Which Gundam series is worth watching?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-14 09:21pm

What ever happened to the heroes like Woody and Matilda? Man, ever since F91 it's been nothing but, "Let's use a bunch of kids in the R-44 Guntank as a civillian shield!" and "Zomg! Nuke Gundam!" and don't forget, "Let's kill our own troops just to make an explosion!" So much waste.

Dendrobius · Post by **Dendrobius** » 2006-06-14 10:32pm

VF5SS, some good series like 08th MST came after F91, so I don't think you ought to be complaining THAT badly there about the lack of heros. Norris Packard goes down in my books as one of the best characters in the Gundam franchise.

Gundam manga and gaidens as a general rule are far better than the anime. The current running mangas Char's Deleted Affair and Ecole du Ciel are both fairly fascinating. Gundam Sentinels, if they ever made it into a series, would rival even Zeta Gundam easily in terms of storyline, espcially in the way it depicts semi-realistically how an immature brat can grow up to become a man. Hathaway's Flash would be pretty awesome too in the 0080 kind of way.

Why Bandai don't go and do things like that (animate Sentinels, or Hathaway's Flash, or even grab whoever does the story for the mangas and get them to create a new series) but instead churn out rubbish like the SEED series is beyond me.

Actually, come to think of it, even the manga/gaidens of SEED blow the animated series away. The various Astray series were very good, especially Destiny Astray. Heads and shoulders above SEED or Destiny by far. SEED Stargazer's due out very soon as well, the trailer looks interesting but considering how short it's going to be (3x 15min episodes?) I don't know what they can really pack into there.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-14 10:43pm

I'm not a big fan of 08th MS Team. Too more pointless retconning (Gundams everywheres!) and a weak starcrossed love affair. I also really hate the Gouf Custom. You don't mess with the Gouf design! I am also mostly opposed to the 13 episode OVA format in general.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2006-06-15 01:34am

VF5SS wrote:I'm not a big fan of 08th MS Team. Too more pointless retconning (Gundams everywheres!)

Gundams that still aren't as good as Amuro's. After all they were made out of spare parts and they use 80% of the same parts as a Ground-type GM.

. I also really hate the Gouf Custom. You don't mess with the Gouf design!

What are you kidding? The gouf custom is infinitely cooler than the original.

Commander 598 · Post by **Commander 598** » 2006-06-15 02:28am

VF5SS wrote:What ever happened to the heroes like Woody and Matilda? Man, ever since F91 it's been nothing but, "Let's use a bunch of kids in the R-44 Guntank as a civillian shield!" and "Zomg! Nuke Gundam!" and don't forget, "Let's kill our own troops just to make an explosion!" So much waste.

They've never been on top of the moral mountain. Revil was also tossing nukes around at Loum. The Feds are also responsible for putting people in space whether they wanted to or not.

The Federation actually sold Axis to the second Neo Zeon, despite knowing damn well what they planned to do with it...

By F91 and beyond they might as well be compared to a termite infested house as far as corruption goes. The Fed. President thought the whole CV invasion was rumor.

They almost didn't participate in Victory.

Hell, I guess they've been the bad guy since the beginning...

What are you kidding? The gouf custom is infinitely cooler than the original.

Concurred.

Gundams that still aren't as good as Amuro's. After all they were made out of spare parts and they use 80% of the same parts as a Ground-type GM.

Not to mention not being piloted by newtypes.

I'm not a big fan of 08th MS Team. Too more pointless retconning (Gundams everywheres!)

Well, Project V had better damn well've pumped out more than a single unit to counter Zeon. That and it helps to make it less super-robotish.

Dendrobius · Post by **Dendrobius** » 2006-06-15 06:14am

VF5SS wrote:I'm not a big fan of 08th MS Team. Too more pointless retconning (Gundams everywheres!) and a weak starcrossed love affair. I also really hate the Gouf Custom. You don't mess with the Gouf design! I am also mostly opposed to the 13 episode OVA format in general.

Well, that retconning wasn't as bad as the mind bending things they had to do to shoehorn in the sheer amount of RX-78-xs which popped up everywhere in other stories. RX-78-4, -5, -6, -7, then you have RX-78XX Gundam Pixie and FA-78-1 and FA-78-2. I can live with the RX-79[G] given that it's stated to be nowhere near as good as the original, designed only for ground combat, thrown in pretty much as a pre-production test model for the GMs to come, and consequently lacking support as can be seen from Shirou's trashed 79[G] being cobbled back together as Ez8, and Karen's head being replaced by a GM's one.

The love affair in 08th MST was fairly thin, but then again, barring Garrod/Tifa and Domon/Rain (yes, G Gundam IMHO had the best love story), there hasn't really been a good love pairing in any Gundam:

- Amuro/Char/Lala storywise was actually not that terribly strong (ZOMG Newtype reaction! Love not even at first sight)
- Amuro/Chien Agi was bah
- Camille/Four was a replay of Amuro/Lala
- Camille/Fa was pretty one sided
- Judau was totally oblivious to women
- Seabrook/Cecily only really shone in Crossbone Gundam, not in F91
- Usso was too young
- Heero/Relena wasn't really one
- Kira/Lacus was terrible

Have I missed any other major ones?

13 episode OVA isn't bad, it's to the point, and you know there won't be any crappy filler episodes or "Zala + Friends Roadshow of the Earth" arcs which do nothing for the story (referring to Destiny here).

The Gouf Custom kicked a lot of butt, I like it, and it's cool to see a superior pilot use inferior equipment to play with his opponents all the way to the end, and win convincingly. (Gouf Custom is not as good as the 79[G] due to lack of beam weaponery and inferior most other performance stats) (Before the argument starts, Norris DID win, he fulfilled his mission by killing all three Guntanks. That he died to KO the last one so that his "adopted daughter" won't get a shishkebab'ed hubby doesn't count against him)

ZShade · Post by **ZShade** » 2006-06-15 10:09am

SylasGaunt wrote:Gundams that still aren't as good as Amuro's. After all they were made out of spare parts and they use 80% of the same parts as a Ground-type GM.

To me, it's not about 'is the RX-79[G] as good as the RX-78-2?', it's 'why the hell is there even a RX-79[G]?' Give everyone in SE Asia regular old RGM-79s. When Shiro gets his GM trashed, the repairs are done to make his GM look like a Gundam for psychological effect.

Commander 598 wrote:They've never been on top of the moral mountain. Revil was also tossing nukes around at Loum. The Feds are also responsible for putting people in space whether they wanted to or not.

And this makes Zeon with it's colony gassing and colony dropping and nuke tossing morally superior how?

Commander 598 wrote:The Federation actually sold Axis to the second Neo Zeon, despite knowing damn well what they planned to do with it...

That just proves the Federation is comprised of idiots. Char was the one who actually tried to turn Earth into a radioactive wasteland simply to spite Amuro.

Commander 598 wrote:By F91 and beyond they might as well be compared to a termite infested house as far as corruption goes. The Fed. President thought the whole CV invasion was rumor.

And the Crossbone Vanguard used their Bugs to clean out civilian populations. Berah Ronah made a good start at cleaning house, but then the Jupiter Empire pulled the rug from out under her.

Commander 598 wrote:They almost didn't participate in Victory.

And this makes them morally inferior to the Zanscare Empire, which used guillotines for public executions, was going to use Angel Halo to kill a good chunk of humanity, and had a relgious fanaticism?

Commander 598 wrote:Hell, I guess they've been the bad guy since the beginning...

Not when you compare them against most of their enemies.

Commander 598 wrote:Not to mention not being piloted by newtypes.

And yet the 08th MS didn't have anyone killed and performed very well in combat.

Commander 598 wrote:Well, Project V had better damn well've pumped out more than a single unit to counter Zeon. That and it helps to make it less super-robotish.

Project V resulted in the Guntank, Guncannon, and Gundam designs, and several of each were produced. Char's sneak attack just destroyed most of the examples at Side 7.

Dendrobius wrote:Have I missed any other major ones?

Well, there's the extremely bad love triangle between Kou, Nina, and Gato in 0083. And then you have Loran and Diana in Turn A.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 10:55am

SylasGaunt wrote:Gundams that still aren't as good as Amuro's. After all they were made out of spare parts and they use 80% of the same parts as a Ground-type GM.

What spare parts? Every goddamn file about the Ground Gundam says it's made of spare parts, even though it shares no common features with any 0079 design.

What are you kidding? The gouf custom is infinitely cooler than the original.

The Gouf Custom is too much like a cheap copy of the flare of the original Gouf. I also seriously hate GIANT GATTLING GUNS. It didn't even have the heat whip, just some stupid tow cable looking thing. Ug. "That's not a Gouf, boy! Not a Gouf!"

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2006-06-15 01:28pm

BloodAngel wrote:So, I'm watching SEED now. Other than a few laughable/odd parts, I didn't find it to be that bad as most of you said. Sure, it's no Cowboy Bebop, but it's entertaining. And this isn't the first sci-fi show to do physics-defying stuff like the fast movement of the ships/mechs. Then again, I'm up to 16, so I'll see what else there is to come.

SEED had a few good moments (although to be fair, all I've seen to compare it with is Endless Waltz and the first volume of Gundam 0800: War in the Pocket), and some of the battles were entertaining.

Still, it was a panoply of cliches; when my brother and I were watching it, we joked that you could tell that someone was a main character, simply because they had the 'bishonen' look. The other thing (I don't know if this is common or not) was that they really needed to show the Gundam suits taking some damage; the bloody things annihilate fleet after fleet without even taking a scratch.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2006-06-15 02:05pm

For love affairs, if you watch ZZ closely, there is some suggestion that Judau and Elle are shacking up and that midway through they break-up, which sets him up for trying to pursue Loux(roux, however the fuck it's spelled). Its onl implied, but if I ever watch ZZ again (grrr) I could post where it is done so.
There are in fact a lot of implied off screen relationships in UC gundam, just most of them never make it far enough to get on screen.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2006-06-15 02:32pm

[quote="Dendrobius]Have I missed any other major ones?[/quote]

Noin/Zechs?

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2006-06-15 02:43pm

What spare parts? Every goddamn file about the Ground Gundam says it's made of spare parts, even though it shares no common features with any 0079 design

First of all, AH-1Z and UH-1Y helicopters share 84% commonality in terms of parts and are very different in terms of design and use. Secondly, thats a blatently bullshit lie about them not sharing any common features with other 0079 designs.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 03:48pm

Ok, you win. It could've been done better, you must admit that. Especially if they're going for the spare parts bit. The AH-1Z and UH-1Y do have visibly similar components like the engine and tail boom.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2006-06-15 06:00pm

That image you posted is a comparison to the RX-78 which is not what the RX-79G takes the majority of its design and parts from.... As SylasGaunt said, it takes its design and parts from the RGM 79 Ground type.

Ok, you win. It could've been done better, you must admit that.

Not really, I'd say they did a fine job.

Especially if they're going for the spare parts bit. The AH-1Z and UH-1Y do have visibly similar components like the engine and tail boom.

And the RGM 79G and the RX-79G have many visibly similar components as well:

Its easy to see the similarities here, and just like the helicopters most of the parts it shares would be for its internals.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 06:12pm

Where are you getting this information that the Ground GM came out before the RX-79(G)? I don't deny that a Gundam and it's subsequent GMs share parts, but the RX-79 is said to have used parts from Operation V, not Ground GMs.

With the comparison image up, I think they could've done better. Stuff like the knee and elbows joints should have followed the Gundam and the stupid backpack should've been done away with. Same with the knee spikes and the feet should resemble the Gundam's.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2006-06-15 07:46pm

Where are you getting this information that the Ground GM came out before the RX-79(G)? I don't deny that a Gundam and it's subsequent GMs share parts, but the RX-79 is said to have used parts from Operation V, not Ground GMs.

My apologies, you are correct in that the RGM 79's came out after the RX-79's, HOWEVER, the MAHQ.net states that the RGM-79 G's used 80% of the same parts that were utilized for the RX-79Gs.

Sure the creators could have made the RX-79 more closely resemble the RX-78 visually, but I don't mind the direction they took, the spare parts were obviosly mostly the internals. The rest was fabricated for its own design.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 08:09pm

Meh, maybe they have similar internals (not that the Master Grade shows anything like that, but you may say that's a bad source...). The overall design still bugs me. Damn Space 'Nam.

Let me send a question out to the Gundam fans out there, does it bug anyone else that each new entry to the One Year War has to introduce some new Mobile Suit never seen before? I feel like a whole year of war is getting overstuffed with stuff that makes M*A*S*H's two year war in eleven seasons seem tame.

Dendrobius · Post by **Dendrobius** » 2006-06-15 08:27pm

Yes, yes and hell yes. Not to mention the absolute fucking deluge of OYW based stories over the years...

Original Gundam
08th MS Team
0080 War in the Pocket
The Blue Destiny
MS Igloo
Various MSV side stories (Shin Matsunaga, Heavy Gundam, Gundam Pixie, etc etc)
Encounters in Space (G04, G05)
Lost War Chronicles

I swear, it's like the British national obsession with WWII.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 08:37pm

I liked MSV. MSV made sense. I wouldn't complain so much if they just stuck to MSV. It's not like they've done anything big with MSV.

Ryushikaze · Post by **Ryushikaze** » 2006-06-15 08:58pm

Not all of them. I don't mind stuff like Blue Destiny (with the titular suit, which turned out to be a flop because it was not exactly controllable nor easily repeatable), or suit variants. But the 'this wildly kickass design which could have easily turned the tide, wait, where'd it go' stuff does.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2006-06-15 08:59pm

Meh, maybe they have similar internals (not that the Master Grade shows anything like that, but you may say that's a bad source...). The overall design still bugs me. Damn Space 'Nam.

Of course, toy models are just that, toy models. I guess we're just opposites in this regard, I loved the Space Nam feel of 08th MS Team. And im sorry but the Gouf Custom kicked ass.

Let me send a question out to the Gundam fans out there, does it bug anyone else that each new entry to the One Year War has to introduce some new Mobile Suit never seen before? I feel like a whole year of war is getting overstuffed with stuff that makes M*A*S*H's two year war in eleven seasons seem tame.

I don't think its that bad, considering the scope and scale of the war and the observed industrial capabilites of the powers in play, the things shown (or at least what I have seen so far) in UC Gundam seem perfectly acceptable to me. Its not like alot of these "new" mecha were mass production anyways.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 09:16pm

Space 'Nam only worked for VOTOMs. It does not work with fifty foot tall robots that mostly white or have glowing pink eyes =p

ZShade · Post by **ZShade** » 2006-06-15 09:27pm

VF5SS wrote:Let me send a question out to the Gundam fans out there, does it bug anyone else that each new entry to the One Year War has to introduce some new Mobile Suit never seen before? I feel like a whole year of war is getting overstuffed with stuff that makes M*A*S*H's two year war in eleven seasons seem tame.

God yes. One of my favorite things about Rise From the Ashes for the Dreamcast was that it didn't introduce any new Fed MS. You got GMs, GM Cannons, the Sniper II, and the Guncannon MP Type. No damn Gundams, just grunt machines.

I can kinda accept the RX-78-4, -5, and -6, since they just took them from Kunio Okawara's MS Collection and prettied them up. MSV itself was just all kinds of cool, and generally made sense.

Commander 598 · Post by **Commander 598** » 2006-06-15 09:47pm

ZShade wrote: And this makes Zeon with it's colony gassing and colony dropping and nuke tossing morally superior how?

It doesn't. But Feds aren't clean by any means.

That just proves the Federation is comprised of idiots. Char was the one who actually tried to turn Earth into a radioactive wasteland simply to spite Amuro.

But the fact that they sold it to him period brings they're morality into quesiton. They're were quite a few people in the room with a "WTF?" look on they're faces.

And the Crossbone Vanguard used their Bugs to clean out civilian populations. Berah Ronah made a good start at cleaning house, but then the Jupiter Empire pulled the rug from out under her.

The Crossbone Vanguard didn't, a faction within the Vanguard did. Most of the people on the damn ship that launched them were clueless. If i'm not mistaken they were planning on dumping them on earth.

And this makes them morally inferior to the Zanscare Empire, which used guillotines for public executions, was going to use Angel Halo to kill a good chunk of humanity, and had a relgious fanaticism?

You missed the point. The Federation allowed a massive military force to do as it pleased without so much as batting an eyelash.

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2006-06-15 09:49pm

Yeah, how about Rise from the Ashes? Despite the problems in the game, it did some things right. Great use of established Mobile Suits, nice cockpit view (all the new games are third person), and a nice exploration of the Austrailian front. No Gouf Customs either. The real issues with the game was the weak weapons (how many times did you have to reload your 100mm machine gun?), small combat zones, and general shortness. The game also had some speed issues. The Blue Destiny games for Sega Saturn were really great for their time. One of few ground based Gundam games with a sense of speed.