great little story because, once again, it shows how Vader is still adapting to his new situation. But you'd hate it, since you seem to be of the "insta-Vader-- no growth allowed" school of thought.

I recognize that he needs to grow into the Vader we all know, yes. I just really don't like the way Lucereno went about doing it, because he made Vader weaker, physically and mentally, then I ever think he should have been post-Mustafar. He wouldn't have become the nightmare of the Imperial Navy overnight, no, but after the movies the foundation was there. Dark Lord's Vader really struck me as pathetic, much more so then we ever needed to see him be.

...Plus I bought the book expecting to see Vader kicking ass and wiping out entire fortresses. There, I said it.

And either way I think my problems with the characterization of Palpatine and Vader stand.

Eh, sorry if I've derailed the thread.

[Tiriol]

Donraj:

Palpatine was very much the manipulator - didn't you notice how he manipulated Vader to unleash his anger? He didn't threaten to use the Force Lightning if Vader didn't do what he wanted, he asked whether Vader was ready to face him knowing fully well that Palpatine's most trusted method of combat consisted of a Sith lightning which could play merry hell on Vader's life support system and the Emperor got the answer he wanted. Hell, Palpatine continued to manipulate the Senate and everyone else through hsi agents. Remember the angry barter between Sate Pestage and Bail Organa? Remember how Palpatine reassured the Senators that the Senate was still very much needed and respected, that the office of the Emperor wouldn't act any different from the office of the Supreme Chancellor?

And Vader grew enormously during the book: in the beginning he was still very much RotS' Anakin with all the self-esteem and self-control troubles, but in the end, he killed several Jedi mercilessly, efficiently, and even toying with them, overcoming his limitations. He had received the name of Vader from Palpatine; and when he heard that he had killed Padmé, it shattered and distanced him emotionally even more than being abandoned by Obi-Wan - but it's not good if a Sith Lord is emotionally weak and that's why the novel was needed. It explained how the feared Dark Lord became what he is. Transisition didn't happen overnight, Vader had to adapt to new fighting styles, to his new condition, and to what it meant to be a Sith. Remember that Palpatine had told him in RotS how similar the Jedi and the Sith were; in DL, Palpatine starts to unveil the true mysteries and meanings of the Sith to Vader. And yes, Vader did grap an officer by the neck in Episode IV. It is possible that he was just frusfrated about the whole thing (he had to chase Tantive IV) and wanted to do some physical damage.

I, for one, liked Luceno's Dark Lord and I am looking forward to this new book. Luceno's work is of astoundingly good quality when compared to most of the EU (and an emancipated-looking Muun is pretty much how I imagined Plagueis anyway - not necessarily a Muun, mind you, but someone who does look like he hadn't had food or water for God knows how long).

[RThurmont]

Oh, I can't agree. Check out Palpatine's smirk when he's talking about killing him in his sleep. You know that was him. It sent a shiver down my spine.

It struck me that Palpatine was merely revelling in what to him was the delicious thought of the Sith apprentice killing his master, in the time honored tradition of the Sith Order. Palpatine arguably could have been reflecting on the similiarties between Darth Plageuis's demise and however Palpatine managed to dispatch his own master (remember, even if Palpatine's master wasn't Darth Plagueius, unless he was killed in a freak accident, Palpatine would have inevitably murdered him anyway).

[Cykeisme]

Why the hell would Vader immediately become exactly like the Sith Lord of the OT? Dark Lord takes place, what, a month after ROTS? Though he has been forever changed by the events of the movie, and is already well on his way to becoming the iconic villan, he is still very much Anakin, as he should be at that point.

Anakin Skywalker died the moment Palpatine told him he'd killed Padme and he didn't come back until twenty years later at Endor.

Surely you don't take that statement that literally, do you?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Meh, been awhile since I saw ANH, or any of the original movies. I've always paid more attention to the EU. Although people have reminded me of that he does grab a Rebel commander by the neck in the first movie. Still, I thought it was pretty out of character. There's a certain charisma that any portrayal of Vader should have. Vader didn't have it in Dark Lord, not at the beginning and not at the end.

It isn't. Vader has strangled quite a few people, including his own Admiral and captain for failures, and I believe some general in ANH also got the strangle for questioning the existence of the Force. Inspiring fear with his use of the Force to strangle others is a trademark Vader. Then there is ROTJ where Vader was practically a pet puppy when Palpatine arrives.

I never quite recalled any charisma when it came to Vader in the movies. It was rather more like the various officers were holding their throats when they did something wrong. And even before becoming Vader, Anakin always displayed some kind of brutish personality, noting his anger at the bounty hunter who attacked Padme, and then his extermination of the Sand people.

[Darth Fanboy]

snip

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If it were MY forum, you'd both recieve temp bans until you watched the entire OT

[Cykeisme]

I would be greatly excited about this if it wasn't being written by the same man who gave us the Sith Pope.

Oh, and now he calls Vader “My son.” Because apparently now he’s the Sith Pope.

If it were your forum, Darth Fanboy, you'd have to ban Donraj until he watches the entire PT, too. Palpatine refers to Anakin as "son" in the movies. And what's wrong with that? He knew the boy since he was nine.

Such scathing criticism for Luceno, undeserved, and even if it were, unwarranted.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh, and now he calls Vader “My son.” Because apparently now he’s the Sith Pope.

If it were your forum, Darth Fanboy, you'd have to ban Donraj until he watches the entire PT, too. .[/quote]

Then it is settled, in Bizarro-SDNet where I am king, you get to be PSW Mod.

Oh, since I don't seem to see a recent thread on it, i'll pose my question here. Is Drew Karpyshyn as good as Luceno? He's the author of the upcoming Darth Bane book.

[000]

It's hard to judge-- he has only a couple media tie-ins to his name now, but he was the cheif writer for KotOR so he's certainly experienced in SW. The excerpt released awhile ago on HS was very well written.

[Ender]

This looks pretty good. I just hope Luceno doesn't do what he did in Dark Lord and place the focus on someone other than Palpatine.

He needs to do exactly that. Else he will make Sidious a sympathetic character and he will ose his menace.

That said, I have good feeling about htis. It might be the book to make me break my boycott (depends on antics in the mean time). The only way I could be more set is to have Stover doing it, but since it appears that Stover and Luceano are turning into an unofficial team ala Stackpole and Zahn, I'm cool with it.

[000]

With any luck, Stover'll get the February hardcover. It's doubtful though.

EDIT: It seems this book will be mainly about Plagueis anyway, not Palpatine.

[Darth Fanboy]

It doesn't need to go too in depth as to Sidious' training, but I would love to find out more about Plagueis and how he went about choosing his apprentice. How ironic would it be if Sidious turned out to be the first Human Sith Apprentice in several generations?

Edit:

Punctuation