The idiocy that is Star Wars astropolitics

[Talloway]

Again, I'm not defending the Empire here so much as illustrating that I see nothing positive about the Old Republic, given that it is constantly bashed in Episodes I and II. So, I do not see why anyone would logically wish to hand the reigns of power back to those who ruled an already failed political system.

Two things refute this:

1. You are assuming that the New Republic will be just like the old Republic, warts and all. Just because the Old Republic was corrupt and a bad thing, it doesn't mean that the Rebellion/New Republic would be as well. The Old Republic worked pretty well for several thousand years, it was just recently (in SW-time) that it went astray. The Rebellion, for all we know, could have been espousing a Jeffersonian "rewrite the constitution every generation" approach or another method of fixing the problems of the old Republic.

2. Luke is an idealist. He and Han are clearly opposites: Han is the mercenary with no loyalty to anyone but himself and his wallet, Luke is the naive kid. Luke saves Princess Leia because he thinks she's hot and she's a damsel in distress. Han does because he'll get a reward. Whatever flaws the Rebellion/New Republic had, Luke may not have seen them at that point. And, even if he had, like any good idealist, better hte possible harm in the future than the known harm in the present.

This just illustrates my point about the four planet universe of Star Wars, and the fact that everyone must know everyone.

This would only be a problem if the "four planets" you complain about comes about because of mere coincidence. Anakin's "immaculate conception" backstory pretty clearly indicates that there is a lot more than mere coincidence at work. You might as well complain that Bilbo stumbled onto the One Ring and just so happened to pass it on to his cousin who was friends with the gardener and the two of them together had just the right combination of luck, pluck and courage to see the Quest through to the end. The prophecy that Anakin will bring balance to the force or whatever drives it is prima facie proof that characters are being used by some greater power to achieve an end.

[Vympel]

A bloody good first post, Talloway.

[Crazy_Vasey]

1.2 million clonetroops is 1.2 million elite shocktroops not grunts, like stormtroopers in the Empire (hell they're basically the same thing) they probably started up a massive recruitment program to put together your bog standard army but did it off screen. It's not like we need to be bashed over the head with every little thing.

Anyway ground troops probably aren't all that important when you can blast them with impunity from orbit. I know that in Star Wars Supremacy I always just blew defences to pieces then marched on it with the cheapest units I could get

[Lord Pounder]

To counter the Luke Skywalker crap i would like to point something out in a later EU book i can't remember which i think it was part 1 of the black fleet crisis Luke theorises that Obi Wan and Yoda used Luke to draw Vader and the Emperor out. Don't forget Palpy shit a brick when he heard about the existance of the son of Skywalker. Obi Wan kept himself near-by incase Vader found him early.

[Sir Sirius]

When I heard the "200,000 units ready at the moment. 1,000,000 more 'well on the way" statement in AOTC for the first time my interpretation was that 'unit' meant '1 clone'. I think I'll need a bit more then speculation that it might have meant 1 team/squad/or any else military unit before I change my mind.
Though I'll admit that if Ep.III says that 'unit' meant more then '1 clone' I wouldn't consider it to be an continuity mistake.

The Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery. As for slavery in the Empire, there isn't any canon evidence that it is legal. Just because Jabba has slaves as someone pointed out doesn't make it legal. Jabba is a crime lord.

Didn't the Empire use Wookie slaves at the Maw facility?
And I do seem to recall there being several other mentions of enslaving the Wookies in the EU. Not to mention all the references to slavers and to the slave trade heard in the EU.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Well Jabba...but as to all of Tatooine...it wasn't shown as common.

But true, and that and I doubt Oola was there just of her own free will persay.

Actually, the Empire at the time during Endor were moving on the Hutt Empire too finally finish off the illegal Hutt Empire.

Wrong.

Tattoine is not in Hutt Space.

Hutt Space's sectors had Moffs. They were just paid off and everyone pretended it was there. One Moff sent an Admiral with a trio of old Dreadnoughts but they were fought off and the Moff bought off. It was Imperial territory--but this is a key lesson: The Empire either scrangles its territories with punative taxation, ideological screening, and terror strikes, or it leaves them even more open to corruption and crime then under the Republic..as long as the administrators and bueracrats are paid off.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Empire also permitted Trandoshan hunting of Wookies. Basically the Empire exploited the Outer Rim or allowed it to rot. The Colonies and Core were simply turned into a police state with happy COMPNOR ideological testing and indoctrination.

They also looked the other way for much of the slave trade.

Palpatine himself used crime syndicate chiefs as minions. You don't think he realized what Xizor really did? How much do you think this all syphoned off the economy?

The Empire siezes whole enterprises if single family members are incriminated in Rebel sympathies. Often these enterprises are assimilated by the Empire itself or cut up and sold to criminals, mercenaries, or corrupt business with close ties to Imperial administators. (X-Wing Alliance)

[Durandal]

Vader probably found out he had kids just after ANH. The Imperials had his, Chewie's and Han Solo's name after the destruction of the first Death Star, according to a Wanted poster in the WEG books, so you'd think that Vader probably went, "Wow, Skywalker, huh? What a coincidence ..." and eventually figured out by the projected age of Luke, that that was around the first time he nailed Amidala (that kind of thing would stick in your head, even after turning to the Dark Side ).

[Pcm979]

Has anyone else noticed that Moff Jerrijod's points rely on only using the movies as evidence? The SW universe includes the EU as well, you know. And if you're thinking of pulling the "but Lucas is contradicting it" gag, then you should know that EU "apologists" have explained away a great deal of "contradictions" without having to strain their brains.

[Darth Wong]

Going back to the original points:

In it, Obi Wan learns that someone in the Senate has ordered the creation of a Clone Army of 200,000 men. Mind you, this army is supposed to wage an intergalactic war. That's absurd.

No, and no. The army is 200,000 men early, with another million on the way and many more batches coming afterwards. Didn't you notice all of the young ones? They're churning them out for mass-production; you act as though there's one production batch and then they shut down the whole works. As for the scale, it is the Navy that wages most of the war. The Army is only necessary for those incidents where they need to actually take a world or important facility by force.

Another problem I have with all of Lucas's films is the way that he tries to paint some sort of clear distinction between the Empire and the Rebellion. The black and white 'good and evil' he tries to portray doesn't even make any sense. For example, look at Tatooine. In the days of the Old Republic, slavery and forced child labor is rampant. Can someone tell me exactly what the Empire is doing on Tatooine that makes Luke hate it so, aside from getting rid of the slavery that his grandmother endured and allowing people like Biggs to go freely "to the academy." Yeah, sounds horrible.

You're an idiot. The whole point of the prequels is that the Old Republic was rotted and corrupt. Do not confuse the Old Republic with the Rebellion.

Even worse than that is the fact that these horrible new films pay absolutely no attention to the continuity established in the prior films. For example, Luke is raised by his uncle Owen. Owen is given the child by Obi-Wan, if the novelizations are to be believed. So, we see in Episode II that Anakin visits the home of Owen and Beru. Now, once Obi-Wan steals Luke, it never occurs to Darth Vader to go check on his home planet, or keep tabs on his brother?

He doesn't give a shit about his half-brother. He blames him for letting his mother die. And he doesn't know Luke exists. Duh.

Or how about the fact that C-3PO ends up working on Owen's farm in Episode II. Now, in Star Wars C-3PO says his first job was working on a moisture farm. I know, his memory was erased you'll say. He just happens to remember he worked as a moisture farmer?

His first job (after the wipe) was programming binary load lifters, idiot. Not working as a moisture farmer.

And what about Owen? Was his memory erased too? I'm sure it's not everyday that a moisture farmer runs into an effeminate protocol droid and it's spunky R2 unit companion.

They weren't companions in Ep2. R2D2 came with Amidala and mostly stayed on her ship. And protocol droids are ALL effeminate, so there's no reason to have particular recollection of one of them.

While I'm on the subject of amnesia, why doesn't Obi Wan remember R2D2 and C-3PO. "I don't remember ever owning a droid before." Hmm, do you remember saving the galaxy with an effeminate protocol droid and spunky R2 unit that you had dialogue with that look remarkably like these two, one of which was of course built by your arch-enemy.

Hmmm, do you remember Obi-Wan not taking any notice whatsoever of the droids?

I could go on for quite some time, but I'll just start with these points. In the meantime, I'll just travel to one of the four planets that apparently make up the entire Star Wars universe.

It would be a stretch to say that Star Wars has no plot holes. However, its plot weaknesses are nothing compared to those of the rapidly decaying Star Trek franchise, and the ones you point out are grossly exaggerated.

[Darth Fanboy]

Doesn't it seem more likely that, rather than a complete memory wipe (which might be obvious) only selections of R2's and 3PO's memories were selectively deleted? Probably the droids were given by Padme to Bail Organa. Selected portions of their memories deleted to cover up the birth of Luke and Leia. 3P0 might not even recall he had ever been to Tatooine.

200,000 might not seem like much, but to gro from Zero to 200,000 in a short time is definitely a drastic step.

[Setzer]

Well, in defense of the Old Republic, they respond to rebellions by sending in armies and elite forces.

This is as opposed to the Imperial method, which involves turning 3rd party planets (whatever their sympathies) into asteroid belts to make a statement.

Granted that the Republic as it existed at that time was probably beyond saving (Shades of Rome, or perhaps Foundation), one could wish for a somewhat less frightening intrim government.

Alderaan was secretly rearming to aid the rebellion, the SW version of a terrorist training camp.

[SPOOFE]

Well, given that the Old Republic couldn't prevent slavery, that is hardly a ringing endorsement of its era.

Yes, the terrible, terrible Old Republic, wouldn't go out of its way to force hegemonies not under its control to comply with their law. How dare they not act tyrannically!

Why on Earth would you hide on the planet of Vader's birth

Last place Vader would look.

Again, since it's such a huge galaxy, why must the action take place on Tatooine in the new films?

You ever see Citizen Kane? Considered by many to be one of the best films ever made. Takes place almost entirely in a single location.

Yeah. Citizen Kane sucks, since there's SO MANY locations that they can take advantage of, but they don't.