Death Star I vs. B5 Powers

[Master of Ossus]

An ISD by itself can prevent ANY survivors from escaping a world. If the Vorlons are as powerful as ISDs, their fleet should have EASILY been able to prevent anyone from escaping, even with a small escort.

Are you saying that the Shadows Planet Killer was orders of magnitude less powerful than the Vorlon Planet Killer, because that is the only way the Shadow target was merely cratered while the Vorlon target was completely destroyed? If the Vorlons were so much more powerful than the Shadows, why wouldn't the Shadows have collapsed long before while fighting the Vorlons?

You ignored my point about atmospheric craft. Why would they be necessary if the planet was already destroyed?

Your point about the survivors is possible, but if the Vorlons were attempting to destroy everyone who was touched by the Shadows (Lando) they should have terminated all outbound traffic. Their fleet was far larger than the combined fleet of the Younger Races, less the First Ones they later gained the help of, and their ships are significantly more powerful than the Younger Races' ships. The Vorlons should have been able to engage the outbound traffic before it had a chance to escape, particularly since engagement is possible even after a ship enters hyperspace.

[Durandal]

I should probably clarify something. Heat doesn't exist as particles; in fact, it really doesn't exist at all. Heating something does not mean that an object has a certain amount of heat.

Energy is different. Energy exists in many forms, and one way to inject energy into something is to heat it, or perform work on it. So, when I said that heat exists as particles, I was incorrect.

However, in the context of Shadow vessels "converting heat into particles," I was semi-correct ... sort of. If the Shadows wanted to redirect heat into hyperspace, they would have to redirect the photons into hyperspace, since those are the things doing the work on the Shadow vessel. Although, when energy is being generated with imaginary masses, there could be heat-imparting particles being given off that we know nothing about.

[adam warlock]

Why not? Entire cities have been declared as "gone," yet do we mean they've been accelerated to escape velocity? How do we know that the Vorlons didn't achieve the required energy, but managed to reduce the planet to a giant blob of fragments still gravitationally bound together?

how about describing the planet as being "not there anymore"..
so all life on the planet has been wiped out.. but the planet is stil there..
that doesnt mean that its "not there anymore"..

giant blobs of fragments..
then shouldnt ivanova at least mention that theres a field of debris around where the planet resided in..
but nope there wasnt
whats more she did ask for c&c to find anything unsual.. if there was a giant blob of fragments still floating around where the planet was, it shouldve at least been mentioned.

And the planet may have been described as "gone" because it was unrecognizable.

no one said it was "gone".. they simply said that "its not there anymore". "the base?". "no. the entire planet."
how can that be taken to mean as the planet still being there, albeit a bit damaged and with no life.

So, where did the planet go? Why does "gone" mean "accelerated to escape velocity," rather than "vaporized," or "disintegrated"?

again they didnt say "gone".. the exact words were "its not there anymore".

That's the most inefficient way to do things. They hit the planet, and then waste all their time running around picking up all the pieces? If the refugees had all escaped via starships, then they could go wherever they wanted. Why go to the place that the Vorlons would be most likely to strike next?

the question was not about efficiency. but about vorlons being thorough enough to chase after those that escaped the previous attacks.

So, they had the brilliant idea to go to camps with concentrations of survivors from attacks that were supposed to wipe everyone out, not even considering that the Vorlons may come back to finish what they started? Is everyone in B5 completely stupid?

the vorlons didnt come back to where they were, they went after those who escaped the previous attacks.
secondly no one knew that the vorlons where gonna be that extreme in their campaign
once the vorlons were after them those people could do little but wait around and hope they find a place where the vorlons wont follow them.. theyre not stupid for camping with people who were stuck in the same boat as they are.. and it matters little whether or not they did..the vorlons are after all of them.(well the vorlons did leave them & everyone else alone in the end)

They obviously left in a timely enough fashion to avoid being destroyed, according to you.

depends on how capable the target population are of determining vorlon attack, the people at ventradi iii, were obviously capable enough to determine that the vorlons would target their planet (and them), and escaped before the vorlons got there..

But they could already handle the numbers. How do you think they got there? Did refugees just appear out of nowhere?

im not saying they couldnt handle the numbers.. but they needed to evacuate quicker because of unexpected attacks made by vorlons on refugee havens... having more ships would afford the refugees the ability to rush out.

No, we know that Shadow vessels were kept on the ground.

maybe on the ground on centauri prime, but shadow ships were find buried in mars, and ganymede, as shown and said in "messages from earth", and there no reason why the shadows couldnt bury their ships elsewhere.

You're making this more complex than it needs to be. "OK everyone, get on the ship you came in on!" Problem solved.

the evacuation process would be speeded up in case of an unexpected attack.

Which means that the survivors were on the surface because they didn't have ships of their own to escape with.

no.. there couldve been no survivors on the planets that have been attacked, and the refugee stations could still be congested.

And JMS is referring to tactical and strategic mobility, just like I was.

opening jump points inside, within large facilities can be considered part of tactical mobility..

You still haven't explained how this equates to proof of ability.

because the "what if" was never on the ability to open a jump point in a star, but on using it to make the sun nova earlier than predicted.

Because they have a finite number of missiles with which to accomplish the job of destroying a planet.

the shadows fired upon a planet for 12 odd hours, season 4 "the long" night, and one salvo, detected by that one probe ericcson launched, consisted of thousands of missles.. are you saying that the shadows cant spare a few thousand missles that can be launched in 1-2 salvoes to get rid of th yr.

even if we take a few thousand missles to be 2,000, how many missles would the spk have producd during 12 hours.

There is no evidence that the Shadows wanted to kill everyone with Vorlon influence, only the other way around. I'm not going to run around with you and discuss Shadow incompetence, but the fact remains that the Shadows obviously wanted White Star 1 turned into atoms or its whole crew destroyed. Therefore, it's clear that they'd just drain all the energy that they could from it.

then they cannot be that selective with the heat/energy drain capability..i.e. they cant drain heat/energy from sheridens ships without affecting all, or the large majority of the ships around it.

It also shows a Vorlon ship being severely damaged, if not destroyed or maimed, by the blast.

the fighter that seemed to have flew the closest to the bomb, as it exploded, was one that entered view 2inches down from the top of my 15inch screen.. there were no indications of how they damaged this fighter suffered...it just continued flying through.

quote:
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im well aware of of heat/energy being in the form of photons of certain frequencies.
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No, you're obviously not. Otherwise, you wouldn't have made it look like you thought that heat existed in a form other than particles.

pardon me.. but photons can be classed as particles..particles with zero rest mass consisting of a quantum of electromagnetic radiation. they are also classed as bosonic particles, i.e. particles that do not obey the Pauli Exclusion Principle, i.e. that can occupy the same quantum state as the same particle already in that state.

Furthermore, energy doesn't exist in the form of particles. It exists in the form of motion, mass, gravitational potential, et cetera. Photons impart energy, but they are not energy themselves. Saying that an object has 30J of kinetic energy has no bearing on the number of photons in it.

(delta)E = (delta)M x c^2

energy can exist, and be converted, in the form of particles..and vice versa
the formation of neutrinuos, for example, accounted for the missing energy detected in beta decay.

Big deal. We can create nuclear reactors that split atoms, does that mean that we personally possess this ability?

the point is that shadows can create these devices that the do the convert energy into matter..
even we can do it now using particle accelerators.. where some of the kinetic energy in the collision goes into creating new particles.. we cannot however build up further on this by collecting the created particles, and assemble them into matter we can associate with in our daily life, eg. can opener, or walking stick.
technomages can do that.

So, naturally, they'd drain the energy from White Star 1 as quickly as possibly. Thank you for proving my point.

or that they cant do that without affecting all the other ships surrounding them.

So, they were going to drain everyone's energy in such a way that everyone would die at the same time, but they only wanted to kill Sheridan? That's absurd.

i never claimed they wanted to kill everyone in that particular scene.

But you are making a firm judgment. You're saying that the energy dissipation rate of the Death Cloud must exceed the energy production rate of the Death Star with absolutely no evidence.

i suppose i did say that earlier, but now im saying that we have far too little information on the matter to decide either way.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, though, the Shadows were not above killing everyone to kill one person, unless they were morally superior to the Vorlons. Remember that the Vorlons were going to kill BILLIONS on Centauri Prime because they wanted to kill Lando.

[adam warlock]

So, why was this marvelous tactic never used against the Shadows? The White Stars can open jump points wherever they wish, so you'd think that they'd be perfect candidates for such a maneuver.

Furthermore, how does "anything vital" become "solid objects and imaginary masses"? Furthermore, he says "on top of," not "in."

why not use them against the shadows?..
shadow ships, despite their size, are just as maneuverable as whitestars..they can quickly maneuver out of they way.

anything vital?..
why couldnt it mean anything other than solid objects
for example space.
why construct detectors to prevent them forming on top, or in space.. when theres no real danger of them moving within it
hyperspace.. same thing.
atmosphere... well we all know from "messages from earth,", and "endgame" that jumppoints can be opened in atmospheres..

Evidence?

technomage trilogy..

"Galen knew he wouldn't get deep enough. The bombs were too powerful. But what other shelter was there? The Shadow skin was strong, but not strong enough. Galen wondered if he could conjure a second layer of it. As the thought occurred to him, a second layer of blackness flowed out over him and Morden. Then he knew what he must do. Another layer, and another, and another."

galen created layers and layers of shadow armour around him to protect him from the destruction being caused by those 2 x 500mt bombs on sheridens whitestars.

"The bluish surface was still solid, yet he could see now that it was made up of tiny threads of energy. They were woven together, warp, so tightly as to leave no opening. The strength and elegance of it, the simplicity, awed him."
Description of Isabelle's 'Solid Shield'
Technomage Book 1
page 61

How did you come to that conclusion? What is the maximum extent of their "abilities"? How did you quantify it?

from the fact that the shadows can create beings, or mechanisms which these beings operate, that do it.. and that the shadows can use hyperspace..

and as i said.. the maximum extent of these abilites is not shown, nor did i quantify it.

Because they don't have the abilities you've ascribed to them.

which ones.. shadows using hyperspace, or energy/matter conversion.

Either. B5Wars makes it clear that it's more difficult to hit phased Shadow vessels, but they can still be hit.

no it says that they are less likely to hit.
here it is

Half Phasing as described in B5Wars Rules Compendium Pg. 238 (regarded as canon by JMS) says:

Quote: "The maneuver referred to as half-phasing temporarily shunts a Shadow ship partially into hyperspace, making enemy weapons more likely to miss."

Effects:
-Shadow ships defense ratings are improved against ballistic weapons and also other kinds of weapons.
-Shadow ships suffers penalty to any weapons that fire that turn (making it hard to fire its weapons while half phased, but it is possible to do)
-Shadow ship cannot use vortex disruptors while half-phasing, nor can it launch or recover fighters.
-While half-phasing, the Shadow ship cannot be rammed, nor may it ram, unless the other unit is itself half-phasing. If the half-phased ship enters a hex containing a solid object such as an enormous unit, asteriod, or planetary surface, it passes through unharmed, so long as it ends the turn in open space.

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If it ends up in the same hex as the solid object, it is forcibly thrust into hyperspace (or normal space if it is already in hyperspace) with such force as to destroy itself without damaging or affecting the object it appeared within.
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what is the solid object.. a planet, an planetoid, a ship, a starfury, a particle cms in dimensions or smaller..
if its a star or planet, i can well understand why ONE jumppoint would do little or nothing to affect it.
and the above description looks more like for ships coming out of hyperspace.. rather than jumppoints themselves..
i.e. " it is forcibly thrust into hyperspace...with such force as to destroy itself without damaging or affecting the object it appeared within.".. what the??.. an EXIT jump point is thrust back into itself, or the entrance point in hyperspace.. and is destroyed?..

its safe to say that they mean that the ships using the jump point would be destroyed.. it still doesnt mean that jump points cannot be formed within solid objects.. just merely pointing out that it would be suicidal for the ship performing the manuver..

So, you took the phasing ability from B5Wars and either didn't read the entire section on it, or you simply ignored the rest, hoping that no one else owned or had access to the rulebooks so you could pump this ability up all you wanted. Are all B5ers this dishonest?

again tell me what they mean by solid object... all solid objects, including shuttles, starfuries, space dust?..or just large objects like planetry bodies.. even then the above quote is for the ship using the jump point.. not the jump point itself.

So, the Drakh knew exactly how to pilot the Death Cloud and how to use it, but they couldn't figure out which switch to flip for "Energy Drain"? Do you have any idea how pathetic you look? Perhaps the Death Cloud simply couldn't drain the energy being pumped into it by the Excalibur.

the fact is that they didnt use that ability when they could have (as the shadows did at corianna). esp since the ships used were no bigger, or more powerful than the ones at corianna6. This does point to their lack of knowlegde to use the cloud, or create the cloud, in the way that will enable them to do so.

[adam warlock]

It's a pity that they need atmospheric shuttles to evacuate the survivors from another attack, as shown in the following quote.

and your reasoning is?..even if we say that the planets the refugees used as stations werent destroyed, this means that they destroyed one planet, but did not destroy another... does this therefore this mean theyre incapable of destroying a planet?...

Right, so the planet was still there _after_ the attack.

and where did it say that?.. after ivanova stated they lost 3 planets/refugee stations.

So what? I can target a mosquito with a handgun. That doesn't mean that I can hit it.

??.. are you saying that the manuverability of a death star is akin to a mosquito, and that of a shadow ship is a bullet?...

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super advanced humans that have perhaps reached near vorlon level tech.
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So?

this is deathstar vs (all)b5 right?

Or against something like the Vorlon Planet Killer. It's a pity they didn't use this miraculous ability there.

i wonder why that is?.. could it be because the vorlons themselves were so knowledgeable with b5 hyperspace that the yr race dare not used that particular tactic.. even the shadows didnt opt for that.. or could it also be because they had the other firstones to destroy the planet killer for them.

In one shot it outputs as much energy as our sun does in 7,000 years. The Death Cloud needs to be able to fly into a star to equal the amount of energy the DS can produce.

what does flying into the star have to do with producing energy.
unless u mean absorbing, redirecting, or converting that energy

since when does did the process of phasing in to,
Care to finish the sentence?

since when did the process of phasing, have anything to do with thermodynamics?
...although thermodynamics will be involved with regards to heat transfers that will occur in opening jump points or phasing into hyperspace in normal situations...whether its in/around the jump point itself, or inside the ship producing it.

[adam warlock]

Actually, though, the Shadows were not above killing everyone to kill one person, unless they were morally superior to the Vorlons. Remember that the Vorlons were going to kill BILLIONS on Centauri Prime because they wanted to kill Lando.

true..
but the centauri were influenced by the shadows..

anyway this is my last post on this matter.

i conceed..

not for any reason than boredom with the topic... im not even debating my favourite universe.. but then would anyone debate marvel universe vs sw, or b5..

[AdmiralKanos]

After being asked to check out some of these posts, I would like to submit that Occam's Razor seems to have been thrown out the window. There appear to be two main points of contention in this thread:

1) Does a VPK physically and permanently disassemble a planet, as opposed to "destroying" it in the military sense?

2) Can a SPK soak up DS1-level energy and in so doing, disable the DS?

Regarding issue #1, let us consider the facts. We hear dialogue saying that a planet has been "destroyed" and is "gone" after a VPK attack. We also hear dialogue mentioning survivors and asking for airlift evac. The most obvious theory which fits both of these facts is that the planet was "destroyed" or "gone" only in the military sense, hence the fact that some people survived. A competing theory holds that survivors fled the planet, went to special sanctuary worlds not too far away, discarded the starships they used for this trip, and then came under attack again, hence the need for airlift evac. This second theory adds at least two extra terms to the equation: sanctuaries for VPK attack survivors, and starships they used to get there (and which mysteriously disappeared afterwards). Both theories fit the facts (since dialogue inherently has multiple possible interpretations), but theory #2 contains two extra terms. Therefore, theory #2 is an irrational theory (ie- violates the logical principle of parsimony).

Regarding issue #2, let us consider the facts. We know that a SPK can drain energy from starships somehow. We know that the rate of this drain is sufficient to cool the interior of a starship down by 20 or 30 degrees after a few minutes. We also know that a planet attacked by a SPK was said to be unusually cool (by a computer which curiously described it in qualitative terms, ie- no numbers), but we observed that surface temperatures were still in the habitable range, thus limiting the amount of energy removed. And finally, we know that Sheridan's ship was able to fire its weapons inside the death cloud (from "A Call to Arms"). In other words, we have no evidence that the SPK can drain energy in astronomically large rates or quantities, or even at sufficient rates to disable the relatively puny weapons of EA starships. The most straightforward theory holds that the SPK obeys the laws of thermodynamics and has mundane limits commensurate to observations as well as its limited design requirements, therefore it can't possibly handle DS-level power. Theory #2 holds that the SPK violates the laws of thermodynamics by "shunting" power into another dimension, that it can do so at a rate many orders of magnitude greater than anything necessary for fulfillment of its design goals, and that it was not using its full energy-draining power against Sheridan's army of light or Sheridan's ship in the latter incident, even though its survival was threatened. Theory #2 adds an extra term to the equation (this hyperspace "shunt") which is not necessary to explain our observations, and it also asks us to accept actions which do not appear to fit any conceivable motives (even self-preservation) on the part of the SPK's operators and designers. Therefore, theory #2 is irrational.

In both cases, the more complex theory is advanced with preferred dialogue interpretations and/or the "you can't prove it's wrong" defense, and I think it's just sad when someone has to use the same defense that people use for theology or the existence of deities.

PS. I detest Trekkie-style pseudoscience, and this "hyperspace shunt" idea is as bad as any Trekkie-style pseudoscience I have ever encountered. The classic "use technobabble to evade the laws of physics rather than rationalizing observations with them" trick is the dead giveaway. Even a device which merely redirects energy still has limits, even in theory (see Second Law of Thermodynamics), but it's quite obvious from the tone of this thread that it is viewed as an "escape clause". Moreover, heat exchangers of all kinds must temporarily contain the energy as part of the process of moving it somewhere else, so the "dump into hyperspace" trick does not necessarily eliminate the requirement to deal with the energy. Even a reflecting mirror (which need not process the energy it redirects, unlike a heat exchanger) is not 100% efficient, and can only handle a limited amount of energy.

I am sad to say that after inspecting this thread, it would appear that rabid B5ers have acquired some sort of "keeping up with the Joneses" attitude about planet-killers. A VPK is a devastating weapon, most likely capable of firepower in the range of hundreds of millions of megatons. But that apparently isn't enough, because they obviously want to achieve parity with sci-fi series such as Star Wars and any other series with a true planet-destroyer. I don't see why; it doesn't bother me that LEXX (for example) has a vastly greater firepower/size ratio than the Death Star, or that there are tons of sci-fi books out there with even more powerful uber-ships. Why should it? Is there some psychological inadequacy phenomenon involved here?

[Crown]

To adam worlock

Sorry adam however I think that you are wrong about the Eye...

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So much for the Eye's uber ability. And before anyone tries to say that it was busy doing something else, I will just like to say too busy to notice that a Vorlon ship, their arch enemies, was in close proximity to their home?

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perhaps its the fact thats its a vorlon ship, and that it has a vorlon aboard, that made it capable of being undetected by the eye.

we know the vorlons had plenty of experience, and dealings, with shadows.. its likely that they can overcome/counter the eyes detection..
but if i read correctly. during this time the eye was disabled by galen, which enabled sheridens whitestar to crash into the shadow base.

we do know that the range of the eye can span lightyears, as shown in the episode "walkabout".

Galen was not busy with the Eye, he stayed in the Za'Ha'Dum system when the Vorlon ship showed up, and he had a conversation wiht Ulkesh, now when he came closer to Za'Ha'Dum only then did the Eye challenge him.

I know that my point is pretty trivial to all the other one's being made, however we have cannon evidence showing that he Eye is fallible.

[XaLEv]

The reason Sheridan was able to crash the White Star into the planet was not because the Eye was disabled, but rather because Sheridan's ship was programmed to follow that attack plan once he signaled it. The Eye can only affect living people, and not starships.

No, the White Star WAS able to crash into Z'ha'dum because the Eye was disabled.


Invoking Darkness, pages 312 - 314

A sensation intruded--far above, movement. The force of his will fell upon it. The White Star. It had begun its descent. It carried elements of Vorlon technology. It was an atrocity. It was a threat to their home, and he must destroy it.
A target, at last, for the brilliant orb that he had become, for the blazing web of his malice. In war those unfit were exterminated. In war he was victorious, and through war true perfection would be realized. The thrill bloomed through him.
He tried to force the Eye's attention away, but he could not avert his gaze. He could not allow the ship to pass. Even as he struggled to do so, he directed the weapons platforms in orbit to lock on to this target.
.....
In a second the White Star would be at optimum distance from the weapons platforms, and he would direct them to fire. He narrowed his focus. At the end of the dark, suffocating tunnel of his control, he visualized a blank screen.
.....
The White star reached optimum distance, and as one, tye Eye turned away.

Here, Galen has subverted the Eye and allowed the White Star to pass unharmed.

[consequences]

Bottom line, warlock has proved with his own quotes that shadow ships will be unable to penetrate the death star while phased. The ship can still be targetted, which means that the ridiculous numbers of cannons designed to kill capital ships will have clear shots, and the volume of fire will make up for any misses that the half phased state causes. If the shadow ship somehow makes it through, it will simply be forced into hyperspace with damage, because the death star certainly qualifies as a solid object. These facts, and the application of Occam's razor to the shadow planet killer, completely remove the threat value of the entire shadow fleet at any distance from Zha'dum. As far as Vorlon telepathy goes, if they could control minds signifigantly during a major space battle, they certainly would have done so to reduce the their own losses. We did not even see evidence of the vorlons using the jamming that the younger races successfully implemented against shadow ships, which means that they are potentially not as powerful as younger race telepaths, or else they are to stupid to even try to use their full abilities when fighting to the death. The writing in Babylon 5 Wars indicates stupidity by the way. This post is probably pointless, but i had to give logic a try before resorting to gratuitous violence to get the point across to warlock.

[Mechwolf]

Concerning the VP-K destroying worlds as opposed to , for lack of a better word, sterlizing them.

Adam Warlock provided canon source proof that the Vorlons turned a planet in to ash , similar to what the DS did to Alderaan. Now some of you are saying that if this is the case why is Ivonova calling for more Evac ships? That is because, as Adam has stated & proved, that these Evac ships were to go to the worlds that had been accepting refugees from the destroyed worlds to expedite the re-evacuation from the once "safe-havens". Now some of you are saying why didn't the refugees just use the ships that they got to the safe-havens in? Because the SIMPLEST answer is that some of those ships that were used to get the refugees to the safe-havens dropped the refugees off, & then left them to help other refugees, thinking that the refugees they just left would be safe.

[Rathark]

As far as Vorlon telepathy goes, if they could control minds signifigantly during a major space battle, they certainly would have done so to reduce the their own losses. We did not even see evidence of the vorlons using the jamming that the younger races successfully implemented against shadow ships, which means that they are potentially not as powerful as younger race telepaths, or else they are to stupid to even try to use their full abilities when fighting to the death. The writing in Babylon 5 Wars indicates stupidity by the way. This post is probably pointless, but i had to give logic a try before resorting to gratuitous violence to get the point across to warlock.

Here's a possibly suitable analogy.

1: A human could crush a genetically engineered spider underfoot.

2: Said spider could kill a wolf with one bite.

3: A human cannot crush a wold underfoot. Pity the fool that tries.

Paper Scissors Rock.

[Graeme Dice]

and your reasoning is?..even if we say that the planets the refugees used as stations werent destroyed, this means that they destroyed one planet, but did not destroy another... does this therefore this mean theyre incapable of destroying a planet?...

ou are assuming that they destroyed the planet to prove that they destroyed the planet. That's circular.

and where did it say that?.. after ivanova stated they lost 3 planets/refugee stations.

You'll notice they need atmospheric shuttles.

??.. are you saying that the manuverability of a death star is akin to a mosquito, and that of a shadow ship is a bullet?...

No, I am saying that being able to target something has no real bearing on whether weapons can use those coordinates.

Or against something like the Vorlon Planet Killer. It's a pity they didn't use this miraculous ability there.

i wonder why that is?.. could it be because the vorlons themselves were so knowledgeable with b5 hyperspace that the yr race dare not used that particular tactic.. even the shadows didnt opt for that.. or could it also be because they had the other firstones to destroy the planet killer for them.

The ISA was not giving the first ones their orders. They had no idea what they would do. Further, in the instances where opening jumpoints were used to damage vessels, the ships were lured over a predetermined location, not targeted anywhere.

what does flying into the star have to do with producing energy.
unless u mean absorbing, redirecting, or converting that energy

Which is exactly what I mean. The death cloud has to be able to handle more energy than a typical sun outputs to drain the Death Star.

since when did the process of phasing, have anything to do with thermodynamics?
...although thermodynamics will be involved with regards to heat transfers that will occur in opening jump points or phasing into hyperspace in normal situations...whether its in/around the jump point itself, or inside the ship producing it.

So you believe that the Shadows have the energy absorpton capability to darken an entire star, but that they don't use even a millionth of this capacity against either the planets they want to sterilize, or the ships they want destroyed.

[Graeme Dice]

Concerning the VP-K destroying worlds as opposed to , for lack of a better word, sterlizing them.

Adam Warlock provided canon source proof that the Vorlons turned a planet in to ash , similar to what the DS did to Alderaan.

No he didn't. He has provided no such proof. He has never even used the word "ash" on this board.

[seanrobertson]

Concerning the VP-K destroying worlds as opposed to , for lack of a better word, sterlizing them.

Adam Warlock provided canon source proof that the Vorlons turned a planet in to ash , similar to what the DS did to Alderaan. Now some of you are saying that if this is the case why is Ivonova calling for more Evac ships? That is because, as Adam has stated & proved, that these Evac ships were to go to the worlds that had been accepting refugees from the destroyed worlds to expedite the re-evacuation from the once "safe-havens". Now some of you are saying why didn't the refugees just use the ships that they got to the safe-havens in? Because the SIMPLEST answer is that some of those ships that were used to get the refugees to the safe-havens dropped the refugees off, & then left them to help other refugees, thinking that the refugees they just left would be safe.

Bill of Ockham is spinning in his grave. This is FAR from a simple
explanation. A FAR simpler one is that the VPK simply doesn't
routinely shatter planets. Why else would they have to JAM outgoing
communications RIGHT before the so-called planet-killing blast?
(Hint: "Being really thorough" is a stupid rationalization.)

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Master of Ossus]

BTW, Ivonova said that they were especially in need of atmospheric shuttles, but then the B5ers come back and say that those were just to move people who had already excaped get down and settle on their new homes. That leads to the question of why they would even need space-only vessels, if everyone who would be escaping had already gotten off-world. Clearly the VPK did not obliterate that planet.

[adam warlock]

We hear dialogue saying that a planet has been "destroyed" and is "gone" after a VPK attack. We also hear dialogue mentioning survivors and asking for airlift evac. The most obvious theory which fits both of these facts is that the planet was "destroyed" or "gone" only in the military sense, hence the fact that some people survived.

note:
the dialogue reporting on the status of the planet, arkada7, stated that its "not there anymore..".. not "gone".
how can "not there anymore.." be taken to mean that the planet was just damaged but still there..when the simplest explanation is that its simply not there anymore because it was shattered to such an extent.
sure in the case of a military type outpost, "gone" could mean that its no longer operational, but it doesnt necessarily mean that the outpost is "not there anymore", unless it was obliterated to an extent that nothing of it remains.
in the case of hiroshima, the town/city as it used to be was "gone", after the bomb hit it. technically the place is still there, though what remained of the buildings/houses etc was damaged beyond recognition, but it cant be said that the place was "not there anymore".

A competing theory holds that survivors fled the planet, went to special sanctuary worlds not too far away, discarded the starships they used for this trip, and then came under attack again , hence the need for airlift evac. This second theory adds at least two extra terms to the equation: sanctuaries for VPK attack survivors, and starships they used to get there (and which mysteriously disappeared afterwards). Both theories fit the facts (since dialogue inherently has multiple possible interpretations), but theory #2 contains two extra terms. Therefore, theory #2 is an irrational theory (ie- violates the logical principle of parsimony).

again those attacks on refugee stations were unexpected, the use of additional (atmospheric and otherwise) ships can hasten evacuation procedures in such situations where they have to relocate asap.
and as someone pointed out, ships used previously by one set of survivors may have been needed elsewhere.. its not unknown for lowtech worlds, incapable of spaceflight, to be targeted.. prime example being corianna 6 (stated as lowtech by sheriden).. when the battle between the shadows, vorlons, and sheridens forces took place there were still 6 billion people down there. and no ships escaping the planet were seen, or reported..

as for why they didnt evacuate the people from that planet, well even though sheriden had 8000 odd ships, evacuating 6 billion people, before the vorlons and shadows get there, would be impossible.

also another note on planet killing
if the vorlons had over 10,000 ships per fleet (numbers given by graphic novel "In valens name" written by jms), why the need for a planet killer just to sterilise a planet?
one EA defense satellite can wipe out most of americas eastern seaboard, or the whole of the UK.
the UK is around 300 miles wide by 500miles thats an area of 150,000 square miles, or 384,000km2
the earths surface area is 5.11e8km2
Even 1000 EA defense satellites would be enough to cover, and destroy most of the earths surface in one salvo (with all satellites simultaneously firing)
cant 10,000 vorlon ships match this, or that the vorlons cannot match the tech employed by the ea in making the primary weapons of the satelittes.. it would be stupid to say this given how much more advanced the vorlons were said to be... and making 1000 such weapons would amount to less in effort than making something the size of the planet killer (given the size of the EA platforms themselves - with a length 1/10 of that of an omega destroyer). the planet killer would be totally worthless if all it can do is wipe out a planets surface in a fashion similar to that of ea defense satellites.

even at sufficient rates to disable the relatively puny weapons of EA starships.

but in corianna 6, why didnt the drazi or minbari war vessels use their weapons to try and shoot the 2 shadow missles, aimed at sheridens ship, instead of blocking their way..the crews sacrificing themselves.. its clear in this scene that the weapons of the yr fleet were disabled, otherwise they wouldve tried shooting..

Theory #2 holds that the SPK violates the laws of thermodynamics by "shunting" power into another dimension,

violate the laws of thermodynamics?..
that is if the spk cannot contain such level of energies, as that produced by the ds, per time, within itself,.before the energy is either converted and/or redirected.
though there is no evidence for this..
nevertheles the shadows are capable of making tools/weapons that can shatter planets (as shown in epiphanies), even if the spk is incapable (or not shown to be capable) of doing it.

and that it was not using its full energy-draining power against Sheridan's army of light or Sheridan's ship in the latter incident, even though its survival was threatened.

there was no single indication that the energy drain was used in the scene, in a call to arms, during which sheriden moved his fleet towards, and within the cloud.
again the absence of the energy drain, in a call to arms, points to the drakhs relatively little experience and incompentence with using the death cloud they have made.

The ship can still be targetted, which means that the ridiculous numbers of cannons designed to kill capital ships will have clear shots, and the volume of fire will make up for any misses that the half phased state causes.

u still have to factor in shadow manuverability while half phased.. and that not all of them are the same size, for example the one attacked, and destroyed by a vorlon transport in "interludes and examinations" cant be that much bigger than a whitestar.

also the shadows can appear close to the deathstar surface , halfphase and enter.. one did phase into realspace near a squadron of narn fighters (in "the coming of the shadows), and a group of them phased out very near b5 in the episode z'hadum,

or they could choose not to use halfphasing and just remain in hyperspace. only phase out within large enough spaces inside the deathstar.

If the shadow ship somehow makes it through, it will simply be forced into hyperspace with damage, because the death star certainly qualifies as a solid object.

but not ALL of it is solid..what about space around the reactor... as indicated in these pics

* general dodonnas tactical animation
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/rb/ds21.gif

* Secondary but more detailed reference schematic [Star Wars Technical Journal vol. 2].
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/magazi ... ds1tj2.gif

using scalings on the second source we can derive the space available, around the reactor, to be around 7-8km in radius, and 2.5km in height.. enough for large shadow battleship, more than sufficient for any of the smaller ones.

even IF the shadow ship cant appear in that space, it can remain halfphased and send the coordinates to ships that can form jump points.

We did not even see evidence of the vorlons using the jamming that the younger races successfully implemented against shadow ships,

in interludes and examinations we saw one shadow ship, unable to move as it was attacked by fighters, compare this to the the battecrab shown moving in "shadow dancing" while it was being attacked by whitestars.. and yes in that latter scene, the yr were using telepathic jamming..not necessarily to only immobilise the shadow vessels, but reduce their tactical effectiveness (i.e. lessen their coordination, prevent their weapons from firing etc).

in corianna 6, actual shadow telepathy couldve come into play, evident by shadow telepaths taking over lyta momentarily.

which means that they are potentially not as powerful as younger race telepaths, or else they are to stupid to even try to use their full abilities when fighting to the death.

considering what lyta can do.
she was able to control a large number of people (everyone in the market area actually) with no effort, shown in the wheel of fire season 5.

in the short story by jms, genius loci, she managed to telepathically, and literally, tear apart a hive mind, whose brain (or what passed for it) measured miles in length. add to that this hive mind was in telepathic control of an entire planet.

in another short story in the official b5 magazine, nautilus coil, by gregory keyes, garibaldi and lyta stumble into mr vacit.. a second generation teep... who had abilities that made him more powerful than lyta (which lyta admitted), only because mr vacit happened to have a piece of a vorlon within him.

kosh was killed by 3 shadows.. though it was indicated that he didnt fight back.
as for the battle scene with ulkesh (the second vorlon ambassador) other factors come to play on as to why he couldnt affect the security personnel around him.. 1) the piece of kosh still alive inside sheriden 2) the first one lorien himself.

right.. this is definitely my last post on this..tired of this topic now.