A conversation with a fundamentalist

[Count Dooku]

FalseReality is the idiot I'm debating with. This is about the 7th or 8th exchange we've had, but it's really starting to get interesting. He keeps making funky accustions - he's trying to tell me I've said things that I haven't! This is my latest response to him. I'd like some help in the future with this guy. Two (or more) heads are always better than one.

I'll admit that I've never read any section of the Bible straight through, but I'm decently versed in Christian ideology. Any help in future refutations are more than welcome. I'm post any future refutation here before I send it off to him.

Yes please keep saying who the real Christians are, I'm dying to know.

Again, it's a pretty widely accepted notion that Christians are people who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, right? Aside from saying that most Christians don't call Jesus' deciples lairs, I haven't said anything about who 'true' Christians really are.

And lastly, the Old Testement is an eye for an eye but you are forgetting that God sent Jesus down to dispell this belief.

Again, you have completely missed my point. Here it is again: shouldn't god be held accountable for the CRIMES he committed? You have not answered that point, at all.

This is why the OT can't be applied today and the reason why God provided us wiith a better path to live by.

Then let me ask you this: why do CHRISTIANS have such a problem with the Ten Commandments being taken down from court rooms? If the OT is no longer applicable, why get upset?

Perhaps eye-for-an-eye is not plausible, but the OT is the foundation for the Christian religion, isn't it? The OT is very relavent to our conversation, depite the claims you make. I can find plenty of other quotes from the Bible that support the claim that the OT god killed innocent people. I'm actually using a friends Bible - I'm using the internet to find relevant passages, and then I'm confirming them using the Bible - that way, you can't tell me I'm not getting my information from a credible source (again). [He was trying to tell me that Hilter was an atheist, and I immediately shot that down, using the Mien Kempf, but, as usual, he wasn't convinced. He continually tried to tell me to use a credible source. How much more credible does it get? Hitler himself wrote the fucking words!]

And lastly, the Old Testement is an eye for an eye but you are forgetting that God sent Jesus down to dispell this belief.

You do realize that god and Jesus are the same entity, right?

Paul said Jesus was god "manifested in the flesh"

The Bible said God created all things and that Jesus created all things.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one."

Sorry to digress, but the holy trinity is just too facinating to pass up. Is god a bit schitzophrenic?

"Let us create man in our own image."

"Also, I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?"

What was the real reason Jesus died on the cross (if it happened)? To atone for the sins of man, or to atone for his own sins? Jesus (also known as god) committed dozens of extremely violent acts over the course of his OT rule, and perhaps he just needed a bit of time on the cross to think about what he did.

[Count Dooku]

DAMNIT! I can't go back and edit. It's not unbelievably hard to follow, but sorry for the inconvience.

[Admiral Johnason]

He seems to ba a jackass who can't stay on topic.

My advice is to go into teh gospels and look for the verses that describe Jesus not dispelling the OT, but saying that he came to finish it.

[AdmiralKanos]

What I've always found interesting about the "God sent Jesus to change everything" crowd is that they seem to think that agreeing not to do horrible things any more somehow gets you off the hook for doing them in the past. It would be like Hitler coming out of his bunker and saying "OK OK, I get it, I can't torture and mass-murder people any more. From now on I'm going to help people. Okay?" And everybody adores him.

[Count Dooku]

He seems to ba a jackass who can't stay on topic.

My advice is to go into teh gospels and look for the verses that describe Jesus not dispelling the OT, but saying that he came to finish it.

That's a good idea! Can I say that Jesus did not dispell the creation theory, and that the OT creation theory is very important modern Christian beliefs? That's not really the type of thing he meant, though. It's what I wanted to say in my response, but edited it out...

I'll begin my search!

[Admiral Johnason]

He seems to ba a jackass who can't stay on topic.

My advice is to go into teh gospels and look for the verses that describe Jesus not dispelling the OT, but saying that he came to finish it.

That's a good idea! Can I say that Jesus did not dispell the creation theory, and that the OT creation theory is very important modern Christian beliefs? That's not really the type of thing he meant, though. It's what I wanted to say in my response, but edited it out...

I'll begin my search!

Look for the wineskin parable.

[Count Dooku]

What I've always found interesting about the "God sent Jesus to change everything" crowd is that they seem to think that agreeing not to do horrible things any more somehow gets you off the hook for doing them in the past. It would be like Hitler coming out of his bunker and saying "OK OK, I get it, I can't torture and mass-murder people any more. From now on I'm going to help people. Okay?" And everybody adores him.

That's what I said to him (and I've said it before), but he completely ignores it; or he'll just tell me that people 'needed' to be punished.

I have the cold of a lifetime, and all I'll be doing tommorow is checking this thread and looking for quotes that pertain to the argument. I should be able to dig up some decent stuff.

[Magnetic]

It MAY eventually come down to , . . .'what God does is right, because He is God, . . . and you are unable to question, nor understand His ways". . . . . . or something like that.

[Count Dooku]

It MAY eventually come down to , . . .'what God does is right, because He is God, . . . and you are unable to question, nor understand His ways". . . . . . or something like that.

LOL! That's EXACTLY what he put in his next response, which I'll be adding to this page in a few minutes. I'll need help with the refutation, too.

[Count Dooku]

I hope I've made the necessary alterations to this so it appears as a 'quote'. If not, sorry. Here is his response in it's entirity. I'll work on a refutation for this and post it here before sending it off to him.

Again, it's a pretty widely accepted notion that Christians are people who accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior, right? Aside from saying that most Christians don't call Jesus' deciples lairs, I haven't said anything about who 'true' Christians really are.

And here you go making ignorant assumptions. People don't call the disciples liars, they simply recognize different translations and hold different interpretations of text. your taking a complicated concept and simplifying it to serve your argument.

[Note: he COMPLETELY ignored one of my previous answers to his question of different interpretations of the Bible.]

Again, you have completely missed my point. Here it is again: shouldn't god be held accountable for the CRIMES he committed? You have not answered that point, at all.

I really don't thing you have any understanding of what god is.
God is omniscent
God is omnipotent
God is infalliable.
God can't be wrong and Christians believe he has never been wrong. Whether he killed some people makes no difference if he grants them eternal life in heaven. Byut really that doesn't matter because god is perfect, and the NT says forgiving.

Then let me ask you this: why do CHRISTIANS have such a problem with the Ten Commandments being taken down from court rooms? If the OT is no longer applicable, why get upset?

And here you going making a broad generalization about the OT
Does the Ten Commandments represent the eye for an eye theme. No they're God's word to Moses and the correct way to live. Yes, there can be applied to today but that is not to say the whole OT shares that compatibility.

[Note: in his previous statement to me, he said that the OT is not only not applicable today, but it doesn't show us how to live. He completely contradicts himself here...]

Perhaps eye-for-an-eye is not plausible, but the OT is the foundation for the Christian religion, isn't it? The OT is very relavent to our conversation, depite the claims you make. I can find plenty of other quotes from the Bible that support the claim that the OT god killed innocent people. I'm actually using a friends Bible - I'm using the internet to find relevant passages, and then I'm confirming them using the Bible - that way, you can't tell me I'm not getting my information from a credible source (again).

The NT is the foundation of Christianity. Ot can be more associated with Judism.

[Note: Is the OT the foundation of the Christian religion, or isn't it? Here's how I pictured it: the OT is the foundation of Christianity. It provided the background for their god and the background for the history of the 'creation' of man. The NT is simply an addendum of sorts - more like correcting an edition of a book that was un-popular with a certain sect of society. I KNOW the two are both read in Catholic services; so why would both be read if only one mattered?]

You do realize that god and Jesus are the same entity, right?

Yes, but often times the two can be seen as two entities. For instance when Jesus on the cross looks to the sky and says "forgive them father they know not what they do." Do you think Jesus is talking in the third person? Jesus also makes many reference to god.

[Note: he COMPLETELY contradicted himself...]

Sorry to digress, but the holy trinity is just too facinating to pass up. Is god a bit schitzophrenic?

And we will never understand it, move along.

What was the real reason Jesus died on the cross (if it happened)? To atone for the sins of man, or to atone for his own sins? Jesus (also known as god) committed dozens of extremely violent acts over the course of his OT rule, and perhaps he just needed a bit of time on the cross to think about what he did.

This is where I ignore people like you too dumb to have any concept of god and make outrageous claims to slander Christianity.

[Note: I guess he didn't share my sense of humor

[Big Phil]

What I've always found interesting about the "God sent Jesus to change everything" crowd is that they seem to think that agreeing not to do horrible things any more somehow gets you off the hook for doing them in the past. It would be like Hitler coming out of his bunker and saying "OK OK, I get it, I can't torture and mass-murder people any more. From now on I'm going to help people. Okay?" And everybody adores him.

That tends to be more blatant in the Protestant faiths - Born Again Christians, Evangelicals, Baptists, etc. - but it's widespread throughout Catholicism as well (Penance, Confession, etc.).

[Magnetic]

One point of major contention:

Whether he killed some people makes no difference if he grants them eternal life in heaven.

So, . . . . what. . . God kills them because apparently they won't bow down and worship, or were "filled with sin", . . . . but then grants them eternal life in Heaven. I'd like to know where THAT statement is, in the bible!!!

[Academia Nut]

Whether he killed some people makes no difference if he grants them eternal life in heaven.

All right, you need to nail him on this little piece of shit. Point out the fact that when God kills people, it is usually always because they pissed him off over some minor little infraction and now they're in Hell by pretty much all Christian dogma I can think of. That line is like, "Oh, yeah, the police brutality wasn't that great, but they got to go to a resort afterward" when in reality they got shipped off to some shithole like Gitmo. Usually for jaywalking too.

[God Fearing Atheist]

Couple of comments:

- 1 Tim is pseudonymous; it was not authored by Paul. The "God [θεος] made manifest" reading at 1 Tim 3.16 (as in the KJV) is a weakly supported textual variant. The older and more numerous witnesses read "he [ος; i.e. Jesus] was made manifest...."

- Col 1.16 says nothing about Jesus creating anything. The "him" in "οτι εν αυτω" at verse 16 refers back to verse 15, where the author makes clear that he's talking about "the invisible God [θεου του αορατου]," or YHWH.

[darthkommandant]

I would bring up the fact that if god is sooooo perfect why did he create the universe. And how did we go from perfection to imperfection. That and the fact that god is a sadistic and creau bastard who would be considered in the Hitler/Stalin range of evil if he were human.

[Count Dooku]

Couple of comments:

- 1 Tim is pseudonymous; it was not authored by Paul. The "God [θεος] made manifest" reading at 1 Tim 3.16 (as in the KJV) is a weakly supported textual variant. The older and more numerous witnesses read "he [ος; i.e. Jesus] was made manifest...."

- Col 1.16 says nothing about Jesus creating anything. The "him" in "οτι εν αυτω" at verse 16 refers back to verse 15, where the author makes clear that he's talking about "the invisible God [θεου του αορατου]," or YHWH.

1: How much of an impact does it make on the idea that the Holy Trinity is one entity?

2: YHWH, is the Hebrew god, is it not? I'm certainly not well versed in Biblical scripture (I got my quotes from a Christian Website, and then referenced a Bible). The author is talking about 'the invisible god' - what exactly does that mean? The Holy Spirit?

[Admiral Johnason]

I would bring up the fact that if god is sooooo perfect why did he create the universe. And how did we go from perfection to imperfection. That and the fact that god is a sadistic and creau bastard who would be considered in the Hitler/Stalin range of evil if he were human.

While I don't believe in the first half of Genesis, it has man fucking up the planet with free will. Supossedly, God just sort of left a purposely flawed creation in charge of his creation.

And God is not an anti-semite, so pick different mass murders.

[Darth Wong]

I would bring up the fact that if god is sooooo perfect why did he create the universe. And how did we go from perfection to imperfection. That and the fact that god is a sadistic and creau bastard who would be considered in the Hitler/Stalin range of evil if he were human.

While I don't believe in the first half of Genesis, it has man fucking up the planet with free will.

No it doesn't. According to the Bible, God fucked up the planet as punishment for Man, and then made Man live in it. God literally had to change all the laws of biology in order to inflict his punishment on Adam.

Supossedly, God just sort of left a purposely flawed creation in charge of his creation.

That interpretation would imply that nature would still be perfect if not for human activity, which is quite obviously absurd.

And God is not an anti-semite, so pick different mass murders.

Are you kidding? God is a domineering, abusive father figure to the Israelites in the Old Testament. He fights their enemies on their behalf on occasion, but whenever he's not doing that, he's brutally punishing them for not respecting him enough.

[Admiral Johnason]

I would bring up the fact that if god is sooooo perfect why did he create the universe. And how did we go from perfection to imperfection. That and the fact that god is a sadistic and creau bastard who would be considered in the Hitler/Stalin range of evil if he were human.

While I don't believe in the first half of Genesis, it has man fucking up the planet with free will.

No it doesn't. According to the Bible, God fucked up the planet as punishment for Man, and then made Man live in it. God literally had to change all the laws of biology in order to inflict his punishment on Adam.

Supossedly, God just sort of left a purposely flawed creation in charge of his creation.

That interpretation would imply that nature would still be perfect if not for human activity, which is quite obviously absurd.

And God is not an anti-semite, so pick different mass murders.

Are you kidding? God is a domineering, abusive father figure to the Israelites in the Old Testament. He fights their enemies on their behalf on occasion, but whenever he's not doing that, he's brutally punishing them for not respecting him enough.

Good point. I havn't touched the OT in years. A little fire and brimstone for my taste.

[wolveraptor]

I'm having a bugger of a time finding that quote where Jesus says he hasn't come to abolish the old law (presumably referring to the Old Testament). I could've sworn Mike used it on his http://www.creationtheory.org website...

[Surlethe]

I'm having a bugger of a time finding that quote where Jesus says he hasn't come to abolish the old law (presumably referring to the Old Testament).

"I have come to fulfill the law, not destroy it." I'm looking through the SAB right now to try to find it.

[wolveraptor]

I have no idea what book of the New Testament it's in, though I would guess it's in the one targetted at converting Jews by appealing to their faith in the Old Testament. The problem is, I forgot which book aims to do that.

[Surlethe]

Ah-hah: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matt 5:17)

[God Fearing Atheist]

1: How much of an impact does it make on the idea that the Holy Trinity is one entity?

Trinitarian christology is not something you'll find in the NT. The only unambiguious cases of Jesus being called god at all date to the latter part of the first century (GJohn, Hebrews), and even these guys did not, so far as we know, understand Jesus the way later Christians did/do.

2: YHWH, is the Hebrew god, is it not? I'm certainly not well versed in Biblical scripture (I got my quotes from a Christian Website, and then referenced a Bible). The author is talking about 'the invisible god' - what exactly does that mean? The Holy Spirit?

He means YHWH, the invisible god of the Jews (and Christians).

[Count Dooku]

Trinitarian christology is not something you'll find in the NT. The only unambiguious cases of Jesus being called god at all date to the latter part of the first century (GJohn, Hebrews), and even these guys did not, so far as we know, understand Jesus the way later Christians did/do.

Where did this notion come from? St. John of Damascus' book, A Classic in Eastern Orthodox Christian Theology, is the first goo explanation of the Christian 'Holy Trinity'. Is this book where this idea originated?