DS2= 160km because of trig argument

[Darth Wong]

I'll bet that a lot of TFN denizens think that we're the ban-happy forum because they cover up all their bannings in a veil of secrecy but we're open about ours. That strikes me as the sort of ultra-superficial thinking that is typical of that place.

[Vympel]

The complete elimination of my post and being replaced with a curt "banned for arguing canon" edit especially so.

Anyway, the ban is for 24 hours. Though who knows, they might extend it if they feel like it since I sent in another form as a mode of "reply". Annoying.

[Master of Ossus]

I find it mind-boggling that they can refer to us as "Saxtonian," but if we call them "Travessites" then it's baiting.

[Darth Wong]

I find it mind-boggling that they can refer to us as "Saxtonian," but if we call them "Travessites" then it's baiting.

It's not mind-boggling at all. They're just a bunch of hypocritical little shits: quite typical of the breed. They probably know they're being hypocrites and don't care. It reminds me of Axis Kast, who once commented that hypocrisy is good as long as it gets the job done.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I find it mind-boggling that they can refer to us as "Saxtonian," but if we call them "Travessites" then it's baiting.

I suppose it's their way of saying, "We hate you guys."

[Darth Wong]

I know this will sound like old hat, but it actually reminds me of creationists (not surprising since I'd bet that there are a shitload of creationists there). While their argument is explicitly based around worship and defense of a person, ours really isn't. They have to insist that we're followers of Saxton rather than followers of logic or empirical methods, in much the same manner that creationists treat evolution as a cult of Darwin worship rather than a logical conclusion.

In both cases, they throw stones from a glass house; the Traviss brigade is explicitly about defending one individual from criticism (even going so far as to make it an official policy), and the creationists are explicitly mindless worshippers of ancient dead guys.

[Master of Ossus]

I PM'ed dp4m about the apparent contradiction. I'll let his reply speak for itself, including the bit that he helpfully bolded for me.

Saxtonian, to me, is someone who believes in (like Newton) trying to use math/physics to explain what wouldn't ordinarily be explainable. Right or wrong, there's a logical basis for the calculations (at least on real-world Earth). I liken it, as I've said, to calling someone "Newtonian" or "Einsteinian" -- it's someone who believes in using a certain methodology, rather than being "a follower of" which is usually what the "-ite" suffix entails. Please note: you guys usually are (by definition) "wrong," since Saxton is non-canon in almost all aspects of the universe (except, in a Clintonian fashion, where he is canon of course!) but that doesn't make your math (or maths for your UK/AU members) incorrect based upon the assumptions you have to go on.

Calling someone a "Travissite" on the other hand, implies something akin to a cult. Especially since Karen's not advocating any methodology to follow, per se, it's just attempting to lump people who believe one thing into a group as a label, rather than attempting any real "good faith" debating on that score. I generally would also tolerate "Fandalorian" as well, on the same principle that these people are "fans of Mandalorian culture" which, again, speaks to a viewpoint and/or methodology rather than a cult of personality.

So that's pretty much how I view it. Obviously, if I see Saxtonian being used as an insult or epithet, I'll edit it, etc. But that occurs far less frequently IMO than the reverse... and if you think I've missed something, let me know about it. I'm not out to "get" people and I would like to enforce things equally, if I can.

[Darth Wong]

So "advocating a methodology" is bad, but advocating conclusions without any sign of a logical methodology is good? As I said, they remind me of creationists. Many of them probably are creationists.

PS. Traviss has a methodology too. It's just a totally illogical one.

[Mange]

Calling someone a "Travissite" on the other hand, implies something akin to a cult. Especially since Karen's not advocating any methodology to follow, per se, it's just attempting to lump people who believe one thing into a group as a label, rather than attempting any real "good faith" debating on that score. I generally would also tolerate "Fandalorian" as well, on the same principle that these people are "fans of Mandalorian culture" which, again, speaks to a viewpoint and/or methodology rather than a cult of personality.

Please, PLEASE tell me that this is a joke. Does he even realize what he says? "Especially since Karen's not advocating any methodology to follow" WTF?

"it's just attempting to lump people who believe one thing into a group as a label" What then is calling someone "Saxtonite"?

And banning Vympel for "arguing canon"? Welcome to the Twilight Zone.

[Jim Raynor]

dp4m has sunk to a new low, AGAIN. Banning people for arguing canon, which is the topic of the debate? Why not be up front about it and just admit that you're banning people who disagree with you?

I recall a Chee quote from the Holocron thread at SW.com where he said the Databank is NOT always up to date, and I would like to use this smack this asshole down. Can anyone provide a link?

[Darth Wong]

These turds truly display their hypocrisy with this argument because we know for a fact that DS2 was originally intended to be 500 miles wide. I have the book containing the source quote myself. So if you don't go with oncsreen measurements and instead go with "creators' intent", you have to say it's 500 miles wide.

The only reason to use the old 160km figure is the mindless assumption that EU cannot be wrong even though there have been numerous corrections over time in the past.

[Mange]

I recall a Chee quote from the Holocron thread at SW.com where he said the Databank is NOT always up to date, and I would like to use this smack this asshole down. Can anyone provide a link?

Jim, could it be this quote you were referring to (a reply to a question by Poe):

Executor's dimensions... When will the other spinoff literature and the Official
Site Databank show the ITW correction?

I don't know when/if the databank will be updated; that's up to the Online group. Databank entries usually don't get dynamically updated every time new information comes out.

It can be found here: +http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=9000

[Master of Ossus]

The only reason to use the old 160km figure is the mindless assumption that EU cannot be wrong even though there have been numerous corrections over time in the past.

Including the ITW book, which specifically stated it was 900km.

[Jim Raynor]

Thanks, Mange. I wonder how dp4m would react to this. Perhaps he'll try to pretend that the way the Executor update was handled isn't analogous to the Death Star? Or maybe he'll just ban me for "arguing canon?"

[Mange]

dp4m locked the thread with his unusal definition of the canon policy... I must say that this is the first time that I've really gotten pissed off by the double standards and the stupidity of that place and it's the first time I've actually gotten mad when I've discussed things related to Star Wars. Is this the future of mainstream Star Wars fandom?

[FTeik]

Now look at this and laugh:

There will be no more canon debates.
By definition, this means there will be no more size debates.

[Lonestar]

Sorry Mange, but the above is what a real veiled attack looks like...

Refering to my...

I find this to be particularly funny, as it would be taboo to make similiar veiled attacks on other VIPs.

Such a nice fellow. They really don't see the doublestandards they wave around there?

[Alan Bolte]

So, "I can't lose, so this debate never happened and you're all banned"? How old is this prick?

[Lord Poe]

That's why you have guys diagnosing themselves with Google, and then arguing with the doctor (yes, this happens; ask doctors).

Im many of those cases can't the doctor have the pharmasist give a placebo of he see no reason to administer said drug?

This was dealt with in the very first episode of "House". House accused the guy of Google-ing his diagnosis, and called it "brilliant". Then he went outside to a candy dispenser and filled a pill bottle with candy, and told the nurse to give it to the patient!

At the end of the episode, the same patient comes back and asks for his perscription to be refilled. House turns to another doctor and says, "Got a quarter?"

[Lord Poe]

We'll consider any argument about clone numbers and how "impossible" they are or their not being canon ( or SSDs or dead Ewoks) to be trolling, because of the history of abuse relating to this topic. And LFL has confirmed on these very forums that the numbers are canon. And the argument has gone on here months ago, and - like the undead/ dead Ewoks and the SSD sagas - it's a known troll zone. Therefore...raise it yet again, and see what happens. The mods will act accordingly.

And the more fuss you make, the more books you end up selling for me. I've pointed out that irony before. Your call.

I believe this was the VIP thread, right after Rostoni said the argument could continue. Anyone have the link? (Off to work again!)

EDIT: Someone PLEASE point to McEwok when he starts his bullshit on Star Dreadnoughts and 19km. Not that it will do any good, but I just love to see hypocrisy in action.

[Sunstreaker]

Unfortunately the DS outer surface sets they used for those shots were flat, so thats a no go, unless the DS is infinitely large.

If we're allowed to use out-of-context backstage info, it's been stated by the people who did the FX that DS2 was intended to have a 500 mile diameter.

I've been grappling with the question of what makes these people tick: loyalty to certain authors or precedents, scientific ignorance, etc. But I think that maybe, in the end, they're just driven by an innate hostility toward anybody who knows how to do this sort of thing and dares to apply that knowledge to Star Wars. They're like the people in high school who get angry at you if you use big words because they think you're trying to show off. And in both cases, the situation isn't helped by the presence of posers, who don't really know what they're doing but pretend they do.

Personally, it's the unwillingness and the apathy to change. To quote Peter Gibbons "I just don't care".

I read the 8km length for the Super Star Destroyer and the 160km diameter for the DSII in the early '90s. I'm fine with those numbers and I left it at that.

Of course, I don't debate these things either.

[Darth Wong]

Personally, it's the unwillingness and the apathy to change. To quote Peter Gibbons "I just don't care".

But they care enough to call jihad against people who disagree with them. That is not apathy.

[loomer]

Yeah, this is making me glad I don't even go over there anymore. The bullshit level is rising to a level where the few peaks of sanity and logic are going to be swamped eventually.

[Sunstreaker]

Personally, it's the unwillingness and the apathy to change. To quote Peter Gibbons "I just don't care".

But they care enough to call jihad against people who disagree with them. That is not apathy.

I wish I could answer your question from their perspective.

to hazard a guess:

They don't want to change, they care, and they believe they are correct to a fault. It's like a religion to them or some kind of obsession.

[Vympel]

As I suspected, dp4m somehow got it into his head that the Databank must be updated for a source to somehow be "validated". That's prima facie absurd, and someone should post that Leland Chee quote in a new thread, because this is the first time I've heard such a ridiculous concept.