Prayer doesn't help heart patients

[Wicked Pilot]

Just in case no one caught it the groups who were prayed for did worse. Not statistically significantly worse, but worse nonetheless.

APOLOGIST, START YOUR ENGINES!

[Durandal]

God obviously loves me way more than he loves you. I was born without a heart defect at all.

With you being a Dark Lord of the Sith, I'd simply assumed that you used your powers from inside your mother's womb to heal the horrible defects God undoubtedly must have cursed you with during your conception, since he knew you'd be an atheist.

[Lord Zentei]

Just in case no one caught it the groups who were prayed for did worse. Not statistically significantly worse, but worse nonetheless.

APOLOGIST, START YOUR ENGINES!

It's the LORD punishing people for the temerity of testing him.

Seriously, if it is not statistically significant, that means that prayer is meaningless one way or the other.

[Dalton]

Another research about prayer not having any effect on patients.

Gee, no shit?

[Ghost Rider]

Another research about prayer not having any effect on patients.
Instead it turned out that knowing that people prayed for you could increase the rate of complications, probably due to stress.

The first demonstrates...I really should've found my calling to get funds for useless research. Something on the level of "Sunsets, Yellow or Orange?".

The second warms the cockles of my cold dying heart.

[mr friendly guy]

You know, if patients who were prayed for had a better recovery rate than the control even if the better rate is NOT statistically significant, fundies would be pointing it out and ignoring the oh so inconvenient fact about statistics.

At least over here we freely acknowledge the statistical insignificance.

[Spoonist]

->Darth RyanKCR
I don't mind you having faith in that your prayer group helped you through a difficult time. I think that it is fine to have a community care for its members and to show it publicly. I don't even mind you spreading the anecdote. If you feel better for it then good luck with that. As long as you recognize that medical science is doing the bulk of the job, that without the hospital and the doctor then your faith and prayer would not have helped at all. Old joke to allegorize the feeling.

And what I do mind is that we know that people of faith, regardless of them being christian, muslim, hindu, wiccan etc do not live longer or have a higher chance to survive medical difficulties. But what does improve peoples lifespan and their chance to survive medical difficulties is proper medical science, ie hospitals, doctors and medicine.
Again and again and again a lot of money and resources are spent on faith based research for faith based reasons, where we know that regardless of the results people will still pray for the sick, and where we know that those money could have actually helped fund a proper medical research which would have actually helped somebody.

So I'm fine with you putting faith in the healing powers of your god as long as you recognize that you should give your tribute to medicine and not the church because that is what did the bulk of the work.

[Darth RyanKCR]

->Darth RyanKCR
I don't mind you having faith in that your prayer group helped you through a difficult time. I think that it is fine to have a community care for its members and to show it publicly. I don't even mind you spreading the anecdote. If you feel better for it then good luck with that. As long as you recognize that medical science is doing the bulk of the job, that without the hospital and the doctor then your faith and prayer would not have helped at all. Old joke to allegorize the feeling.

And what I do mind is that we know that people of faith, regardless of them being christian, muslim, hindu, wiccan etc do not live longer or have a higher chance to survive medical difficulties. But what does improve peoples lifespan and their chance to survive medical difficulties is proper medical science, ie hospitals, doctors and medicine.
Again and again and again a lot of money and resources are spent on faith based research for faith based reasons, where we know that regardless of the results people will still pray for the sick, and where we know that those money could have actually helped fund a proper medical research which would have actually helped somebody.

So I'm fine with you putting faith in the healing powers of your god as long as you recognize that you should give your tribute to medicine and not the church because that is what did the bulk of the work.

I know medice has done the bulk of the work. I believe God may have kept me safe during some difficult times. There was a young lady in my area who was having a defibrillater implanted but because of a previous surgery and scar tissue she had bleeding issues and for 4 hours she bled out as they kept transfusing blood. She died on the table. When I had my total correction surgery a suture on the Aorta from the tearing down on a shunt let loose. I bled for about 48 hours and was transfused 50 pints of blood when I was ten. I came out very well and quickly from that surgery.

I believe science grew out of people's quest to see how God's universe worked.

[Lagmonster]

When I had my total correction surgery a suture on the Aorta from the tearing down on a shunt let loose. I bled for about 48 hours and was transfused 50 pints of blood when I was ten. I came out very well and quickly from that surgery.

When people correct you and say that anecdotes are not evidence, they mean that a story like this only demonstrates either exceptional luck or the fact that you either were healthier, stronger, or had better doctors than the girl did. It's a matter of what you can prove over what you believe.

I believe science grew out of people's quest to see how God's universe worked.

Unfortunately, personal beliefs don't shape reality. You can believe you're a potato but that isn't the underlying meaning to why you're being served at McDonalds.

[Darth Wong]

I know medice has done the bulk of the work. I believe God may have kept me safe during some difficult times. There was a young lady in my area who was having a defibrillater implanted but because of a previous surgery and scar tissue she had bleeding issues and for 4 hours she bled out as they kept transfusing blood. She died on the table. When I had my total correction surgery a suture on the Aorta from the tearing down on a shunt let loose. I bled for about 48 hours and was transfused 50 pints of blood when I was ten. I came out very well and quickly from that surgery.

What supreme arrogance, to think that it was God's will rather than simple material factors (such as luck, genetics, etc) which allowed you to live and the girl to die. Have you ever gone to the dead girl's family and explained to them your belief that God chose you to live and her daughter to die?

And you still haven't answered my point. God favoured me so much over you that I never even needed that surgery at all. While you were on the operating table I was watching TV. Why did God fuck you up so badly?

I believe science grew out of people's quest to see how God's universe worked.

Of course. Aristotle was actually a Christian, right?

[Trytostaydead]

You know, if patients who were prayed for had a better recovery rate than the control even if the better rate is NOT statistically significant, fundies would be pointing it out and ignoring the oh so inconvenient fact about statistics.

At least over here we freely acknowledge the statistical insignificance.

Of course. But prayer does play a significant role in a patient's quality of life if they're religious. Not necessarily health wise, but if they're happy getting it, then by all means give them more provided you can convince them that medicine and prayer can play together.

[Darth Wong]

You know, if patients who were prayed for had a better recovery rate than the control even if the better rate is NOT statistically significant, fundies would be pointing it out and ignoring the oh so inconvenient fact about statistics.

At least over here we freely acknowledge the statistical insignificance.

Of course. But prayer does play a significant role in a patient's quality of life if they're religious. Not necessarily health wise, but if they're happy getting it, then by all means give them more provided you can convince them that medicine and prayer can play together.

But statistically, it appears that prayer actually hurts their health chances.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

I know medice has done the bulk of the work. I believe God may have kept me safe during some difficult times. There was a young lady in my area who was having a defibrillater implanted but because of a previous surgery and scar tissue she had bleeding issues and for 4 hours she bled out as they kept transfusing blood. She died on the table. When I had my total correction surgery a suture on the Aorta from the tearing down on a shunt let loose. I bled for about 48 hours and was transfused 50 pints of blood when I was ten. I came out very well and quickly from that surgery.

How young was the young lady? How big were her "bleeding issues" compared to yours? Do you think every time something is torn it is exactly the same tear? Were the doctors overseeing her competent? Were yours? What were the expected outcomes for both of you, and did they follow as predicted? What about once the adjustments were made for the tears?

Also, regarding that girl, surely you can give us her name, the city she was in, and a newspaper that carrys an obituary which mentions the manner of her death? I mean, it would be a matter of public record by now, would it not?

I believe science grew out of people's quest to see how God's universe worked.

You know, if you replace "God's" with "the", you might have a point. What you are doing presently, however, is giving the completely unfounded claim that the universe is God's in the first place.

Also, weren't you the guy who claimed a hallucination was Christ Almighty coming down from on high to speak to you? After you already admitted to having non-Christ related hallucinations the last time you were injured? I mean, it's not like he has anything better to do, such as struggle against the iron chariots running through his holy land, right?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I know medice has done the bulk of the work. I believe God may have kept me safe during some difficult times. There was a young lady in my area who was having a defibrillater implanted but because of a previous surgery and scar tissue she had bleeding issues and for 4 hours she bled out as they kept transfusing blood. She died on the table. When I had my total correction surgery a suture on the Aorta from the tearing down on a shunt let loose. I bled for about 48 hours and was transfused 50 pints of blood when I was ten. I came out very well and quickly from that surgery.

Anecdotal evidence is, as has been pointed out repeatedly to you, among the weakest forms of evidence possible. It has also been repeatedly pointed out to you that a given patient's survival depends on a number of perfectly mundane factors, including doctor's skill and experience, availability of resources to treat the patient with, patient age, patient genetics, patient health going into a surgery, and any scar tissue or alterations done in previous surgeries or caused by previous injuries, noticed or unnoticed.

A ten year old child with no previous scarring will, assuming good health and genetics, will have a much better chance of surviving something going wrong. Children are far more resilient than adults. Trauma and ER doctors make repeated notes of this very fact. An adult who has sustained scarring and intrusions from previous surgery will stand a much greater risk of dying, should complications develop. Nowhere in there does an invisible sky-man play any role in it, apart from the placebo effect some might gain in believing they're under his protection. This same effect can be had from injections of saline water and sugar pills, incidentally.

[mr friendly guy]

You know, if patients who were prayed for had a better recovery rate than the control even if the better rate is NOT statistically significant, fundies would be pointing it out and ignoring the oh so inconvenient fact about statistics.

At least over here we freely acknowledge the statistical insignificance.

Of course. But prayer does play a significant role in a patient's quality of life if they're religious. Not necessarily health wise, but if they're happy getting it, then by all means give them more provided you can convince them that medicine and prayer can play together.

But statistically, it appears that prayer actually hurts their health chances.

Rereading the article, it does appear praying increases complications only if you are aware that people are praying on your behalf. If you are unaware, it has no statistical significance at all.

[Spoonist]

Now mind you they did not state the religious beliefs of the patients. So if they had a totally different faith it would be stressfull knowing that the 'wrong' people prayed for you.

[Elaro]

This study reminds me of my dying mother. I recall a conversation I had shortly before she died: She was tslking to me about her annoyance with the whole "positive attitude" thing (which, incidentally, my (very religious) maternal grandmother kept talking about.) I got the feeling she was tired of people (unconsciously) putting pressure on her to get better.

Maybe, when patients know they are being prayed for, they feel under pressure to get better. And stress is known to have a negative effect on healing.

[Lord Zentei]

This study reminds me of my dying mother. I recall a conversation I had shortly before she died: She was tslking to me about her annoyance with the whole "positive attitude" thing (which, incidentally, my (very religious) maternal grandmother kept talking about.) I got the feeling she was tired of people (unconsciously) putting pressure on her to get better.

Maybe, when patients know they are being prayed for, they feel under pressure to get better. And stress is known to have a negative effect on healing.

It might be interesting to study that: ask "do you feel pressure from your loved ones to get better" (whether directly or by some more subtle means) and see if there is a correlation with success rates.

Then ask those who know that they are being prayed for the same question (again, possibly in a subtle way) and see if this accounts for the negative correlation mentioned in the OP.