Christian Democratic Parties

[Battlehymn Republic]

Thisideology fascinates me.

How does it compare to U.S.-styled Christian conservatism? How is it faring? It seems like it may be dying out, but that's could just be the general perception of the decline of religion in Europe.

Christian Democracy seems to me basically taking your typical economically-leftist party, say Labour in the U.K., and replacing the secular humanism with Christianity. And they don't seem to kick up as much of a fuss on abortion and gay marriages. Are they seen as fundies in the Old World and Latin America?

[Lord Zentei]

Leftist economics with Christian moral ideology: the worst of both worlds.

[Patrick Degan]

Basically, Christian Democratic parties are a holdover from the late 19th-early 20th centuries and arose as a more "moral" leftist alternative to Marxism.

[Pablo Sanchez]

How does it compare to U.S.-styled Christian conservatism? How is it faring? It seems like it may be dying out, but that's could just be the general perception of the decline of religion in Europe.

Dying out? The current ruling coalition in Germany is based on the nation's two Christian Democratic parties.

Christian Democracy seems to me basically taking your typical economically-leftist party, say Labour in the U.K., and replacing the secular humanism with Christianity.

Christian Democracy is not necessarily leftist; from the above German example, Chancellor Angela Merkel's party is right of center on economic issues (although the other half of her coalition, the Bavarian CSU is apparently more liberal). You're probably thinking of Christian Socialism in this context.

And they don't seem to kick up as much of a fuss on abortion and gay marriages.

That depends entirely on the situation in which they exist. In a place where abortion and gay marriage aren't huge issues, naturally they wouldn't kick up much a fuss. But again, with the far-left Christian Socialism, moralism does often take a backseat to the economic aims of the party--think of it as being in a sequence. It's inefficient for a government to legislate the behavior of its citizens if they are in a difficult situation; you can't legislate crime away if people are starving. Therefore, you deal with your economic system first and your moral/social system second.

Are they seen as fundies in the Old World and Latin America?

I wouldn't know.

[Lord Zentei]

Christian Democracy is not necessarily leftist; from the above German example, Chancellor Angela Merkel's party is right of center on economic issues (although the other half of her coalition, the Bavarian CSU is apparently more liberal).

Well, the current European variants are not really economically left-wing however much the ideology may have been so at one point.

[Prozac the Robert]

Leftist economics with Christian moral ideology: the worst of both worlds.

Depends how left I supose, but left isn't automatically worse than right. And the European versions tend to have less ridiculus versions of christian morality than republicans in the US anyway.

[Surlethe]

Christianity is actually supposed to be socialist; if one considers the structure of the church described in the early chapters of Acts, as well as Jesus' teachings regarding giving to the poor ("It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven", e.g.), it becomes evident that Jesus was envisioning religion leavening social classes. Eventually -- by Acts -- it turned into a system where one gave one's resources to the church authorities, who, in turn, redistributed them according to need. As I recall, there's actually a little story buried somewhere in Acts about the Apostle Paul calling divine wrath down on a couple who refused to give everything to the church and kept some for themselves.

[Darth Wong]

It's pretty sad that people actually find socialism and Christianity to be an odd combination, when anyone who had actually bothered reading the Gospels would know that Jesus was a hardcore socialist at heart.

[Gil Hamilton]

I still wish we hadn't banned Tharkun so he could come in here and tell us about what a good Republican Jesus was.

[Surlethe]

It's pretty sad that people actually find socialism and Christianity to be an odd combination, when anyone who had actually bothered reading the Gospels would know that Jesus was a hardcore socialist at heart.

It's just another reason to question the honesty of neoconservatives: where in the Gospels does it say, "Thy neighbor is poor because he deserves it, so take his money and fuck him over"?

[Darth Wong]

I still wish we hadn't banned Tharkun so he could come in here and tell us about what a good Republican Jesus was.

He would just use the same bullshit line that they all use: that Jesus told people to do it, not governments. As if people who believed fervently in helping the poor would vote to fuck them over.

tharkun was pretty good at reliably spouting the Republican party line, but it's not as if it's hard to find out what that party line is.

[Spacebeard]

It's pretty sad that people actually find socialism and Christianity to be an odd combination, when anyone who had actually bothered reading the Gospels would know that Jesus was a hardcore socialist at heart.

It's just another reason to question the honesty of neoconservatives: where in the Gospels does it say, "Thy neighbor is poor because he deserves it, so take his money and fuck him over"?

It's in the Gospel of Supply-Side Jesus, of course.

There's a good collection of Bible verses on the poor here. How many fundies ever acknowledge that God declares Sodom was destroyed because they "did not help the poor and needy", instead of fixating on the "that we may know them" line?

[mr friendly guy]

I would have thought the concepts of "Christianity" and "Democracy" are contradictory.

[Battlehymn Republic]

No more than "Islamic" and "Republic", I suppose.

Seriously, though, are there any Europeans or Latin Americans on this board who know anything about the CDPs in their nations?

[Lord Zentei]

Leftist economics with Christian moral ideology: the worst of both worlds.

Depends how left I supose, but left isn't automatically worse than right. And the European versions tend to have less ridiculus versions of christian morality than republicans in the US anyway.

It is if it is radical leftism, though I'l agree that this is not relevant to the current incarnations of Christian Democrats in Europe. And yes, the Christians in Europe are far, far less certifiable than the US fundie ones. That's not too hard, you know.

It's pretty sad that people actually find socialism and Christianity to be an odd combination, when anyone who had actually bothered reading the Gospels would know that Jesus was a hardcore socialist at heart.

I stand by the claim that combining radical leftist economic policies and Chrisitan morality are the "worst of both worlds" (the second world being conservatism). Jesus was a nutcase.

[outcast]

No more than "Islamic" and "Republic", I suppose.

Seriously, though, are there any Europeans or Latin Americans on this board who know anything about the CDPs in their nations?

The current biggest political party in the Netherlands is the CDA, which are Christian democrats, which is largely the reason why our policies in the last few years have been leaning towards a more conservative area. (note: conservative by dutch standards)

The CDA supports the right of abortion but at the same time wants to reduce the number of abortions.

The CDA supports the coalition mission in Afghanistan (and iraq, though no troops are scheduled to return there)

The CDA states it doesn't wish to block genetic modification research but urges research into 'alternatives' (which alternatives it doesn't state)

The CDA opposes the decriminalized drugs policies of the country.

The CDA supports the expansion of the EU.

The CDA opposes the legalization of euthanasia in the country.

The CDA opposes sexual and violent images/themes on television and media in general.

The CDA supports the national ID (in contrast to american christians i understand)

The CDA supports the continued operation of nuclear power plants, and the possible future construction of new plants.

The CDA supports putting more than one prisoner on one cell.

The CDA supports placing minimum penalties on crimes (the dutch judicial system only knows maximum penalties)

The CDA openly states the privacy of individuals does not override security concerns.

The CDA opposes referendums on important issues.



I disagree with virtually everything except the nuclear power plant issue.

Fortunately they had to form a coalition with the VVD and D66. (respectively rightwing liberals and social liberals)

[Bounty]

No more than "Islamic" and "Republic", I suppose.

Seriously, though, are there any Europeans or Latin Americans on this board who know anything about the CDPs in their nations?

CD&V (Christian-Democrat and Flemish) was the ruling party through most of the 20th century. They are completely middle-of-the-road in European terms (so far-left from a US perspective). Their social policies are moderate-consevative (they opposed legalised euthanasia and had reservations about gay marriage; however, it was under a christian cabinet that abortion was legalised). Economically they're centrist, believing that an economy works best when workers are protected but they have been pushing to lessen taxes on employers. The rest of their program is the standard feely-goody nonsense: cheap daycare, citizens should know their rights and duties, skateramps for teens, expanding the rail network, yadda yadda.

Also note that the party's "moral" standpoints are based on moderate Catholicism with places less emphasis on state-enforced morality. They don't have any serious censorship-related viewpoints and they don't mention christianity as anything other then an inspiration (in fact, I'm not even sure the party leadership is actively christian. Religious leaning are generally kept private).

[Bounty]

Addendum :

It seems like it may be dying out, but that's could just be the general perception of the decline of religion in Europe.

It's not. Well, religion is dying out, but the Christian-Democrats are not that deeply tied into religion. At one point the CD&V even considered dropping the "Christian" part of their name.

[Thinkmarble]

Well, the highest profile christian party is the CDU/CSU in germany.
Conservative fuckers the lot of them.
They opposed the legalisation of abortions during the first three month (and were successfull in that), they oppose(d) equal rights for homosexuals , they opposed the introduction of jus soli (which we still dont really have), and used that to stroke hatred to win the election in Hessen, they fucked over germany in the unification process by going for the political expedient instead for the economic sensible to secure they 1990 election, they are corrupt till the core having maintained a system of black accounts to fiance their party for decades, most involved never faced consequences, they are in favour of dismantling worker protections as well as social security.
They CSU got dragged befor the constitutional court for them forcing every school hanging crosses in every class room, that was 1995 and the crosses are still hanging (now no longer being ordainded from above), and the CDU passed a law in Hessen which would have made it illegal to wear headscarfes in school while permitting nuns to teach in habitat.

[Talanth]

I'm not sure I understand some of the coments here about left wing parties. I understand being oposed to any form of extreemist atitude; but against left wing attitudes as a whole?

[Surlethe]

I'm not sure I understand some of the coments here about left wing parties. I understand being oposed to any form of extreemist atitude; but against left wing attitudes as a whole?

I thought this thread was slamming right-wing social policies mixed with left-wing economic ideas? The animosity is generally toward the conservative social ideas because they tend to curtail rights.

[Talanth]

Ah, I see. I misunderstood. I thought they were talking about left-wing policies as a whole. I personly tend to agree with left wing 'rights of the worker' style social isues.

[K. A. Pital]

How many fundies ever acknowledge that God declares Sodom was destroyed because they "did not help the poor and needy"

Virtually none. Because, you know, it kinda ruins the whole "GOD GIVE ME PROSPERITY DAMMIT" cause and "CHURCHES SHOULD BE RICH BECAUSE THEY SERVE THE LOOORDH!!!"

[K. A. Pital]

On a side note, I oppose Christianity as any honest left-winger should, because socialism is really about helping people in this world and not wasting scarce and precious resources on blessing imaginary creatures.