The Sicilian is a Moron

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The Sicilian is a Moron

Post by Surlethe »

William Goldman wrote: VIZZINI
Let me put it this way: have you
ever heard of Plato, Aristotle,
Socrates?

MAN IN BLACK
Yes.

VIZZINI
Morons.

...

MAN IN BLACK
All right: where is the poison?
The battle of wits has begun. It
ends when you decide and we both
drink, and find out who is right
and who is dead.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


VIZZINI
But it's so simple. All I have to
do is divine from what I know of
you. Are you the sort of man who
would put the poison into his own
goblet, or his enemy's?

He studies the Man In Black now.

VIZZINI
Now, a clever man would put the
poison into his own goblet,
because he would know that only a
great fool would reach for what
he was given. I'm not a great
fool, so I can clearly not choose
the wine in front of you. But you
must have known I was not a great
fool; you would have counted on
it, so I can clearly not choose
the wine in front of me.

MAN IN BLACK
(And now there's a
trace of nervousness beginning)
You've made your decision then7

VIZZINI
Not remotely. Because iocane
comes from Australia, as everyone
knows. And Australia is entirely
peopled with criminals. And
criminals are used to having
people not trust them, as you are
not trusted by me. So I can
clearly not choose the wine in
front of you.

MAN IN BLACK
Truly, you have a dizzying
intellect.

VIZZINI
Wait till I get going! Where was I?

MAN IN BLACK
Australia.

VIZZINI
Yes -- Australia, and you must
have suspected I would have known
the powder's origin, so I can
clearly not choose the wine in
front of me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAN IN BLACK
(very nervous)
You're just stalling now.

VIZZINI
(cackling)
You'd like to think that, wouldn't
you?
(stares at the Man in Black)
You've beaten my giant, which
means you're exceptionally strong.
So, you could have put the poison
in your own goblet, trusting on
your strength to save you. So I
can clearly not choose the wine
in front of you. But, you've also
bested my Spaniard which means
you must have studied. And in
studying, you must have learned
that man is mortal so you would
have put the poison as far from
yourself as possible, so I can
clearly not choose the wine in
front of me.

As Vizzini's pleasure has been growing throughout, the Man
In Black's has been fast disappearing.

MAN IN BLACK
You're trying to trick me into
giving away something -- it won't
work --

VIZZINI
(triumphant)
It has worked -- you've given
everything away -- I know where
the poison is.

MAN IN BLACK
(fool's courage)
Then make your choice.

VIZZINI
I will. And I choose --

And suddenly he stops, points at something behind the Man In
Black.

VIZZINI
-- what in the world can that be?
...

VIZZINI

watching him.

VIZZINI
You fell victim to one of the
classic blunders. The most famous
is "Never get involved in a land
war in Asia." But only slightly
less well known is this: "Never
go in against a Sicilian when
death is on the line."

He laughs and roars and cackles and whoops and is in all
ways quite cheery until he falls over dead.
Okay; he wound up dead. Obviously, he guessed wrong. However, to my way of thinking, here's Vizzini's reasoning in a nutshell:

(Either one cup or the other is poisoned.) Because he beat the Spaniard, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of him; because he beat the Turk, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of me. Therefore, we have reached a contradiction.

At this point (assuming, for an instant, that his logic regarding placement of the cup is correct), shouldn't he have realized that the contradiction means that one of his premises is incorrect, and deduced that either both cups were poisoned or neither cup was poisoned?
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Post by Molyneux »

The Sicilian's failing was that he started with the assumption that only one of the cups *could* be poisoned. Intelligence does not equal creativity.

He didn't *really* think that his premises were false; he was just working around to figuring out which cup had been poisoned (and, he assumed, which had not.)
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Post by neoolong »

Actually, he's still a moron. He should have used a poison that he was immune to.
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Post by Admiral Johnason »

He should have poured his out with the guy's back turned and faked drinking something.
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Post by neoolong »

Admiral Johnason wrote:He should have poured his out with the guy's back turned and faked drinking something.
Wouldn't the other guy have been able to see into the cup and see there was nothing in there?
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Post by Admiral Johnason »

neoolong wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:He should have poured his out with the guy's back turned and faked drinking something.
Wouldn't the other guy have been able to see into the cup and see there was nothing in there?
He could have refilled it. There was a bottle of wine there.
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Post by Coalition »

His hidden assumption was that the poison is deadly to both of them. This made him think that one goblet would not have poison in it.

One way to have made it fair, would have been for the Sicilian and the MIB to have mixed their poisons in one glass, then have the princes rearrange the goblets. Neither of them would know which goblet had the poison, and only one goblet would have contained poison.

Unless the princess decided to go with "None of the above" and poison both glasses.
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Post by SylasGaunt »

Ah but it was the game of wits that lured him in. Just having buttercup to the poisoning wouldn't have had the same challenge.
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Post by Admiral Valdemar »

I can only ever consider it was a failure in his initial assumption that the poison would only be in the one cup, and that the MIB wouldn't have already become immune to such a compound. Had Vizzini taken that into account, he likely would have deduced that there's a distinct probability of both cups being spiked, and probably would have called off the challenge, at least showing that he outsmarted the MIB, but not actually killing him.
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Re: The Sicilian is a Moron

Post by Turin »

Surlethe wrote:Okay; he wound up dead. Obviously, he guessed wrong. However, to my way of thinking, here's Vizzini's reasoning in a nutshell:

(Either one cup or the other is poisoned.) Because he beat the Spaniard, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of him; because he beat the Turk, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of me. Therefore, we have reached a contradiction.
The thing I never got is that obviously Vizzini thinks he's resolved this contradiction -- otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to switch the glasses while the Man in Black's back was turned. It's not directly revealed how Vizzini resolves the contradiction, and I've never been able to follow his line of reasoning any further than the contradiction (at which point he switches the glasses).
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Re: The Sicilian is a Moron

Post by Molyneux »

Turin wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Okay; he wound up dead. Obviously, he guessed wrong. However, to my way of thinking, here's Vizzini's reasoning in a nutshell:

(Either one cup or the other is poisoned.) Because he beat the Spaniard, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of him; because he beat the Turk, it clearly cannot be the cup in front of me. Therefore, we have reached a contradiction.
The thing I never got is that obviously Vizzini thinks he's resolved this contradiction -- otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to switch the glasses while the Man in Black's back was turned. It's not directly revealed how Vizzini resolves the contradiction, and I've never been able to follow his line of reasoning any further than the contradiction (at which point he switches the glasses).
I always assumed that he managed to get Wesley to give a very subtle 'tell' - or thought that he had.

Tossing out the drinks would have been cheating; in effect, accepting that the Man in Black was smarter than him. This he could not do, I think.

Switching the glasses was technically within the rules of the duel; it's debatable whether he switched them to better gloat over the MiB when they drank, or whether he was worried that if he chose correctly the MiB would refuse to drink, or quite probably both.
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Post by drachefly »

I figured that he figured that if he switched the glasses, then one of two things would occur:

1) his initial pick would be unpoisoned. In this case, the MiB would think he had taken the poisoned cup, see no problem, and let him go ahead.

2) his initial pick would be poisoned. In this case, the MiB would think he had left the unpoisoned cup to the MiB, and try to back out somehow. If this occurred, Vizzini should allow him to do so.

Due to Westley's tactic, the appearance of the first outcome was gauranteed.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Its much clearer when you watch the film. As Vizzini takes his cup, he pauses to see if the MIB drinks from his and that reassures Vizzini that he has the unpoisoned wine. Vizzini never thinks for a second that both were poisoned as was the case. Vizzini's whole tactic was to confuse the MIB and switch glasses when he had his back turned. Vizzini thought that if the MIB hesitated in drinking it would tell Vizzini that the MIB thought he had the poisoned cup and when that happened, Vizzini would probably say, "I've changed my mind" and exchange cups.
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Post by Turin »

Darth Servo wrote:Its much clearer when you watch the film. As Vizzini takes his cup, he pauses to see if the MIB drinks from his and that reassures Vizzini that he has the unpoisoned wine. Vizzini never thinks for a second that both were poisoned as was the case. Vizzini's whole tactic was to confuse the MIB and switch glasses when he had his back turned. Vizzini thought that if the MIB hesitated in drinking it would tell Vizzini that the MIB thought he had the poisoned cup and when that happened, Vizzini would probably say, "I've changed my mind" and exchange cups.
Hm, I'm going to have to watch it again tonight (why not, I love it anyway). I seem to remember both of them kind of start-stop-start-stop-ing their drinks (for dramatic flair, no doubt). But I've been wrong before.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Molyneux wrote:The Sicilian's failing was that he started with the assumption that only one of the cups *could* be poisoned. Intelligence does not equal creativity.
No, the Sicilian's failing was in agreeing to this life-or-death "game of wits" in the first place, especially when his opponent gets to set the rules.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I find Servo's explanation to be pretty good. He waits and looks for his reaction.
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Post by Molyneux »

Darth Wong wrote:
Molyneux wrote:The Sicilian's failing was that he started with the assumption that only one of the cups *could* be poisoned. Intelligence does not equal creativity.
No, the Sicilian's failing was in agreeing to this life-or-death "game of wits" in the first place, especially when his opponent gets to set the rules.
I have to agree with Servo's assessment...and Wong's as well.

Then again, the character was extremely proud of his intelligence...and Westley challenged that pride with the game of wits in the first place. For a Sicilian, can you really expect him to have not taken up the gauntlet?
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Post by Turin »

Molyneux wrote:Then again, the character was extremely proud of his intelligence...and Westley challenged that pride with the game of wits in the first place. For a Sicilian, can you really expect him to have not taken up the gauntlet?
Not to mention, the Sicilian pretty much "started it" with the MiB with regards to intelligence. It was Vizzini who said "I'm no match for you physically, and you're no match for my brain." (or something to that effect)

As bad a move as Vizzini made in getting involved in the battle of wits, it was probably his best available move -- he couldn't hope to flee from the Man in Black, and if he simply stalled he would eventually be caught by the Prince Humperdink. He could kill the Princess right there and then, but he would never get away from the Man in Black afterwards.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Turin wrote:
Molyneux wrote:Then again, the character was extremely proud of his intelligence...and Westley challenged that pride with the game of wits in the first place. For a Sicilian, can you really expect him to have not taken up the gauntlet?
Not to mention, the Sicilian pretty much "started it" with the MiB with regards to intelligence. It was Vizzini who said "I'm no match for you physically, and you're no match for my brain." (or something to that effect)

As bad a move as Vizzini made in getting involved in the battle of wits, it was probably his best available move -- he couldn't hope to flee from the Man in Black, and if he simply stalled he would eventually be caught by the Prince Humperdink. He could kill the Princess right there and then, but he would never get away from the Man in Black afterwards.
You're not being imaginative enough.

His money-generating ransom scheme was already fucked, but he could have saved his own skin by maneuvering her to the edge of the hill and pushing her over. Wesley would then have to choose between rescuing her and chasing the Sicilian.
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Post by Civil War Man »

Darth Wong wrote:His money-generating ransom scheme was already fucked, but he could have saved his own skin by maneuvering her to the edge of the hill and pushing her over. Wesley would then have to choose between rescuing her and chasing the Sicilian.
He probably felt more confident in facing his antagonist at that moment and, he presumed, using his intellect to get rid of him. Arrogant? Yes. Unsuccessful? Of course. But no doubt the possibility was preferable to the surety of having to spend the rest of his life being hunted by the Man in Black.

Besides, it's apparent they were not quite in Guilder yet, since he could have offed her at any point within the borders and fulfilled the conditions of his deal. So if he just shoved her off a cliff and ran, he gets nothing out of it but being hunted.
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Post by Turin »

Turin wrote:Hm, I'm going to have to watch it again tonight (why not, I love it anyway). I seem to remember both of them kind of start-stop-start-stop-ing their drinks (for dramatic flair, no doubt). But I've been wrong before.
Just watched the scene again. Not only does Vizzini not wait until Wesley has drank his glass, but his actually look down away from Wesley as soon as the cup touches the Man in Black's lips. Obviously he really thought he'd won.
Darth Wong wrote:You're not being imaginative enough.

His money-generating ransom scheme was already fucked, but he could have saved his own skin by maneuvering her to the edge of the hill and pushing her over. Wesley would then have to choose between rescuing her and chasing the Sicilian.
Fair enough. For some reason I didn't think the big hill that they fall down later was also in this scene, but it's there in the background when I just watched it. Of course, for all we're saying Vizzini was a moron, the Man in Black fell for "And I choose -- what in the world can that be!?" :wink:
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

For the record, there's no mention of either of them hesitating to drink in the book.
S. Morgenstern wrote:And he picked up his own wine goblet.

The man in black picked up the one in front of him.

They drank.
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Post by Darth Servo »

Turin wrote:As bad a move as Vizzini made in getting involved in the battle of wits, it was probably his best available move -- he couldn't hope to flee from the Man in Black, and if he simply stalled he would eventually be caught by the Prince Humperdink. He could kill the Princess right there and then, but he would never get away from the Man in Black afterwards.
Why would he fear Prince Humperdink when it was the Prince who hired him in the first place?
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Darth Servo wrote:
Turin wrote:As bad a move as Vizzini made in getting involved in the battle of wits, it was probably his best available move -- he couldn't hope to flee from the Man in Black, and if he simply stalled he would eventually be caught by the Prince Humperdink. He could kill the Princess right there and then, but he would never get away from the Man in Black afterwards.
Why would he fear Prince Humperdink when it was the Prince who hired him in the first place?
Because he knew that the Prince was smart enough to know a loose end when he saw one?
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Post by drachefly »

Drooling Iguana wrote:For the record, there's no mention of either of them hesitating to drink in the book.
S. Morgenstern wrote:And he picked up his own wine goblet.

The man in black picked up the one in front of him.

They drank.
Uh, you do realize that S. Morgenstern is a fictional character, right?

Anyway, it doesn't really torpedo the idea, since the second sentence gives plenty of time for a 'read'.
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