The technological stagnation of Middle Earth

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-16 01:35pm

fgalkin wrote:Yes, the Ring symbolizes technology, IIRC.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[sigh]Yes. The Ring is a symbol of technology. Remember that Tolkien's existence is crafted around things "The way they used to be" (to borrow a phrase from F. Scott Fitzgerald). The Lord of the Rings is a Romantic work by any definition of the word. It is nostalgic from page one, and technology becomes evil and a corruptive force on the people of Middle Earth.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-16 02:02pm

Actually, I just got to a part in Fellowship where it explains it quite nicely. Apparently, once the Ring of Power is destroyed, the three Elven rings will lose power, and all the stuff the Elves have created will waste away. So, basically, Elven civilization has been sustained by the rings.

That also explains why they're in such a rush to leave. I thought they were just pussies at first.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-12-16 02:06pm

Durandal wrote:Actually, I just got to a part in Fellowship where it explains it quite nicely. Apparently, once the Ring of Power is destroyed, the three Elven rings will lose power, and all the stuff the Elves have created will waste away. So, basically, Elven civilization has been sustained by the rings.

That also explains why they're in such a rush to leave. I thought they were just pussies at first.

Except they were already leaving before the decision to attempt to destroy the ring right?

They probably figured their time was nearly up.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-16 02:10pm

neoolong wrote:
Durandal wrote:Actually, I just got to a part in Fellowship where it explains it quite nicely. Apparently, once the Ring of Power is destroyed, the three Elven rings will lose power, and all the stuff the Elves have created will waste away. So, basically, Elven civilization has been sustained by the rings.

That also explains why they're in such a rush to leave. I thought they were just pussies at first.
Except they were already leaving before the decision to attempt to destroy the ring right?

They probably figured their time was nearly up.

Their time was up, that's why they were leaving. They knew that the time of Man was approaching and they had better high-tail it out of Middle Earth. Sauron only gave them a kick in the pants.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-12-16 02:25pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
fgalkin wrote:Yes, the Ring symbolizes technology, IIRC.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
[sigh]Yes. The Ring is a symbol of technology. Remember that Tolkien's existence is crafted around things "The way they used to be" (to borrow a phrase from F. Scott Fitzgerald). The Lord of the Rings is a Romantic work by any definition of the word. It is nostalgic from page one, and technology becomes evil and a corruptive force on the people of Middle Earth.

Sorry NO

There is NO symbols of ANY sort in LOTR

JRR Tolkien LOTR Foreword wrote: As for any meaning or 'message' it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither allegorical nor topical

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-16 02:32pm

Do you even know what an allegory is? It is a piece of literature in which the characters each stand for something or someone in real life. Topical merely means current to the modern era. That particular quote was a reference to the adoption of the book by the Hippie movement in the United States.

It is possible to have a symbollic piece of literature without it being an allegory, as an allegory is a particular type of symbolic literature.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-12-16 02:55pm

If Tolkien writes in the book it has no allegory then I am inclined to believe him.

allegory = symbolic work: a work in which the characters and events are to be understood as representing other things and symbolically expressing a deeper, often spiritual, moral, or political meaning .

That gives me:

As for any meaning or 'message' it has in the intention of the author none. It is neither symbolic nor topical

It is possible to have a symbollic piece of literature without it being an allegory, as an allegory is a particular type of symbolic literature.

This one got me really confused please give me some examples if I am wrong

Bear in mind English is not my native tongue and I do use a dictionary for words like allegory

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-16 03:04pm

Books like The Lord of the Flies and The Faerie Queene are what we call complete allegories. A complete allegory is when every character within a book represents something or someone in real life. For example, Simon represents Jesus and religion in LotF, and the Duessa represents lies in TFQ. Books like To Kill a Mockingbird are incomplete allegories, though they may have symbols in them that represent things within real life. For instance, Scout represents a child, or a child's journey in TKMB, but is it fair to say that Atticus represents the legal profession, as well as a father? Is it fair to say that Tim Johnson represents dogs? Is it fair to say that Tom Robinson represents all black people in their struggle to fight off white society? No. In fact, in some cases such allegory is directly contradicted later in the book, such as when Calpurnia tells Scout how she was able to adapt to living separately in white and black societies. This presents a message about the nature of society in general, but Robinson was able to adapt to white society, also. This helps remove the allegorical component of the book.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-12-16 03:19pm

Okay.

This was not a complete waste of a day I did learn something new.

Now how do we know that LOTR is not a complete allegorie like The Lord of the Flies?

Especially considering that JRR says that it is one?

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2002-12-16 03:21pm

Blah just read the preceding paragraph again forget that question....

lgot · Post by **lgot** » 2002-12-16 09:42pm

Tolkien meant that exactly because hippie movement saw the elfs or hobbits as ideal and some people come with the teory (false) the One Ring as a allegory of the Atomic Bomb. That is why he means the book should not have other meaning than any clear one, like companionship, tradition, heroes and stuff alike to such classical saga (Tolkien had the intetion to make one after all).
Now about the one ring being the technology that would bring all the new things...sounds odd, because the one ring is actually destroyed and new things actually come in. The one ring is mainly a symbol of the old times and the likes of Sauron and elfs that have no place in the new age of man...

The Prime Necromancer · Post by **The Prime Necromancer** » 2002-12-16 10:04pm

Technological stagnation in Middle Earth? Why, nothing could be further from the truth.

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/metech.htm

Post by **fgalkin** » 2002-12-17 12:47am

That is...weird.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2002-12-19 06:01pm

It seems quite simple to explain the technological backwardness of Middle Earth when you place it in the context of the history of civilization on our own earth. From Sumeria to America has been almost 5000 years; however, only in a bit more than 500 of these years has technological progress actually been in effect. Why? It is simple

1. People in middle earth dont have the viewpoints or the attitude of a progressive civilization; they see and look upon only the glorious past, of the days when the Numenoreans lived to be 500 years old, when they traded with the elves of Tol Eressea, etc. They dont have anything close to the progressiveness of Francis Bacon, and they are quite similar to Renaissance Scholars who thought the greatest age of human existence was in antiquity(Greco-Roman times). An industrial, developing civilization is completely different.
2. They dont truly need it. Disease seems to be uncommon in middle earth, and slavery is only used by those of the evil side. Although they are practical, they dont particularly see or care about technological advancement.
3. They are in a culdesac typical of the first 4500 years of civilization; they are stuck in a agricultural based feudalism/high agriculture empire(Similar to that of the Romans). Technological advancement does not exist because the populace is firmly divided, intellectually and materialistically, into two classes: The high intellectual and elite, who dont want change and are focused on intiquity, and the low intellectual elites, who are superstition bound and too focused on the tasks at hand.
4. The boost of reason was aided by the facts that the myths of dragons and demons in our world were dispelled by the power of reason. But the people of Middle Earth have REAL demons and dragons, so they are MUCH more inclined to be superstitious.

greenmm · Post by **greenmm** » 2002-12-21 01:26am

Actually, things have gone downhill since the First Age.

Consider:

-- Elrond is ancient. He was born at most maybe a few centuries before the First Age ended. So, he not only saw the entire 2nd Age, but also the 3rd age, and a few years of the 4th age as well. That's more centuries than the Judeo-Christian era so far. Galadriel is even older. She was the granddaughter of the Noldor Elves' first king, way back in the beginning of the 1st Age. In fact, aside from the Ishtari/Wizards and things like the Balrogs and Ents, she's the oldest living thing in Middle-Earth
-- Having that kind of age will give you a completely different perspective on life, normally one where the pace of life slows down.
-- the craft of the Elves in the 2nd Age was unparalleled in the 3rd, but paled in comparison to that of the 1st age. Celebrimbor, the creator of the Gate of Moria and the Elven Rings, was a nephew or 2nd cousin of Galadriel, and grandson of Feanor, who created the Silmarils, indestructible artificial gemstones which held the light from the 2 Trees of Valinor, whose light was superior even to that of the Sun and Moon.
-- the power of the Elves was also unmatched in the 1st age. Elrond spoke of how the Last Alliance could never be equalled again, as Elves and Men had both diminished. Well, the Elves of the 1st Age would have kicked Sauron's sorry ass for good easily. Hell, some of their kings and warriors not only faced off against Balrogs and killed them, but one of their kings even severely wounded Morgoth, Sauron's now-banished master. And Sauron himself was bested by Luthien, an elf/Maiar mix, as well as Berem her Human lover (both of whom were Elrond's great-grandparents).
-- the Numenorians had the same problem when they came to Middle-Earth as well. Over the centuries, they lost their increased lifespan (at least until Aragorn became king, and lived to be 210);they lost the secret of making Orthanc (which they built, not Saruman); they lost their northern kingdom (whose borders used to include the Shire). The elves didn't do much better, with the loss not only of making items of Power like the rings but also of making things like the palantir.

There's a big problem, though, with trying to compare the development of Middle-Earth to our world. Yes, it includes the orcs; it also includes elves, humans, dwarves, goblins, Dragons, trolls, ogres, and all other sentient beings on ME. That's the crux: our planet has only 1 for-sure 100% measurable sentient species, homo sapiens; ME had at least 5 that were nominally on the side of Light (Elf, Dwarf, Human, Hobbit, Ent), at least 4 on the side of Darkness (Orc, Goblin, Troll, Ogre), plus other species (Dragon, Warg). Not only was their competition between Light and Dark, but also conflict within each camp: goblins hating orcs, goblin/dwarf war over Moria, elf/dwarf conflicts, kinslaying by the Elves in the 1st Age, dragons despoiling everyone, and so on. Throw in some uber-powerful evil beings bent on world domination (Morgoth, Ungoliant, and Sauron), and you're talking about quite a lot of things that can delay technology. Even without the loss of knowledge, and even without the use of magic as a crutch (which, unlike most fantasy settings, magic doesn't seem to be used as much for growing/harvesting crops or building places), you still have the problem that most technology has come out of the need to provide for larger populations: agriculture vs. hunting/gathering, farm machinery vs. hand/animal-drawn plows, trucks and cars vs. handcarts and horse-drawn wagons, steamships vs. sailboats, trains vs. steamships, airplanes vs. trains... each innovation has come about from pressure caused by:
-- needing to get goods to people faster
-- needing to speed up/improve communications
-- needing to provide more food/water for people
-- needing to house more people in a limited land area

Whether due to the presence of orcs and goblins, a slow birthrate (a trait of Elves, Dwarves, to some extent Hobbits, and apparantly Numenorians like Boromir and Aragorn's peoples), too many wasteland or unusable areas, or simply due to draconian population reductions due to all the wars, the peoples of Middle-Earth apparantly never had to deal with the overcrowding found in Europe during the Dark and Middle Ages which not only prompted technological innovation but also the quest to discover new, untapped resources and lands. Would our own technological levels be as advanced at this point had the Americas not been discovered until 1592, thus putting off the need to develop swifter communications? Or if Europe hadn't been so overcrowded, and people less willing to risk a new life in America? IMHO, the answer would be "no"; we'd be lucky to be in the Industrial Age, let alone the very beginnings of the Microcomputer age a la 1970's had there been any lessening in the incentives that spur advancement and technology.

As for the ring being an allegory for the atomic bomb:

1. Tolkien first starting writing the book in letters to his son Christopher during WWII (Chris was with the British Army in Egypt), well before the Allied effort to develop an atomic bomb was made public, and well before the bomb was ever dropped. As they say in movie credits, any similarity to real-world events is merely coincidental.

2. Just like with any novel or movie, the creator is the final word on what any deeper meaning was to be. If Tolkien says the Ring wasn't the atomic bomb, then it wasn't the atomic bomb.

3. To paraphrase, sometimes a Ring of Power is just a Ring of Power. If I wanted to psychoanalyze an author and delve for deeper meaning in literature (i.e. social commentary, decrying of modernistic and technocratic socieities), I'll take a literature class at the local community college and/or get an incredibly boring book from some author like Salinger, Hemingway, or Melville. I read Tolkien's book for entertainment purposes, not for social commentary... and apparantly, Tolkien didn't write it with social commentary on his mind anyway, so anyone looking for deeper meanings than one finds in your everyday legends or Shakespearian play needs to get their head out of their ass, get laid, and go back to reading for fun.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-21 11:13pm

minor pt - weren't the orcs made from corrupted elves, and trolls based on ents? they were designed species, I thot. . .

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2002-12-22 09:04am

I don't think there was any significant decline in technology in ME from the return of the Noldor to the time the last elves left ME. Elves were magical creatures not engineers and their magical abilities are what have been steadily declining until the rings were made to preserve it.

The Edain (Numenoreans) learned most of their exceptional skills from the elves and the gifts of the Valar but what they learned and was given wasn't specs on how to make construction steel and concrete but magic. Orthanc was built of stone, not concrete on a steel frame, and it's construction is impossible to duplicate even today. If you want to build that high with natural materials you end up with a pyramid.

In ME technology was the craft of the enemy, there would have been a huge resistance to explore that tained area beyond the elementary basics needed to keep society running smoothly.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2002-12-22 11:07am

CJvR wrote:I don't think there was any significant decline in technology in ME from the return of the Noldor to the time the last elves left ME. Elves were magical creatures not engineers and their magical abilities are what have been steadily declining until the rings were made to preserve it.

The Edain (Numenoreans) learned most of their exceptional skills from the elves and the gifts of the Valar but what they learned and was given wasn't specs on how to make construction steel and concrete but magic. Orthanc was built of stone, not concrete on a steel frame, and it's construction is impossible to duplicate even today. If you want to build that high with natural materials you end up with a pyramid.

In ME technology was the craft of the enemy, there would have been a huge resistance to explore that tained area beyond the elementary basics needed to keep society running smoothly.

It isnt so much the decline in technology , but the utter lack of any significant advancement.

Stagmentation of anything is caused from no growth of the something, which is normally followed by the decline fo the said something.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-22 03:56pm

i dont see why anyone would equate the ring to technology. If anything, the ring represents the strict control that religious and monarchal tyranny had on the world. When the ring is destroyed, the elves are also leaving Middle Earth. The destruction of the ring would represent the destruction of the strict sociopoliticoeconomic structure that ruled the world up until the mid 20th century when the major countries began becoming truly diverse and technology blossomed. The leaving of the elves would represent the myths and fairy tails of religion departing from our ever growing scientific world where mankind rules supreme not the gods and demigods of ancient times.