My monitor is going out--Where should I buy a new CRT?

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Ar-Adunakhor
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Post by Ar-Adunakhor »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Hey Ar-Adunakhor, what about SED monitors? Supposedly they will cost about the same as LCD's and combine all the advantages of LCD's and CRT's with none of the disadvantages of either. I'm still using the same 19" Dell CRT that I've been using for 7 years now, and it's still fantastic. I thought about upgrading to LCD many times, but decided each time that the increase in portability wasn't worth the tradeoffs. SED seems like the way to go, but it also seems too good to be true. Is it a load of BS, or something we should be excited about?
Ah, SED. In answer, yes and no. SED monitors do incoprorate good aspects of both LCDs and CRTs, but they also incorporate bad aspects found in both, as well.

You see, to understand the SED (Surface Conduction Electron Emitter Displays, for those of you wondering) you have to understand how both LCDs and CRTs work, as they are both incorporated into this "new" screen type. I use new in quotes there due to the fact it is not a new technology at all, merely a reiteration of what we already have, packaged differently and based on different principles. The crux of the explanation is this: CRTs contribute the output ability and LCDs contribute the output method.

First, let's review the CRT bloodline of this bastard child. How do SEDs work? To understand that, you must first understand how CRTs work. In CRTs a cathode/anode array fires electrons at phosphors, (which reside at the front of the monitor) causing them to enter an excited state and discharge the energy they recieved in the form of light. The SED works in exactly the same way, but with a difference in the nature of the electron distributor. SEDs use long sheets of "electron emitters" (Toshiba and Canon don't seem to have clarified the exact electronics package used) which are packaged into "cells" which act as pixels. The fact that it continues on in the tradition of perception-interrupt display ensures that it will still have the "flicker" problem, much as the CRTs do.

But what is inherited from the LCD side? Well, the method of display, and hence the size. While these electron emitters light phosphors on the screen in the same way a CRT does, the fact that the emitters themselves are packaged with those phosphors in a "pixel-cell" will probably bring over the resolution problems inherent in LCDs.

Finally, combining these two technologies could create a problem that has not been seen in *either* of the SED's sires. The fact it uses CRT electron-phosphor technology renders it suceptable to deviations and warping/blurring in the image. On CRTs, those deviations would be compensated for through the large number of adjustments that can be performed on the C/A Ray-gun. The problem comes when you take into account the fact that there is no longer a gun, but rather tens of thousands of electron emitters, each hitting a different "mini-screen". It is likely they will attempt to chain all the emitters together and put an adjustment utility on the monitor, however this will introduce many more complications than you will have with a single emitter.

Now, for the benefits of SEDs. Using so many individual electron emitters placed so close to the screen, one could theoretically achieve far greater bringtness and contrast ratios than can currently be seen on either CRTs or LCDs. The only problem with this is that the phosphors themselves can "burn out" or build up a repulsing charge that effectively repels the electrons, causing your screen to die. The same could be said of the higher resolutions that could be had with such a system. Of course, other benefits would be size and picture clarity, but what good is a picture if it warps and burns out quickly?

So, in answer to your "BS or get excited?" question: It's not the second coming of Christ. What you are currently hearing from the magazines and net is just the standard monolithic explosion of semen that companies buy when they are about to release a new product. (From ads, plants, or buying/exclusiveing reviewers, it makes no matter.) If they can work out some of the problems, it has potential... but cautiously optimismtic would be a good default stance for now.

In summary: Don't throw away your CRT, yet. :P
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Beowulf
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Post by Beowulf »

SEDs would have hundreds of thousands to millions of emitters. I believe you misunderstand the technology. It wouldn't have a flicker, because there's no need to scan the screen with an electron gun to refresh the display. Each pixel could be constantly on. Similarly, you wouldn't get the screen warping problems that CRTs can have, because the electron beam goes a fraction of a mm. The electron beam never leaves the pixel. CRTs have that problem, because the beam has to go across a foot long vacuum before it hits the screen.

EDIT: one of the problems that could be found in an SED is a stuck pixel, just like an LCD, for similar reasons.
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Ar-Adunakhor
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Post by Ar-Adunakhor »

Beowulf wrote:SEDs would have hundreds of thousands to millions of emitters.
Yeah, that one was my fault. Change tens of thousands to millions.
Beowulf wrote:I believe you misunderstand the technology. It wouldn't have a flicker, because there's no need to scan the screen with an electron gun to refresh the display. Each pixel could be constantly on.
Yes, but if you leave it constantly on you would get ghosting due to perception factors, correct? Not only that, but being constantly bombarded with electrons would vastly shorten the life of the phosphors. I interpreted the press releases and demos as them having the ability to do either, and therefore I chose the one I saw as better. If this is not the case, I would certianly like to know so I can go look into it.
Beowulf wrote:Similarly, you wouldn't get the screen warping problems that CRTs can have, because the electron beam goes a fraction of a mm. The electron beam never leaves the pixel. CRTs have that problem, because the beam has to go across a foot long vacuum before it hits the screen.
Yes, I know that and thought I mentioned it. Unfortunately, I seem to have deleted the lines addressing it in my pre-post revision. Damnit.

So yes, apologies again, I meant that they would be suceptable to electrostatic charges and enviromental effects, not the inherent warping caused within a traditional CRT. While the electrons do indeed travel a small distance, they are nonetheless capable of being influenced by charges built up by both the phosphors (through prolonged exposure to bombardment) or outside effects. Though, I admit, to affect the electron over a few nanometers would take a pretty powerful outside effect.
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Beowulf
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Post by Beowulf »

Ar-Adunakhor wrote:
Beowulf wrote:I believe you misunderstand the technology. It wouldn't have a flicker, because there's no need to scan the screen with an electron gun to refresh the display. Each pixel could be constantly on.
Yes, but if you leave it constantly on you would get ghosting due to perception factors, correct? Not only that, but being constantly bombarded with electrons would vastly shorten the life of the phosphors. I interpreted the press releases and demos as them having the ability to do either, and therefore I chose the one I saw as better. If this is not the case, I would certianly like to know so I can go look into it.
I'm not sure too much on this point, but you could reasonably lower the ghosting problem by using phosphers which don't stay illuminated for as long after the beam shuts off. In anycase, with the refresh rate being what it is, there shouldn't be a problem with ghosting too much either. Most of the problem with ghosting in LCDs is because LCDs don't react very fast. Some manufacturers have countered this with over driving the LCD signal, to cause the pixel elements to react faster, but this can cause the lag noted earlier in this thread. SEDs shouldn't have this problem.
So yes, apologies again, I meant that they would be suceptable to electrostatic charges and enviromental effects, not the inherent warping caused within a traditional CRT. While the electrons do indeed travel a small distance, they are nonetheless capable of being influenced by charges built up by both the phosphors (through prolonged exposure to bombardment) or outside effects. Though, I admit, to affect the electron over a few nanometers would take a pretty powerful outside effect.
You'd probably need a magnetic field strength greater than anything mass produced to cause an effect in that short amount of space. Electro-statics should be easy enough to counter with another clear conductive layer over the display that's grounded.


All that said, I'd wait until they get to their second revision before I bought one. My CRT should last for a while yet.
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Ar-Adunakhor
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Post by Ar-Adunakhor »

Beowulf wrote:I'm not sure too much on this point, but you could reasonably lower the ghosting problem by using phosphers which don't stay illuminated for as long after the beam shuts off. In anycase, with the refresh rate being what it is, there shouldn't be a problem with ghosting too much either. Most of the problem with ghosting in LCDs is because LCDs don't react very fast. Some manufacturers have countered this with over driving the LCD signal, to cause the pixel elements to react faster, but this can cause the lag noted earlier in this thread. SEDs shouldn't have this problem.
They have already gotten the LCDs down to an extremely low response time, and are at the point of diminishing returns on that front. That is why the extremely overpowered rigs that are flaunted at tech demos are able to operate LCDs with no ghosting. At this point it is the nature of the beast itself that is causing the "ghosting" problem, and if the companies making SEDs go with a constant stream rather than a shutter effect, SEDs will suffer from it as well. Not as badly as the old LCDs, of course, but they won't be a ton better than the LCDs we have now.
Beowulf wrote:You'd probably need a magnetic field strength greater than anything mass produced to cause an effect in that short amount of space. Electro-statics should be easy enough to counter with another clear conductive layer over the display that's grounded.
Would the emitters be free of the plates though? They can still pick up and hold a charge, and while not terribly powerful, the electron is right there... so I would imagine thre could be some distortion, even if it is only minor.
Beowulf wrote:All that said, I'd wait until they get to their second revision before I bought one. My CRT should last for a while yet.
Yeah, it's always best to let the bleeding-edge adopters work out the kinks, first.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Ar-Adunakhor wrote:Yeah, it's always best to let the bleeding-edge adopters work out the kinks, first.
"Early adopter" is a polite phrase for "sucker". :wink:
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Post by Jade Falcon »

When my CRT monitor was dying (the picture was VERY dark, even at full brightness), I looked at LCD's, and was a bit wary.

I finally settled on a Benq LCD with an 8ms response times and there's been no problems so far.
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Post by lukexcom »

I just moved from a Sceptre 19" CRT, 1600x1200 @70hz, to a 20.1" Samsung SyncMaster 204B for $399. 5ms response time, although I could never find out if it's the grey-grey or black-white-black response time.

Other than the fact that I'm stuck with 1600x1200 for all games (hello new $500 graphics card every 8-12 months just to keep up), I enjoy the monitor and its compactness. I have not seen any ghosting issues so far.

Although running Oblivion at 1600x1200, full HDR, 0xAA (despite HDR+AA being available), and 4xAS on my Radeon X1900XTX, Athlon X2 4200+, and 2gb Corsair PC3200 is pushing the system to its limits, bringing it down to 15-25fps outdoors at many times.

I used to build a new gaming machine every 24 months. Now I will have to upgrade either the graphics card, processor, ram or motherboard (or any combination of those as hardware compatibility and bottlenecks necessitate) every 8-12 months. Because any resolution below 1600x1200 just looks....bleh. And I need 1600x1200 for graphics and programming. Photoshop and Visual Studio.NET are so much more comfortable for me at high resolutions.

Prior to my recent purchase of this screen, I was looking at a 21" CRT monitor. But with the Diamondtron screens being out of production and hard to find, and the huge footprint of said CRTs, I very reluctantly and ever-so-cautiously took the LCD plunge. So far, I like it, and I'm keeping it, despite the related costs of keeping my hardware 1600x1200-capable.

Future upgrades if tax refunds are generous: multiple LCDs spanning one desktop. :)
-Luke
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