Prayer doesn't help heart patients

[Spoonist]

Another research about prayer not having any effect on patients.
Instead it turned out that knowing that people prayed for you could increase the rate of complications, probably due to stress.

linky

Even though I understand why they are doing this research I'm still frustrated that so much resources are being spent on proving things which should be obvious to everyone.

[Spoonist]

BACKGROUND: Intercessory prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, but claims of benefits are not supported by well-controlled clinical trials. Prior studies have not addressed whether prayer itself or knowledge/certainty that prayer is being provided may influence outcome. We evaluated whether (1) receiving intercessory prayer or (2) being certain of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with uncomplicated recovery after coronary artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. METHODS: Patients at 6 US hospitals were randomly assigned to 1 of 3 groups: 604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer also after being informed that they may or may not receive prayer; and 601 received intercessory prayer after being informed they would receive prayer. Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before CABG. The primary outcome was presence of any complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event and mortality. RESULTS: In the 2 groups uncertain about receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not (relative risk 1.02, 95% CI 0.92-1.15). Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory prayer (relative risk 1.14, 95% CI 1.02-1.28 ) Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the 3 groups. CONCLUSIONS: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

[Jadetear]

Even though I understand why they are doing this research I'm still frustrated that so much resources are being spent on proving things which should be obvious to everyone.

What would these people work on then?

[Talanth]

Even though I understand why they are doing this research I'm still frustrated that so much resources are being spent on proving things which should be obvious to everyone.

Unfortunatly if they don't do the reaserch all the fundies would do is kick up a fuss about how they are being marginalised by the scientific comunity, and then try to use their own oh so brillient experements to prouve that not only does prayer work but the fact that it works is proufe of the existance of god.

I think I even once heared of a chirch trying to do that once. I wish I could remember where I heared it from now.

[Lagmonster]

Even though I understand why they are doing this research I'm still frustrated that so much resources are being spent on proving things which should be obvious to everyone.

On the contrary, it is very good that they do these tests to show that it is bullshit. A huge percentage of the population believes that prayer, natural and spiritual new age healing, and other gibberish actually helps them heal from illness, meaning that there is a percentage of the population who are suffering and dying because of ignorance.

When it comes to medicine, it is important as fuck to grab the ineffective fringe and drag it under the spotlight of scientific scrutiny, and to publish the results loudly and widely so that no doubt can be left that it is a fool's choice.

[Pezzoni]

The problem with studies like these is that they invariably show that prayer doesn't help. This doesn't deter your average fundie moron, because they are fee to put their fingers in their ears and scream 'DON'T TEST GAWD!1'.

Of course, when said fundie morons then run their scientifically dubious studies (so I've heard: I havn't personally seen the results from any), and they in turn show that prayer does help (due to poor experimentation, or fiddling of results, due to their vested interest in the resuts of the study one must assume), they then will shout from the rooftops about how they have proved the existance of god.

When you encounter that level of hypocrisy and stupidity, there really isn't any way to win, aside from feeling smug and self satisfied, and holding the knowledge that said fundies are fucking idiots.

[Pezzoni]

Sorry, badly worded first sentance. It should read:

Studies like these invariably show that prayer doesn't help. The problem with this is that it doesn't deter your average fundie moron, because they are fee to put their fingers in their ears and scream 'DON'T TEST GAWD!1'.

[Darth RyanKCR]

Actually it helped me. Before my surgery in May 2002 I had a very dialed right ventricel (6 times) and an ejection fraction of about 23% (normal is about 55%). After surgery the RV was a bit smaller and no change in the EF. Most if not all recovery for damaged heart muscle occurs within 6-12 months after surgery. During that time I had no more recovery. I had a checkup on Monday and this was after my whole church did a prayer session on sunday and the day of the visit and the Doctor said my heart looks good and the RV is smaller and the EF is $35.

[Lord Zentei]

Actually it helped me. Before my surgery in May 2002 I had a very dialed right ventricel (6 times) and an ejection fraction of about 23% (normal is about 55%). After surgery the RV was a bit smaller and no change in the EF. Most if not all recovery for damaged heart muscle occurs within 6-12 months after surgery. During that time I had no more recovery. I had a checkup on Monday and this was after my whole church did a prayer session on sunday and the day of the visit and the Doctor said my heart looks good and the RV is smaller and the EF is $35.

You are aware, are you not, that an anecdote is not evidence, and that "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a logical fallacy?

[Darth RyanKCR]

Actually it helped me. Before my surgery in May 2002 I had a very dialed right ventricel (6 times) and an ejection fraction of about 23% (normal is about 55%). After surgery the RV was a bit smaller and no change in the EF. Most if not all recovery for damaged heart muscle occurs within 6-12 months after surgery. During that time I had no more recovery. I had a checkup on Monday and this was after my whole church did a prayer session on sunday and the day of the visit and the Doctor said my heart looks good and the RV is smaller and the EF is $35.

Sorry should have been 35%.

Actually my Doctor was surprised and could not explain it. He had another person with him confirm what he was seeing. The heart once damaged to a certain point does not recover. Progression of it getting worse can be managed but not recovery after a certain point.

[Lord Zentei]

I reiterate my previous post:

You are aware, are you not, that an anecdote is not evidence, and that "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a logical fallacy?

[Zero]

*snip anecdotal bullshit*

That doesn't change that you're spouting anecdotal evidence, or that the data suggests that you're simply wrong in, at the very least, most cases. Why does your personal anecdote change the fact that there's actually a greater chance of having complications after prayer?

Furthermore, how can you actually show that in your personal anecdote, your recovery had any relation to prayer at all?

[Darth Wong]

Actually it helped me. Before my surgery in May 2002 I had a very dialed right ventricel (6 times) and an ejection fraction of about 23% (normal is about 55%). After surgery the RV was a bit smaller and no change in the EF. Most if not all recovery for damaged heart muscle occurs within 6-12 months after surgery. During that time I had no more recovery. I had a checkup on Monday and this was after my whole church did a prayer session on sunday and the day of the visit and the Doctor said my heart looks good and the RV is smaller and the EF is $35.

Yet again you demonstrate that you are so stupid you should not be allowed to speak in public. What evidence do you have that you would have done worse without the prayer? The fact that the average patient in that condition does worse than you did? Do you understand what the word "average" means?

[Admiral Valdemar]

While I like seeing these studies, a lot of them can be seen as a false given, unless you're finding atheists families for a certain number of disorders, it's pretty hard to imagine anyone abiding the "Don't pray for them" rule. Especially with a life threatening condition.

Not that we need studies to show prayer is useless. The success rate is about the same as me worshipping my dog.

[Pezzoni]

While I like seeing these studies, a lot of them can be seen as a false given, unless you're finding atheists families for a certain number of disorders, it's pretty hard to imagine anyone abiding the "Don't pray for them" rule. Especially with a life threatening condition.

I wonder if you get entire churches devoting days to praying for the patients in an attempt to specifically mess up the studies?

[Admiral Valdemar]

In all probability, you may. You can't control everyone related to the patient, and the type of people who believe in prayer working aren't exactly the type to care about the thoughts of a lab coat wearer. Ergo, you may get immediate family to cease and desist, but I doubt other friends and family will. An uncontrolled variable ruins an experiment, even if it's one stating the obvious.

[Darth RyanKCR]

I reiterate my previous post:

You are aware, are you not, that an anecdote is not evidence, and that "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a logical fallacy?

I won't pretent that my case speaks for everybody. Also the best I could have seen was stability. I recovered a bit after surgery then got a little worse after then stabilized. Based on previous cases: I should have died from sudden cardiac arrest from arrythmia long before. Kids with similar defects as mine were reaching their early 20's and 30's and dying. Better follow up and less servere defects have longer and better outcomes. I was at the worse end of both. Of course I still have a long way to go. I do know that several visits were not covered in prayer it was either bad news or no change. When I went down for the visits under prayer there was always good news or a good outcome to be expected.

I can't ignore that. I don't really like those experiments because God works on a one on one bases and see the miracles and changed hearts in those types of situations. The other is too general and impersonal and I don't accept the experiments.

If anything now I know I can be around longer to work more on my LEGO models. I'm trying to save up for the Star Destroyer but I keep spending it on the Force FX light sabers.

[SirNitram]

You know, I can't help but think beleiving God is going to reach down and correct a defect just for you, but not do a damn thing for millions of others in the world is the epitome of pride and arrogance. The possibility that, you know, you had some great doctors escapes you, because apparently you can't beleive in human beings at all.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You assume God didn't plan for you to get a dodgy ticker then and die anyway. Afterall, He works in mysterious ways and who are we to mess with The Plan?

[Lord Zentei]

I won't pretent that my case speaks for everybody. Also the best I could have seen was stability. I recovered a bit after surgery then got a little worse after then stabilized. Based on previous cases: I should have died from sudden cardiac arrest from arrythmia long before. Kids with similar defects as mine were reaching their early 20's and 30's and dying. Better follow up and less servere defects have longer and better outcomes. I was at the worse end of both. Of course I still have a long way to go. I do know that several visits were not covered in prayer it was either bad news or no change. When I went down for the visits under prayer there was always good news or a good outcome to be expected.

Bully for you. This still does not prove that it was because of the prayer that you got better, as opposed to you simply being a tough and/or lucky guy.

I can't ignore that. I don't really like those experiments because God works on a one on one bases and see the miracles and changed hearts in those types of situations. The other is too general and impersonal and I don't accept the experiments.

Except for the fact that even IF god worked on a one to one basis, and IF prayers made things better, the experiments would still show a posetive correlation.

Think of it this way: let's say that 5% of all people manage to get better as well as you did on their own (just for the sake of the argument). If god has a 1% change of answering prayers, the chance of people getting better with prayer would be 6%, higher than the test group, and the experimenters would notice this. It does not matter that the experimenters don't know in advance which particular people would supposedly benefit from prayer.

[Darth Wong]

I reiterate my previous post:

You are aware, are you not, that an anecdote is not evidence, and that "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" is a logical fallacy?

I won't pretent that my case speaks for everybody.

Way to miss the point, fool. Your case doesn't even "speak" for you. You have presented no evidence whatsoever for the cause-and-effect argument you're making, even in this single case.

Also the best I could have seen was stability. I recovered a bit after surgery then got a little worse after then stabilized. Based on previous cases: I should have died from sudden cardiac arrest from arrythmia long before. Kids with similar defects as mine were reaching their early 20's and 30's and dying. Better follow up and less servere defects have longer and better outcomes. I was at the worse end of both. Of course I still have a long way to go. I do know that several visits were not covered in prayer it was either bad news or no change. When I went down for the visits under prayer there was always good news or a good outcome to be expected.

And I assume this has all been thoroughly documented, right? Oops, I know what you're going to say now.

I can't ignore that. I don't really like those experiments because God works on a one on one bases and see the miracles and changed hearts in those types of situations. The other is too general and impersonal and I don't accept the experiments.

In other words, you can't explain them so you simply ignore them.

If anything now I know I can be around longer to work more on my LEGO models. I'm trying to save up for the Star Destroyer but I keep spending it on the Force FX light sabers.

God obviously loves me way more than he loves you. I was born without a heart defect at all.

[RedImperator]

God must be getting more generous in his old age. How else do you explain so many people surviving diseases and recovering from injuries that would have been hopeless twenty years ago, let alone throughout the vast majority of human history?

[Darth Wong]

God must be getting more generous in his old age. How else do you explain so many people surviving diseases and recovering from injuries that would have been hopeless twenty years ago, let alone throughout the vast majority of human history?

God was so generous to Darth RyanKCR that he made sure the entire field of cardiac surgery would be developed before he was born, so that he wouldn't die in his infancy as he would have in the time of Jesus.

[Darth Servo]

God must be getting more generous in his old age. How else do you explain so many people surviving diseases and recovering from injuries that would have been hopeless twenty years ago, let alone throughout the vast majority of human history?

God was so generous to Darth RyanKCR that he made sure the entire field of cardiac surgery would be developed before he was born, so that he wouldn't die in his infancy as he would have in the time of Jesus.

Oh, but remember, thats when REAL physics defying miracles happened every other day.

[mr friendly guy]

Richard Dawkins did a small segment of this in "The root of all evil". Essentially he asked the people at Lourdes about reported miracles. I think the official number was 66. Dawkins then pointed out this is 66 out of millions of visitors, which is statisitcally insignificant. Seriously, if you had a drug which was tested on millions of patients and only 66 had some response, which drug company would market it?