The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

[Noble Ire]

The more I look at the issues presented here, I see ..what...6? 8? fans complaining about a number, and they can't even back up the basis of the complaint with plausible evidence that there's been some sort of "mistake."

Evidence? I thought that wasn't allowed?

His definition of evidence (of course evidence is allowed... he never said any different, not once. Speak differently, and you're a slanderous stalker) is vague references to a wide variety of sources, most of which actually dispute the point you're trying to make.

Unfortunately, only he has the knowledge and authority (after all, he is a Mod on a webboard) necessary to set forth evidence, so everyone who opposes him is wrong by default. His logic is flawless.

[Fire Fly]

I take it that the debate on TF.net is pretty much over? Or have the pro-3 million just made a mere tactical retreat until Karen publishes more material for them to use? Given the overwhelming evidence that has been presented, I would have expected a concession by all the pro-3 million several dozens of pages ago.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I take it that the debate on TF.net is pretty much over? Or have the pro-3 million just made a mere tactical retreat until Karen publishes more material for them to use? Given the overwhelming evidence that has been presented, I would have expected a concession by all the pro-3 million several dozens of pages ago.

Hah. If egos were crushable, pride would have diminished.

[Mange]

Here are DM's comments from Feedback (unfortunately the 1,000 character limit is an extremely limiting factor):

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 6&tstart=0

[Noble Ire]

And when it got to it, several of you tried to get outside the box "demanding" people "post proof or retract" or "provide a source or concede".

He makes it sound as if these are utterly foreign and bizzare concepts. Are common sense and the basic precepts of rational debate really that rare on the rest of the internet, or is DM just being the pompous, self-serving petty dictator he always is and trying to deny logic that should be evident to anyone with two neurons to string a charge across?

[Master of Ossus]

Ugh.

The "atmosphere of fear" as you put it is a direct product of the very public amount of extreme hostility surrounding the topic - hostility from posters you know.

Look, none of you are in a vacuum, and we aren't stupid. I locked that thread at that point because, despite my repeated warnings, Darth-Jango decided to take it to the personal level again:

Darth-Jango
Total Posts: 47
Member Since: 12/02

Date Posted: Jun 22, 2006 12:16 PM

It's nice to know that there are SW fans out there who would argue for a galaxy of imbeciles, and the Jedi apparently helping Palpatine to cover up his lame conspiracy.

And I made it clear I wasn't going to tolerate it. You have yourselves to blame, and the thread was serving zero purpose. You had your 15 minutes, you blew it.

All of us moderators remember clearly the level of unwarranted hostility shown in previous topics of the same ilk, some with the same posters - the SSD thread, the ST vs SW thread. The free-ranging flamefests got out of hand quickly.

So I opened that topic with a warning from the beginning - that it would be moderated with a heavy hand. And when it got to it, several of you tried to get outside the box "demanding" people "post proof or retract" or "provide a source or concede". That sort of rude and antagonistic posting style is exactly what generated scads of reports back with those older threads. So I wasn't going to allow the abrasive antagonism, I wasn't going to allow other posters that wanted to participate from being intimidatd by those tactics in the least, and I certainly wasn't going to allow anyone even approaching getting personal. This is not the website you're used to. This is the official site, and we treat each other with respect, and we uphold the rules here. Everyone knows that.

That last comment showed me that we were past the early stages of degeneration - it was going to go downhill and fast. So I yanked the discussion, and no, there won't be another. Having aired out the issue, it was discovered that it was pointless to begin with. We can't tie up a single moderator for a single topic indefinitely, and certainly not for 6 fans with an axe to grind that no one can make sense of.

So it stays locked.

DM out

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont see how that post 'made it personal'.

Yes, if we are to believe KT Jelly's bullshit, the Jedi were conspiring with Palpatine (aka Darth Sidious) to overthrow the Republic by creating a false conflict. And the rest of the galaxy, save for those two Clones in Odds, would have to be rather dense to not notice.

The only thing i can think is that when that other dude said "a galaxy of imbaciles" DarkMoose thought he was talking about someone being an imbacile.

Assuming, of course, he truly believed that was 'making it personal' and he's not just bullshitting.

[Jim Raynor]

This recent thread has given us some of the most damning evidence of Dark Moose's dishonesty yet. He has now REPEATED his stance against posting evidence to back up your claims. Nobody outside of the KT Jelly brigade can possibly read these posts and think of DM as anything other than a trolling coward. This shit was so good I had to add it to my sig.

I know you're reading this too DM, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[Mange]

This recent thread has given us some of the most damning evidence of Dark Moose's dishonesty yet. He has now REPEATED his stance against posting evidence to back up your claims. Nobody outside of the KT Jelly brigade can possibly read these posts and think of DM as anything other than a trolling coward. This shit was so good I had to add it to my sig.

I know you're reading this too DM, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Absolutely. How can anyone reconcile this statement...

I've already laid out rules for this thread that we're not going to make these evidential demands.

... with this statement from the closing post:

...they can't even back up the basis of the complaint with plausible evidence that there's been some sort of "mistake."

[VT-16]

I never really got to answer his snide remarks about the CIS council looking for a place to stay in the Outer Rim "if they had so many factory planets", so I'll do it here:

Dear DM, suggesting the Council relocate to a factory world is moronic, but expected of you. Factories have always been synonymous with big targets during modern wars, and barring any mental retardation would also be eligable for targetting in a SW war as well. Not exactly the best place to put your leadership. Then again, judging from your posting history, you're not exactly the brightest lad and it can't be expected of you to think through your arguments.

PS. I loved how you put up a bunch of random source-names without actually providing quotation from them that supported your view. Demanding others find evidence for you shouldn't come as a big surprise to me, but it did. Then again, it only shows what an inbred retard you really are, and how much you're helping me stop using money on any Lucasfilm-related products. Thanks alot, palmfucker.

[Lord Poe]

Besides Mooseknuckle and Wampa Jedi, who else was on DM's side?

So we had what..."6 or 8" people on our side...

...and he had 2, including himself?

[VT-16]

Pretty much :P

[Sonnenburg]

Look, none of you are in a vacuum, and we aren't stupid. I locked that thread at that point because, despite my repeated warnings, Darth-Jango decided to take it to the personal level again:

Darth-Jango
Total Posts: 47
Member Since: 12/02

Date Posted: Jun 22, 2006 12:16 PM

It's nice to know that there are SW fans out there who would argue for a galaxy of imbeciles, and the Jedi apparently helping Palpatine to cover up his lame conspiracy.

And I made it clear I wasn't going to tolerate it. You have yourselves to blame, and the thread was serving zero purpose. You had your 15 minutes, you blew it.

There are only three possible ways to read this:
Either this guy is so fucking stupid he lacks basic reading comprehension
This guy is obsessed with the fragile emotional lives of fictional characters
He is so desperate to escape this argument without losing he's willing to look like an idiot to do it

[Darth Wong]

I vote that he's clearly just stupid. There's no way anyone could say some of the incredibly lame-assed things that Dork Moose has said without realizing how dumb it looks. A smarter debater would have avoided repeatedly contradicting himself, never mind that comedy gold moment of saying people can no longer demand evidence. He might as well have tattooed "I talk the talk but can't walk the walk" on his forehead.

[Alan Bolte]

It reminds me of that version of Final Fantasy Tactics where they threw in the 'Judge' who would make up arbitrary rules durning combat, regardless of whether they might make the situation impossible.

[Vympel]

What the hell is the purpose of that stupid 1,000 character limit, anyway? Mods are clearly not limited by it, yet regular posters seem to be. Is this to perpetuate the standard of discourse they want at that forum- just saying "omg you're so awesome, I love Star Wars word peace out!" in a million different variations? That earlier comment about starwars.com being in general a shitty website according to others in the industry rings true.

[Jim Raynor]

It's fucking retarded. It won't stop anyone who has more to say from posting several times in a row, and all it does is inflate post counts. Several times I had to make three or four posts when I would have otherwise only made one. But you're right, it's not a problem for most of their one-line "me too" asskisser posts.

[Mange]

What the hell is the purpose of that stupid 1,000 character limit, anyway? Mods are clearly not limited by it, yet regular posters seem to be. Is this to perpetuate the standard of discourse they want at that forum- just saying "omg you're so awesome, I love Star Wars word peace out!" in a million different variations? That earlier comment about starwars.com being in general a shitty website according to others in the industry rings true.

Yes, administrators, moderators and VIPs are excluded from the 1,000 character limit. What's annoying is that you have to write and paste your posts in advance so that people (hopefully) won't post inbetween.

DM's arguments boils down to the two main claims, which totally lacks canon support, that Traviss and DM himself have formulated in blogs etc.:

* Palpatine controlled every aspect of the Clone Wars. The media was entirely controlled by Palpatine etc.

* The Clone Wars was a limited conflict. To quote Traviss: "It was small scale, very mobile, spread out and bushfire as much as anything."

[Darth Wong]

What the hell is the purpose of that stupid 1,000 character limit, anyway? Mods are clearly not limited by it, yet regular posters seem to be. Is this to perpetuate the standard of discourse they want at that forum- just saying "omg you're so awesome, I love Star Wars word peace out!" in a million different variations? That earlier comment about starwars.com being in general a shitty website according to others in the industry rings true.

Absolutely. The 1000-character post limit is one of the reasons I gave up on that forum. It may be the official forum but it's run like shit. If they're worried about database size, they'd be better off investing in large servers or auto-pruning old discussions than forcing everyone to limit their sentiments to about the length of a Hallmark card, which seems to be the only kind of comment they want.

[Lord Poe]

This is hilarious, but also quite relevant. It's one of those "secret traps" the mods use over there to penalize you: posting too many times in a row:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 0&tstart=0

Right, here's the break-down:

I banned you because of your posting habits, since they tend be extremely spam-like in nature. You've been treating the forums like an IM conversation, posting multiple one or two line messages just minutes after each other, all in the same topic. (In one instance, you posted 7 short messages in ten minutes. That's too many too soon.)

The boards here allow you 1,000 characters a post, and an entire hour to edit -- you could easily fit the majority of your messages into one post, or edit them in soon after. (If your reply is 1,000+ characters, then it'd be fine to post as many messages needed to cover your point.)

Now, I'll unlock you if you promise to change these tendencies, and post more 'compactly.' Do we have an accord?

yes i will accept and i will be more respnodsable

i promise

Posting two one line messages within a minute of each other isn't the most convincing proof that you understand the point I'm trying to impress upon you.

Does anyone get the feeling that these mods have S&M sexual fantasies where posters must beg and plead properly to be allowed to continue posting?

After reading some very twisted McEwok fanfic, and the very existence of "Furry Conflict", I'm not too sure I'd want to associate with these "other" Star Wars fans who are "better" than ol' Talifan me.

[Jim Raynor]

After reading some very twisted McEwok fanfic

I know I'm probably going to regret asking about this, but I'm morbidly curious. Can you provide some of the gory details?

[VT-16]

McEwok fanfic

I've heard of these, how groan-enducing is his writing? :P

[Mange]

Alright, this is amusing. According to Dark Moose, I'm one of "few posters" that are "aggressive" and I was "harassing posters" to "post proof or concede":

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 0&tstart=0

I feel insulted. I can't for the life of me understand how it's "aggressive" and "harassing" to ask people to back up claims. And how the hell can such a person be a moderator at the Official Forums? Does Lucasfilm want to lose my money?



EDIT: The "poster" he referred to is he himself. I had showed, with backing from the ROTS novelization (George Lucas introduction to Shatterpoint was added to this later) that the Jedi Council was in control of the Grand Army during the Clone Wars. Dark Moose ignored this, saying things such as: "Obviously, the GAR never actually answered to the Jedi." which is when I asked him to back it up.

[Surlethe]

I feel a strange desire to go over there and be overly polite to Dark Moose as I demolish his bullshit claims, evading his flame-baiting, and laughing as he grinds his teeth knowing that I'm not doing anything he can use to ban me. That would be even more insidiously annoying to him, I think, than constantly arguing with tersely tenacious opponents of the 3 million number. Of course, it runs into several problems: if I let on that I'm me, he might ban me for things I've said over here; or, he might manufacture something to ban me; and, he's indicated that the discussion over there is pretty much done, so any further threads will probably be locked.

[Edi]

He'd just make some trumped up excuse to lock the thread or just outright edit your posts to say things you never typed to frame you to look like a troll. He's done shit like that in the past.

Edi