Is there a fundamental energy in life?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-06-20 01:04pm

I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-06-20 01:07pm

sketerpot · Post by **sketerpot** » 2006-06-20 01:08pm

No. If there were such a thing, you would hear actual scientists mentioning it from time to time.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-20 01:08pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

How can you progress so far in school and yet ask such stupid questions? You're getting this idea from movies rather than any kind of scientific reasoning or textbooks; shouldn't that tell you something?

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2006-06-20 01:10pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

Yes- organized chemical energy.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-06-20 01:11pm

Are you asking about a Force-like field that exists in all living things and acts like a binding for all life.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-20 01:12pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?
Yes- organized chemical energy.

Since when are exothermal chemical reactions not found outside of living things? Do you believe a car is alive?

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 01:15pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Yes- organized chemical energy.

Chemical energy is present in non-living things. What do you mean by "organized", specifically?

Incidentally, there is such a thing as a bioelectric field, though electric fields are not unique to life.

So, in answer to the question: "no".

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2006-06-20 02:19pm

Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear with what I meant. I meant that the chemical reactions found in life are organized in a self-sustaining (through the aquisition of additonal energy/material), self-perpetuating way (breeding); something that is not found in non-living objects. In fact, these two properties are key characteristics as to how living is distuigished from non-living in biology.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 02:20pm

Crystals can self-replicate.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2006-06-20 02:24pm

Lord Zentei wrote:Crystals can self-replicate.

No- they can only form and enlarge. There is no self-regulated process by which they split (ie replicate) and grow to their "full" size- to repeat the process.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-06-20 02:32pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear with what I meant. I meant that the chemical reactions found in life are organized in a self-sustaining (through the aquisition of additonal energy/material), self-perpetuating way (breeding); something that is not found in non-living objects. In fact, these two properties are key characteristics as to how living is distuigished from non-living in biology.

That's hardly a type of "energy" and it's just chemistry, the exact same principles involved in every other facet of chemistry, just in one peculiar arrangement.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-06-20 02:33pm

Is anyone but me getting sick of this energy brainbug? Because of movies and cartoons or comics, there seems to be the impression that "energy" is usually some magical coloured fluid or beam or gas or something, as opposed to the potential energy of a bucket above a door, or within unstable chemical bonds. So when a ghost or alien sucks all the "energy" out of a Human, they're ridding the body of all its ATP, carbohydrates, lipids and proteins? Ohhhkay.

Energy is just a definition of something that can get work done. It does not exist as some unique entity, though the closest you could get would be EM fields for instance. I half expect people to mention Energon cubes or something.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 02:33pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Lord Zentei wrote:Crystals can self-replicate.
No- they can only form and enlarge. There is no self-regulated process by which they split (ie replicate) and grow to their "full" size- to repeat the process.

Tsk. Now you are adding concepts: you did not mention "self regulating" before now, nor "full size", you just mentioned "self sustaining" and "self perpetuating". Besides, this is not really a specific type of energy you are talking about as the OP asked for. Chemical energy is just that even if the particular compounds involved possess remarkable properties.

Incidentally, the "full size" criteria may not always be relevant to living things; and crystals can fragment, allowing new ones to grow from the fragments (though that is arguably not "self-regulated").

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 02:36pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:Is anyone but me getting sick of this energy brainbug?

Yes.

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I half expect people to mention Energon cubes or something.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2006-06-20 02:38pm

Rye wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Sorry, I should have been a bit more clear with what I meant. I meant that the chemical reactions found in life are organized in a self-sustaining (through the aquisition of additonal energy/material), self-perpetuating way (breeding); something that is not found in non-living objects. In fact, these two properties are key characteristics as to how living is distuigished from non-living in biology.
That's hardly a type of "energy" and it's just chemistry, the exact same principles involved in every other facet of chemistry, just in one peculiar arrangement.

Well- chemistry is the study of "chemical energy", which is really nothing but the study of the interaction between peripheral electrons and nuceli with varying numbers of protons (depending on the element). So yes, it is a type of "energy", and how its arranged IS unique to life- which is what I was originally claiming. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not claiming that this particular arrangement gives any sort of supernatural vodoo-juju powers.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2006-06-20 02:39pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

I thought you were a geologist. Are you really this gullible? Do you believe in that "21 grams" crap too?

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-06-20 02:40pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've seen it in scifi a few times; the monster absorbs the "nuclear energy" or "electromagnetic energy" which all life forms have or which makes them unique to power itself. My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: Are you fucking kidding me? A biological entity is nothing more than a protein and lipid sack which contains water a bunch of proteins and a number of complex organic molecules and sugars. It maintains itself via energy liberated via a redox reaction involving sugars, organic compounds and some sort of oxidizer, such as oxygen.

You can get these same reactions to occur in a test-tube. Thus, there is no mysterious woo-woo energy that's special to life.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 02:42pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Well- chemistry is the study of "chemical energy", which is really nothing but the study of the interaction between peripheral electrons and nuceli with varying numbers of protons (depending on the element). So yes, it is a type of "energy", and how its arranged IS unique to life- which is what I was originally claiming. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not claiming that this particular arrangement gives any sort of supernatural vodoo-juju powers.

The OP:

My question is, is there a particular kind of energy which is present in all living things which is not present in nonliving things?

Chemical energy is a type of energy, and you have no need for inverted commas. Moreover, it is a type of energy that is present in nonliving things. However, "how it is arranged" is a red herring.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-06-20 02:43pm

It was pretty clear exactly what the OP was asking, and that wasn't it. You could use the same argument to assert the existence of fucking "rock energy."

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-06-20 02:47pm

This is a lot like the whole soul argument now I think about it (and read Durandal's post). The idea that our cognitive processes are the sum of some intangible construct that is everlasting and goes to Heaven and all that crap is pretty common in modern society. Even when I, and any neurologist, can explain away everything that makes our personality by simply resorting to biochemistry.

I ignore, of course, the rather convoluted debate between Sir Penrose and Tegmark over whether the brain has a unique, biological quantum processor that cannot be duplicated to create A.I.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 02:51pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:I ignore, of course, the rather convoluted debate between Sir Penrose and Tegmark over whether the brain has a unique, biological quantum processor that cannot be duplicated to create A.I.

That would be, I assume, the pseudo-religious quantum processor that Sir Penrose insists is real, even when no evidence for its existance is to be found, as described in the Emperor's New Mind?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2006-06-20 02:55pm

Yes. And infact, I once caught him peddling the idea on a science show on BBC News 24 one night, and despite the host not being a scientist, he sure made Penrose work for it. The idea that we can't make a computer intelligence like that of a Human, is quite preposterous. We may be a long way off getting an artificial version of our own neural net with such integrity, but that doesn't equate to impossible.

The same applies to biologics and their power source. We've even created robots ("gastrobots" as they're called) that can feed off organic matter. I believe the first one was a university built lawnmower looking like a small train that powered itself using a synthetic enzyme matrix (similar to the new fuel-cells being tested) and reducing bacteria.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2006-06-20 02:56pm

Chemical energy is a type of energy, and you have no need for inverted commas

True enough.

Moreover, it is a type of energy that is present in nonliving things.

Of course.

However, "how it is arranged" is a red herring.

The chemical energy of life follows all the same rules of non-living objects. So- in that sense, no its not a distinct form of energy found only in living things. However, how it is arranged is how we distinguish living from non-living entities and that's what I meant by my original post.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-06-20 03:03pm

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:The chemical energy of life follows all the same rules of non-living objects. So- in that sense, no its not a distinct form of energy found only in living things. However, how it is arranged is how we distinguish living from non-living entities and that's what I meant by my original post.

Okay, though that was not what the OP was asking for, hence the pile-on.

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