Meddling - The Prime Directive, what'd you replace it with?

[NecronLord]

It's a common theme in Sci-fi. How civilisations of different technology levels should interact with one another. I'm sure everyone's familiar with Star Trek's many episodes along these lines (not only the Prime Directive, but the likes of the preservers), not to mention most of the Culture books and other such things dealing with similar themes.

So, what do SDNers think is the best way for an advanced and moralistic space-travelling civilisation to interact with less advanced species?

[Stark]

I don't think 'ignore them' is really the best option, and indeed I think it's motivated by moral cowardice more than anything else. Freespace said it best: whoever reaches FTL first owns all over everyone else, until they find someone who is already similar or better. Uplifting is as far as I can tell a sociology experiment more than anything else, and the idea that you would go to massive effort to isolate a planet from space - something NOBODY EVER DID FOR US - to 'preserve' them in their 'natural' state is stupid. If we were in the ST galaxy, for instance, we'd be picking up all kinds of shit from planets relatively close by that've had retardo tech for hundreds or thousands of years.

[NecronLord]

Well, I was thinking more of something to the effect of the Cultureverse or any other relatively soft Sci-fi (to make it actually economically possible to go and interact with aliens without multi-year delays, rather than ST particularly.

So, how'd you go about 'improving' conditions for aliens then? Turn up and say 'hi' or Culturesque subtlety?

[Cao Cao]

I think the Prime Directive as Star Trek sees it is fine up to a point.
I'd go with something along the lines of what is seen in Star Ocean called the UP3, Undeveloped Planet Protection Pact. Which is essentially a parody of Star Trek's Prime Directive along with everything else in that game.
But, from what is described about it, it only covers non-interference in primitive, pre-industrial planets. Once a planetary society reaches a 20th century level of tech their status is upgraded and contact can be made.

I think something along those lines would be best; it'd be a futile waste of resources to contact and uplift, say, a medieval society and could really screw them up as a whole. Whereas a civilization who understands the basics of tech, science, has radios which may pick up stray signals and mass media to spread the word of first contact would handle it better IMO.

[Stofsk]

I like Traveller's take on the matter:

"Prime Directive? The hell is that? We're goddamn free traders, not Scouts."

[Prozac the Robert]

This isn't really that serious, but it amuses me: wait untill science fiction becomes popular and then make contact. After all, that shows that they are capable of dealing with the idea of ETs.

[Batman]

This isn't really that serious, but it amuses me: wait untill science fiction becomes popular and then make contact. After all, that shows that they are capable of dealing with the idea of ETs.

No, they're capable of conceiving of ETs. I'm not sure how many people today would be able to deal with there actually being one. Of course I don't know they're not, either.
I think a good point to get involved when they actually start looking for extraplanetary life. Radio telescopes, space probes with messages for eventual recipient, projects like SETI, that kind of stuff. They're looking for you (or someone at any rate), they ought to be prepared for at least limited contact. Let's have them have it.
And none of that 'sorry, we know they're going to be destroyed but so sorry. Prime directive' crap from TNG. Sure, if we can save them without giving away our presence great. Culture shock people have a chance to get over with. Extinction tends to be permanent.

[The Vodka Vindicator]

This isn't really that serious, but it amuses me: wait untill science fiction becomes popular and then make contact. After all, that shows that they are capable of dealing with the idea of ETs.

I suppose that could work..

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This isn't really that serious, but it amuses me: wait untill science fiction becomes popular and then make contact. After all, that shows that they are capable of dealing with the idea of ETs.

I suppose that could work..

Not really. Science fiction is very popular right now, but how many of the people in, say, the United States would really be ready to have an alien starship appear in orbit one day without immediately thinking that the Rapture is about to be upon them with Armageddeon close behind?

I would suggest that, for most of a planet's history, you leave them alone. Reforming a currently occupied planet for your purposes is much harder than, say, claiming a planet just as single-celled life-forms have finished transforming the atmosphere into something you can breathe. And, for 99.99% of an intelligent species' history, they won't be capable of producing anything that would be remotely valuable to an interstellar civilization. You mark the planet on your maps as something to send survey teams past every few centuries (unless you have neighbors whose idea of fun is to raze entire planets for their resources, regardless of their present state of inhabitancy, or they engage in this "uplifting" or "free trade" crap that might turn a planet full of unpredictable primitives into a thorn in your side,) but otherwise you steer clear of it.

You might start watching them a little closer when your survey vessels note that the planet has started producing the odd gamma-ray flash that is telltale of a nuclear detonation. You definitely sit up and take notice when they start expanding past their low planetary orbit. They'll have telescopes that might spot your survey ships, and you might make it a point to fly your survey ships a little closer to their system. You're not going to actually talk to these primitives . . . you just want to let them know that they're not alone.

When you do formally announce yourself is when they begin expanding outside their own system. You might follow their starships as they lumber their way to new starsystems. Or, if you're suitably inclined, you blow up the ships and bottle the species up in its own starsystem for a few more decades. Otherwise, you might wait for them to found a couple of colonies and demonstrate that they're not unpredictable savages. Then you show up to tell them their place in the galactic neighborhood.

[Base Delta Zero]

In my stories, the United Star Federation, the 'protagonists' if you will, generally handles matters in rather direct way. They will contact industrialized, relatively civilized planets openly, and trade with them. Many of these planets become Federation protectorates until their own civilization is advanced enough to become full Federation members. Of course, if some starts actually trying to contact them, they'll respond immediately, lest someone else does. In worlds that are perhaps less technologically advanced but not mired in insanity, individuals might be contacted, though the civilization as a whole will not be contacted directly.

Less civilized worlds, like those with a midieval mindset, are generally monitored and discreetly 'helped' to stop having a midieval mindset. If such a world does something that seriously upsets the Federation, like, say, start killing off most of it's own people for some inane reason, then they might just take it upon themselves to see to it that the oppressors 'disappear'. If they try to actually attack the Federation, the USF will point out the futility of this action with a replicannon bombardment from orbit, which, while not actually hurting anyone, generally gets the point across . At that point the world is either quarantined, or if it is not (most likely), they have little choice but to surrender.

Of course, it helps that in my stories there are only a few species, all of which are quite similar, and most of which have had contact with each other via the Path of Stars (think stargate) in the distant past, and thus references to creatures like extraterristrials will exist in their mythology. Also, if the USF doesn't interfere, someone else just might, and their methods are rather less subtle, or positive.

[Dahak]

I'd say, for most of it the Prime Directive, or at least its core thought, is a good and valid one.
But sometimes, I think the more advanced species has a moral obligation to help when the less advanced one faces extinction events, say in event of a disaster that's about to kill the planet or a deadly plague. If they can help, it would be morally bancrupt to say "we have that Directive that says we shouldn't help".
But blundering in and just announce oneself could be equally disruptive to society. So a subtle approach, maybe like the Culture, would be the best of both worlds.

[xammer99]

It really depends on the nature of the universe. Specifically, are planets that can easily support terrestrial life common?

If such planets are uncommon/rare, then slag'em early. Today's cute cuddly new friend is tomorrows real and dangerous competition for planets and resources.

If such planets are common then it depends on the type of species they are:

a. Aggressive: Slag'em.

b. Non violent but with concepts of it: Study'em and if it looks like they could potentially turn aggressive, then bottle'em up in their own system. Otherwise welcome'em with open arms.

c. Non violent & w/o concepts of violence: Study them thoroughly. If they are as harmless as they appear, welcome them with open arms. If not, bottle'em up or slag as need be.

d. Never ever ever ever ever initiate contact with a new species without at least 20 years of studying it in depth. Totally hands off till then.

Yeah, that's a tad harsh, but if you can strangle some asshole perditor species in the craddle then all the better. Saves you from getting rocks dropped on your planets later.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I'd say, for most of it the Prime Directive, or at least its core thought, is a good and valid one.
But sometimes, I think the more advanced species has a moral obligation to help when the less advanced one faces extinction events, say in event of a disaster that's about to kill the planet or a deadly plague. If they can help, it would be morally bancrupt to say "we have that Directive that says we shouldn't help".
But blundering in and just announce oneself could be equally disruptive to society. So a subtle approach, maybe like the Culture, would be the best of both worlds.

What moral obligation does an alien species have to help an alien species whose loss will have approximately zero effect on the galaxy at large? We have a moral obligation to preserve the biodiversity on Earth because Earth's biodiversity directly affects our quality of life, and the long-term habitability of our planet. We might have a moral obligation to preserve various cultures on our own planet from dying out, or to prevent the extermination of ethnic groups. However, these other people are humans as well. These sorts of moral guideposts become meaningless when you start talking about the six-eyed, furry, spear-wielding natives of Zebulon IV, whose system lies 10,543 light-years from Earth. If Zebulon IV gets smashed by a KT-level asteroid tomorrow, it won't have any significant bearing on the politics of the galaxy at large. Well, it might, in a million years when the six-eyed spear-wielding furry natives would've otherwise become four-eyed blaster-wielding furry mercenaries. It won't have any effect on the survivability of our own worlds. To the sufficiently ruthless, it might actually open Zebulon IV up for redevelopment (assuming we had no neighbors who would object to this practice, that is.)

In short, there isn't any practical reason, apart from racial sensitivities to that end, to take such an interventionist stance.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

It really depends on the nature of the universe. Specifically, are planets that can easily support terrestrial life common?

If such planets are uncommon/rare, then slag'em early. Today's cute cuddly new friend is tomorrows real and dangerous competition for planets and resources.

There's no point to it. "Uncommon" in a galaxy with 400 billion stars would still likely yield tens of millions of potentially habitable worlds that would take less trouble to render habitable than smashing some poor sapient who's unlikely to share enough of your biochemistry to feasibly compete against you anyway.

If such planets are common then it depends on the type of species they are:

a. Aggressive: Slag'em.

Why? Overtly aggressive species will probably neutralize themselves with no help from you whatsoever. They'll probably do it centuries before they could ever feasibly build starships.

b. Non violent but with concepts of it: Study'em and if it looks like they could potentially turn aggressive, then bottle'em up in their own system. Otherwise welcome'em with open arms.

The extremely high costs of developing interplanetary infrastructure will serve to beat down any excessively aggressive tendencies a species will have. This is why you don't even deign talk to them until after they've successfully established their first few interstellar colonies. By then, they'll have learned enough about playing nice to be able to afford the investment of resources and manpower needed to take those first steps.

[Prozac the Robert]

What moral obligation does an alien species have to help an alien species whose loss will have approximately zero effect on the galaxy at large? We have a moral obligation to preserve the biodiversity on Earth because Earth's biodiversity directly affects our quality of life, and the long-term habitability of our planet. We might have a moral obligation to preserve various cultures on our own planet from dying out, or to prevent the extermination of ethnic groups. However, these other people are humans as well. These sorts of moral guideposts become meaningless when you start talking about the six-eyed, furry, spear-wielding natives of Zebulon IV, whose system lies 10,543 light-years from Earth. If Zebulon IV gets smashed by a KT-level asteroid tomorrow, it won't have any significant bearing on the politics of the galaxy at large. Well, it might, in a million years when the six-eyed spear-wielding furry natives would've otherwise become four-eyed blaster-wielding furry mercenaries. It won't have any effect on the survivability of our own worlds. To the sufficiently ruthless, it might actually open Zebulon IV up for redevelopment (assuming we had no neighbors who would object to this practice, that is.)

In short, there isn't any practical reason, apart from racial sensitivities to that end, to take such an interventionist stance.

There is a bit of a difference between practical and moral. It's possible to be morally compelled to do something that will not benefit you at all.

Preventing cruelty to animals is one such thing in real life. It costs money to prosecute someone who has abused their pets, and the well being of their pets has no practical effect on the rest of world affairs so we shouldn't bother?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

There is a bit of a difference between practical and moral. It's possible to be morally compelled to do something that will not benefit you at all.

Preventing cruelty to animals is one such thing in real life. It costs money to prosecute someone who has abused their pets, and the well being of their pets has no practical effect on the rest of world affairs so we shouldn't bother?

We can sympathize with other people's pets, having grown up around dogs and cats being pets. And our pets are accepted as being totally reliant on us for food, shelter, and care. As they are dependent on us, and as we've made them that way through aggressive selective-breeding and domestication, it behooves us to protect them. On the other hand, you're not likely to keep a sentient methane-breathing fungal mat from a Titan-like world as a pet, and they're certainly not dependent on you for shelter, protection, and food.

[SirNitram]

In my writings, the Enclave preserves and assists all Human or Near-Human life is discovers, through first covert operatives sent to live among them, then a very public introduction in the form of a ship entering orbit and broadcasting it's existance. This will even happen to relatively primitive societies. They'll do the same for Nonhuman life if it appears they can convince them to be good citizens(Again, through covert infiltration).

Mind you, this is influenced by the nature of the galaxy I'm writing in. Someone's gonna find you, then you'll be slaves, cannon fodder, or lunch.

[Base Delta Zero]

We can sympathize with other people's pets, having grown up around dogs and cats being pets. And our pets are accepted as being totally reliant on us for food, shelter, and care. As they are dependent on us, and as we've made them that way through aggressive selective-breeding and domestication, it behooves us to protect them. On the other hand, you're not likely to keep a sentient methane-breathing fungal mat from a Titan-like world as a pet, and they're certainly not dependent on you for shelter, protection, and food.

Oh brother, not the "they're not cute, so they don't matter" stance again...

In my writings, the Enclave preserves and assists all Human or Near-Human life is discovers, through first covert operatives sent to live among them, then a very public introduction in the form of a ship entering orbit and broadcasting it's existance. This will even happen to relatively primitive societies. They'll do the same for Nonhuman life if it appears they can convince them to be good citizens(Again, through covert infiltration).

Mind you, this is influenced by the nature of the galaxy I'm writing in. Someone's gonna find you, then you'll be slaves, cannon fodder, or lunch.

Yeah, that's something like my stories (I can't say my galaxy, because it's actually several). One of the Federation's 'neighbors' is basically a wannabe Imperium of Man, and just letting them run rampant is a definitive Bad Thing (TM) and there's always the possibility of some random trader deciding he'll swap some junk for a half a planet if you don't take some action. The Federation will send down first-contact teams to 'prepare' a planet for exposure to the outside world. Of course, if they actually go looking for outside life, Federation ships will most likely reply.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

We can sympathize with other people's pets, having grown up around dogs and cats being pets. And our pets are accepted as being totally reliant on us for food, shelter, and care. As they are dependent on us, and as we've made them that way through aggressive selective-breeding and domestication, it behooves us to protect them. On the other hand, you're not likely to keep a sentient methane-breathing fungal mat from a Titan-like world as a pet, and they're certainly not dependent on you for shelter, protection, and food.

Oh brother, not the "they're not cute, so they don't matter" stance again...

Hi. Nice misrepresentation of my point, jackass. My point was, we've domesticated our pets and have made them reliant on us. Certainly much moreso than they used to be. Thus, we have a responsibility to protect them. Their "cuteness" has zero to do with it. On the other hand, we don't have a tangible responsibility to protect an utterly alien biosphere on a completely different planet. Especially one too primitive to interact meaningfully with us.

Now that isn't saying that folks won't dream up intangible reasons to save the six-eyed, furry, spear-wielding natives of Zebulon IV. Unfortunately, in this galaxy alone there's probably several million other species which are similarly primitive, and in the time you took to deflect the asteroid headed for Zebulon IV, a minimum of several hundred other nascent civilizations that you hadn't gotten around to charting yet, may well have been wiped out in a myriad of different ways, some of which were identical to the misfortunate happenstance which would've befallen Zebulon IV.

Not to mention that, unless interstellar travel becomes ridiculously fast and cheap, the opportunity cost for saving a planet of primitves may be significantly higher than helping, say, the Xityphonian Empire, with whom you've had a century of relations, or developing another antimatter factory about Rigel so you can have more fuel for your starships.

[Enigma]

I'd say leave them alone until they start space exploration, then introduce ourselves to them. Also I wouldn't mind years of covert operations to insure that the targeted species is ready.

[Prozac the Robert]

My point was, we've domesticated our pets and have made them reliant on us. Certainly much moreso than they used to be. Thus, we have a responsibility to protect them. Their "cuteness" has zero to do with it. On the other hand, we don't have a tangible responsibility to protect an utterly alien biosphere on a completely different planet. Especially one too primitive to interact meaningfully with us.

What if someone was following a great white shark around in a big submarine and occasionally electrocuting it? It wouldn't be domesticated in any way, but it would still be animal cruelty and I would argue it ought to be stopped.

Now that isn't saying that folks won't dream up intangible reasons to save the six-eyed, furry, spear-wielding natives of Zebulon IV. Unfortunately, in this galaxy alone there's probably several million other species which are similarly primitive, and in the time you took to deflect the asteroid headed for Zebulon IV, a minimum of several hundred other nascent civilizations that you hadn't gotten around to charting yet, may well have been wiped out in a myriad of different ways, some of which were identical to the misfortunate happenstance which would've befallen Zebulon IV.

Not to mention that, unless interstellar travel becomes ridiculously fast and cheap, the opportunity cost for saving a planet of primitves may be significantly higher than helping, say, the Xityphonian Empire, with whom you've had a century of relations, or developing another antimatter factory about Rigel so you can have more fuel for your starships.

We shouldn't do anything because they might be something better we could be doing isn't a great moral argument. Sure we might have to choose between saving planet X or species Y at some point, but that's hardly a good reason to let them both die. And the OP clearly presumes that you have the resources to do this sort of stuff.

[Base Delta Zero]

Hi. Nice misrepresentation of my point, jackass. My point was, we've domesticated our pets and have made them reliant on us. Certainly much moreso than they used to be. Thus, we have a responsibility to protect them. Their "cuteness" has zero to do with it. On the other hand, we don't have a tangible responsibility to protect an utterly alien biosphere on a completely different planet. Especially one too primitive to interact meaningfully with us.

Ah. I misinterpreted what you were saying. However, one does have a responsibility to protect all (non-evil) sentient life. Your assesment that there isn't any practical reason to so is correct. Of course, there's no practical reason not to simply enslave or destroy everything you come across... aside from racial sensitivities to that end.

Now that isn't saying that folks won't dream up intangible reasons to save the six-eyed, furry, spear-wielding natives of Zebulon IV. Unfortunately, in this galaxy alone there's probably several million other species which are similarly primitive, and in the time you took to deflect the asteroid headed for Zebulon IV, a minimum of several hundred other nascent civilizations that you hadn't gotten around to charting yet, may well have been wiped out in a myriad of different ways, some of which were identical to the misfortunate happenstance which would've befallen Zebulon IV.

If you don't know there's a problem, you can't do much about it, can you? And of course, seeing as how we are talking about soft sci-fi, in lots of universes, including mine, Star Wars, sometimes Star Trek, deflecting the asteroid would take about as long as it does to charge a weapons battery (i.e., about a second).

[DesertFly]

You people disappoint me! Where's the imperialism? Where's the manifest destiny? If I was in charge of an interplanetry civilization, and a primitive species was discovered, they would fall into one of three categories:

• No Value
  These species have nothing they can contribute to our empire. We'll ignore them, for the time being.

• Valuable
  These species either have some sort of value intrinsically (i.e., they're especially good as warriors, or engineers, or navigators, etc.), their planet is in a prime position for a base or an outpost, their planet has useful minerals that we need, their species is numerous and would make usefull cannon fodder, etc. Appropriate steps will be taken to take what we need.

• Threatening
  This species is or could grow to be a threat at some future time. Extermination is recommended.

[NecronLord]

Where's the imperialism?

I said moralistic, not self centered and evil.

[SirNitram]

You people disappoint me! Where's the imperialism?

Counteproductive in civilizations of this calibur. Materials can be gained from dead systems more easily, slavery is rather pointless, and the resources expended would not equal that gained.