The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2006-06-20 04:22pm

Just to spell it out: the sort of person who is afraid of an evidence-based discussion is the person who is WRONG and they KNOW IT.

Bow out now Moose, bow out now. . .

Too bad the fool is on such a powertrip from his Modship that he can't possibly admit being wrong ever. He's the quitissential Karl Rove of SW.C, minus the evil political smarts.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2006-06-20 06:07pm

Darth Wong wrote:I hate the way "I heard it from a soldier" is used as an irrefutable authority statement nowadays.

Agreed. It's a bizarre combination of an appeals to authority and emotion fallacies, especially in the modern U.S.: "He (or she) is a soldier! Whatever he says must be true because he fights for our freedom whereever there's trouble!"*

*That's not to suggest I don't greatly respect and, really, admire soldiers. I do. But let's also not pretend that anything a military man/woman says is above criticism by the simple virtue of his/her service.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-06-20 08:45pm

I'm willing to bet that if anyone else offered up an anecdote about soldiers, Dark Moose would immediately call him a liar.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2006-06-20 09:13pm

Surlethe wrote:I'm willing to bet that if anyone else offered up an anecdote about soldiers, Dark Moose would immediately call him a liar.

Surlethe! Surely you aren't suggesting he is a dishonest brown-nosing minioned hypocrite?

Seriously though, you guys should get some of the mess over here to rebutt them, and then go post some "I know a soldier who says this!" stories of your own.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-06-20 11:11pm

We got a dozen soldiers in themess who will all say that 3 million is way to low. Does that mean we win?

Adam Reynolds · Post by **Adam Reynolds** » 2006-06-21 12:19am

I tried to post a SOODS thread on the official site but it was deleted.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-06-21 01:40am

Adamskywalker007 wrote:I tried to post a SOODS thread on the official site but it was deleted.

Well sure, that's an "attack" video...

Put up the one that advocates George Lucas' assasination. Moose has no trouble with that.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2006-06-21 03:07am

Lord Poe wrote:
Adamskywalker007 wrote:I tried to post a SOODS thread on the official site but it was deleted.
Well sure, that's an "attack" video...

Put up the one that advocates George Lucas' assasination. Moose has no trouble with that.

Try posting both in the same thread, that'll confuse them. I'm tempted to join the thread/forum, but I figure I'll be sniffed out and banhammered toot-sweet.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-21 10:55am

There's not much point in participating in that "discussion". DM flamebaits, it's forbidden to ask people to back up points etc. Heck, DM even refused to back up claims that the three million figure had overridden the other works which states otherwise with a definitive statement from Licensing, saying:

Well, no, I won't show you that. We're not going to make demands on one another in this thread, so I won't demand sources for your points either - you can provide them if you like[...]

He then posted a list of sources which supposedly supports a range of "millions" of clones:

Labyrinth of Evil
Hard Contact
Triple Zero
Odds
Cestus Deception
Shatterpoint
Attack of the Clones (movie)
Attack of the Clones visual guide
Battle of Kamino Comic
ROTS novel
Battle of Jabiim comic

Naturally, the majority of the sources listed above doesn't support the claims and some are very ambiguous (e.g. LoE).

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-06-21 10:57am

The RotS novel? That's total bullshit. 3,000,000 clones couldn't be deployed on Coruscant as described in the novel, not to mention the conversation between the Senators about governors arriving with clonetrooper regiments in Republic star systems and being fearful it'll happen in every system. Just how long would that take given his assumptions about clone trooper production? Forever?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-21 11:09am

Has this DM clown ever had a real job? What kind of childish asstard responds to a losing argument by forbidding people to make challenges to claims? It's the exact opposite of our rules, where people are required to answer challenges for evidence. He might as well call his forum "The Unsupported Bullshit Zone".

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-06-21 11:20am

Mange wrote:He then posted a list of sources which supposedly supports a range of "millions" of clones:
Labyrinth of Evil
Hard Contact
Triple Zero
Odds
Cestus Deception
Shatterpoint
Attack of the Clones (movie)
Attack of the Clones visual guide
Battle of Kamino Comic
ROTS novel
Battle of Jabiim comic
Naturally, the majority of the sources listed above doesn't support the claims and some are very ambiguous (e.g. LoE).

Isn't this a bit like if I were to go into an American court as a lawyer and declare that the U.S. consitution gave my client full rights to shoot a passerby on the street in cold blood. IOW "That proves my case! No I'm not actually going to say how it proves it! It just does!"
I think I'd be laughed out of court.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-06-21 11:23am

Darth Wong wrote:Has this DM clown ever had a real job? What kind of childish asstard responds to a losing argument by forbidding people to make challenges to claims? It's the exact opposite of our rules, where people are required to answer challenges for evidence. He might as well call his forum "The Unsupported Bullshit Zone".

Or he could take after FOX and call it "The No-Spin Zone." He does describe himself as being "fair and balanced," though not in so many words.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-21 11:24am

It actually reminds me of the idiot creationist I once debated face-to-face who, when challenged to provide evidence for his claim that evolution was a fraud, said "You want evidence? Go look at any science textbook."

Yeah that's right, I'm sure there are plenty of science textbooks which say that science is wrong. But this is really the same thing; he just tosses out names of SW sources at random even if they say the exact opposite of what Karen Travesty is saying. Like the ROTS novelization, which describes entire worlds being burned off; that doesn't sound like minor brushfires to me. Especially when the description comes from the "omniscient observer" narrator, not a character.

This is actually a very common Internet debating technique; simply make such preposterous claims that one can only respond honestly by accusing him of being a liar, and then ban anyone who accuses you of being a liar because that's considered a "personal attack".

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-21 01:07pm

Hmm, can it really be considered flaming or otherwise offensive to say that someone lacks knowledge of something when that person through statements etc. has showed that he (or in this case she) didn't have knowledge about a specific issue (yes, I'm talking about Traviss and her claims about Kamino).

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-06-21 05:02pm

Mange wrote:There's not much point in participating in that "discussion". DM flamebaits, it's forbidden to ask people to back up points etc. Heck, DM even refused to back up claims that the three million figure had overridden the other works which states otherwise with a definitive statement from Licensing, saying:
Well, no, I won't show you that. We're not going to make demands on one another in this thread, so I won't demand sources for your points either - you can provide them if you like[...]
He then posted a list of sources which supposedly supports a range of "millions" of clones:
Labyrinth of Evil
Hard Contact
Triple Zero
Odds
Cestus Deception
Shatterpoint
Attack of the Clones (movie)
Attack of the Clones visual guide
Battle of Kamino Comic
ROTS novel
Battle of Jabiim comic
Naturally, the majority of the sources listed above doesn't support the claims and some are very ambiguous (e.g. LoE).

Cestus Deception has a single chaplin having seen a million troops march to their death. Fucking liar.

Linkl to my damn essay. I cover all of this shit there. No wonder he tried to cover that so hard.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-06-21 06:09pm

It's also noteworthy that if he throws out random bullshit "sources" when challenged, he's superficially answering your challenge; when you go back and accuse him of not providing evidence, he can always point to the list and go, "See? See? I did!" Of course, the problem is the assumption that you're going to dig through those sources and find the quotes which support his side, in essence doing all the dirty work for him!

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-06-21 06:42pm

Dark Moose wants to lock the thread now, since "we've" reached the conclusion that the GAR is only 3 million strong.

And I know you're reading this too, you fucking coward.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-06-21 07:08pm

Ender wrote:Linkl to my damn essay. I cover all of this shit there. No wonder he tried to cover that so hard.

Where is it on the net? :S

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-06-22 12:16am

I've spoken to the author of the ROTS:ICS, and gave him a link to that thread where its claimed the ROTS:ICS has been invalidated by "ODDS".

The response was: ROTS:ICS is canon. "ODDS" is not.

I think I'll take the word of the author of the "definitive" DK books over a message board flunky wth delusions of grandeur and a hard-on for old rat-loving, pen collecting, Brit spinsters.

You want to know what's going on? It's pretty easy to figure out. Remember Pabo Hidalgo? The guy that posted this:

And if you're writing a cross sections book or anything that pretends to be a technical manual, for God's sake STOP! Or, at least get ready for the hate mail.

Hidalgo is the webmaster to starwars.com. He's in charge of Hyperspace. And, he's also involved in SW Insider. The math isn't too hard from here, folks.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-06-22 12:21am

Isn't it strange how a few insignificant numbers--that don't have much meaning to anyone besides us goofs in versus debates--can inspire so much hatred and denial?

Maybe it involves the "de-fantisization" (made that word up right quick) of Star Wars or some such nonsense, that you couldn't enjoy the movies anymore if somewhere, in some obscure book or message board, someone knew how powerful those lasers were.

Phil Skayhan · Post by **Phil Skayhan** » 2006-06-22 02:56am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Isn't it strange how a few insignificant numbers--that don't have much meaning to anyone besides us goofs in versus debates--can inspire so much hatred and denial?

Maybe it involves the "de-fantisization" (made that word up right quick) of Star Wars or some such nonsense, that you couldn't enjoy the movies anymore if somewhere, in some obscure book or message board, someone knew how powerful those lasers were.

This, if the trend continues, will start to irk even the non tech-heads as the perception of the entire Clone Wars would have to change to accomodate one little number faux:

Because there were too few clones, the number of droids had to decrease.
Because there were too few driods, the number of battles was diminished.
Because there were too few battles, the Clone Wars was never a war.
Because there was no war, the Chancelor and the Jedi conspired to decieve the Republic.

Lord Poe wrote:Remember Pabo Hidalgo?

There is some truth in what he says and he almost gets it right when he states:

One of my cardinal rules when I was more involved in the writing of EU projects was "never make absolute statements," because someone, somewhere will always prove you wrong.

So tantalizingly close to the truth.

Yes, someone will always prove you wrong if you don't know how to do it correctly in the first place. Hidalgo apparently believes that if he can't do it, no one can.

RThurmont · Post by **RThurmont** » 2006-06-22 03:23am

So clearly, the problem here is centered around a group of deviant employees in the Lucas Online SBU of Lucasfilm. Interoffice feuds are not uncommon in the business world, the trick is to find a key decision maker and influence that decision maker to favor one side or the other. An outsider with no commercial interests in the activities of Lucas Online could be an ideal intermediary to communicate the need for change to such a decision maker.

Also, it would be quite humorous if Pablo Hidalgo, the SW.com webmaster, was indeed a key driver of this fiasco, as the SW.com website has been the subject of some criticism within the design/branding/interactive community. Interbrand's Brandchannel took a major dump on it, saying:

Hasty typists who enter Lucasfilms.com will go to the dark side and be redirected to Starwars.com, which is completely different in look and feel. The two sites are night and day. Starwars.com looks like it was designed by an isolated teenage enthusiast with a lot of time on his hands and too little sunshine.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-06-22 06:51am

This is really pathetic. It's all boiling down to a few desperate cretins who simply refuse to admit they're wrong out of pride/stupidity/being replaced by pod people.

But yeah. It's the people who have proved them wrong time and again who are the "Talifan"

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2006-06-22 09:32am

Phil Skayhan wrote:This, if the trend continues, will start to irk even the non tech-heads as the perception of the entire Clone Wars would have to change to accomodate one little number faux:

Because there were too few clones, the number of droids had to decrease.
Because there were too few driods, the number of battles was diminished.
Because there were too few battles, the Clone Wars was never a war.
Because there was no war, the Chancelor and the Jedi conspired to decieve the Republic.

Damn. That's a rather nice and concise summary of the whole ordeal, and puts the stupidity of the whole situation right out in front.