[Discussion] Hall of Shame policy

[Darth Wong]

Following recent events in which people have increasingly used the Hall of Shame as a venting outlet by posting their own venting threads (and failing to use the official venting thread, which was expressly provided for this purpose), I changed the permissions on the Hall of Shame so that regular members can only respond to existing threads, but can't make new ones. Only mods can make new threads in the Hall of Shame now.

If anyone has any objections or proposed alterations to this revised policy, feel free to air them out.

[Stravo]

Right and honorable senators, as always, I try to bring the voice of the people to the attention of this August Body. Please allow me to voice the concerns of one user:

I think one of the reasons people opened their own threads was they had something to say that was very private and yet was not venting. Maybe they wanted comments or suggestions and that's not always easy to get. Most posters don't really look at venting threads beyond their own posts or maybe a friend or two, so it's a way of getting attention.

I'm not saying there arn't people who open threads in HoS who have no buisness doing so(I did it, unfortunatly) but I think there is still a use for private stuff outside of just the venting.

May I add that the noble Fgalkin has on several occasions raised the prospect of a user private forum so that they can bring some issues that they do not wish to be known to the general internet public at large. For instance the recent issue with DP Primus' hospital stay comes to mind.

I am also reminded that we do have ARSE as a possible avenue for these kind of threads.

I suggest that this discussion should be broadened to include the possibility of such a pirvate forum. This is of course if the Emperor permits it.

EDITED out a comment as it was in violation of house rules I was made aware of.

[Surlethe]

Perhaps, if individuals wish for a topic-specific thread to be opened, they should contact a Horseman or a other moderator to request a thread be opened; if the moderator accedes to the request, he can then open the thread, with a provided OP, and then discussion will ensue.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Most of the plebe-spawned threads in the HoS have been topics more appropriate to the Venting thread. Now I'm guessing that they create these threads in the hope that they'll gather more attention than they would in the everybody-calls-in Hour (or Ten Pages) of Rage format of the Venting Thread.

However, as has been pointed out, this goes against the spirit and intentions of the Hall of Shame. If users want to get into deep, involved vents and garner lots of sympathy/support/advice, there are a plethora of blogging/journal/chat/support group/online diary sites and tools out there that are specifically marketed for that purpose and include privacy features that permit given entries to be viewable only to a user's list of trusted/approved people.

If someone has a potentially embarrassing relationship problem, then we have ARSE for that. If they want to post provocative flame-bait that would be inappropriate in a public forum like OT, then perhaps they should consider not posting it, instead of clogging HoS. If they've got a vent appropriate to the Venting thread, then fine, use that. If they're cross-posting a manifesto from their LiveJournal/MySpace then the board may not be the best place for that. Especially if users are concerned about their privacy. After all to view ARSE or HoS only requires a valid user account. As a demonstration of how much 'privacy' this actually offers, only only need look at Parting Shots, where there are the corpses of a plethora of people who could sign up and activate accounts, but were otherwise a complete waste of bandwidth.

With that being said, I'm in full support of the new set of posting permissions. And I'd think that if a user had a thread they wanted to be kept somewhat private, and it had a sufficiently broad application, then they could PM the moderators and ask them to open a new HoS thread.

However, if there exists a strong need for people to seek out legitimate non-public advice or support for things that aren't relationship or sexuality related, that wouldn't violate the board rules, or doesn't involve Google-educated amateurs playing lawyer or doctor in the board population, then perhaps a registered-user only version of Testing might be appropriate . . . where threads are auto-deleted regularly. However, I feel I must reiterate what I've mentioned above, and to say that I'm not in support of such an idea, but am merely suggesting how it might be soundly implemented.

[RedImperator]

May I add that the noble Fgalkin has on several occasions raised the prospect of a user private forum so that they can bring some issues that they do not wish to be known to the general internet public at large. For instance the recent issue with DP Primus' hospital stay comes to mind.

A Livejournal account is free, and you can set the viewing permissions so only your friends can read it, which is far more secure than any thread on this board could be. For threads like DP's (which, it should be noted, was created in OT and later moved to the HOS on his request), exceptions to the rule can be made at the discretion of the Horsemen. Otherwise, put it in ARSE, put it in OT, or if you're that worried about it, don't put it on the board.

Besides, how many of these threads are really being started because the author doesn't want them read by the Internet at large and how many are being started because he knows he'll get two replies in the authorized venting thread, so he's taken it upon himself to clutter the HOS and use more than his share of bandwidth with a thread devoted entirely to him? We don't need a Livejournal forum. It's not our problem if somebody isn't popular enough to avoid getting lost in the shuffle in Venting.

As to the OP, I have no objection whatsoever to the new policy. Everybody thank the lamebots who couldn't take a hint when Edi yelled at other people who started their own venting threads.

[Coyote]

HoS is indeed being abused. If a plebe wants to start a "Waaahhh" thread, they can do it in Testing. Get it out, get it over with, and no more of what amounts to stupid "Postcount +" wanking.

If it becomes necessary to have a "Piss & Moan" subforum, fine, but I think it is completely unecessary. People should get a fucking LJ account and then if they think they've said something that's just so nifty and clever that they have to share it they can provide a link. Might encourage them to learn how to dress the goddamn things too.

[Sonnenburg]

"Hall of Shame
HoS: see, discuss, and laugh at the awe-inspiring stupidity of our worst trolls, sociopaths, miscreants, and morons."

Sorry, I just don't see anything in there about private discussion of personal topics. If someone wants to open the discussion on that matter, they're welcome to, but I see no need to change the policy for HOS based on this.

The only thing that comes to mind is that HOS seems to be the place to discuss Scooter's antics; he's been rather quiet compared to all the 3 million clone antics going on. Certainly don't want to encourage dozens of threads that mostly consistent of "he is so stupid"[/Andy Kaufman], but there have been a few interesting dicussions that have arisen because of criticism of his positions. I don't think it's worth unlocking the board solely for that purpose, so that really leaves three options that I can see. One would be a thread dedicated to such matters, but I don't think that's the kind of encouragement he needs. A second would simply be to put a moritorium on discussing him, but as I said there have been some interesting discussings to come of it (not the metoo-ing, but finding the flaws in the arguments). Third would be to allow it board-wide with the stipulation that it remain on message, with addressing the argurments rather than anything else, and rigidly enforcing it.

[SirNitram]

A related tangent put forth by Hotfoot, who requested I place this before this august assembly.

Just had a thought that given there was a thought for a potential forum for advice concerning professional matters, such as job searchs, resume help, and so on, maybe that could be combined with the desire for a forum to state other personal matters, such as members in the hospital, moving away, or other such things. Maybe called Personal Help or something along those lines.

[Edi]

A related tangent put forth by Hotfoot, who requested I place this before this august assembly.

Just had a thought that given there was a thought for a potential forum for advice concerning professional matters, such as job searchs, resume help, and so on, maybe that could be combined with the desire for a forum to state other personal matters, such as members in the hospital, moving away, or other such things. Maybe called Personal Help or something along those lines.

The idea isn't bad as such, but the same idiots who caused the HoS lockdown will just turn it into their LiveJournal emoting substitute, and we'd be back in square one. So fuck them. Need resume help, job search or something else, let the people post in OT or Testing and take it to PM or email with those who want to help them. Anything too sensitive can be moved out of sight or they can request that a mod start such a thread in the HoS for them.

Edi

[Lagmonster]

A lot of this calls into question the spirit of the board itself; while it began as a forum for the discussion of the now-deceased Star Wars vs. Star Trek debate, it has grown its own culture based on a wider range of interests between members. So in discussions such as these one wants to remember that they are essentially trying to determine the board's growth - and to me, I don't believe Mike, or any of us, ever really envisioned this place becoming a giant public psychiatrist's couch.

There are professionals, trusted friends, mentors, peers, spouses and parents who should be the ones we turn to when we have serious personal problems; people near to us who know our situation well and we trust to give good counsel. While I know that there are members here who excel in their own fields and ways, it's a poor substitute and shallow comparison to real life that I wouldn't really encourage, because I would never want to know that a faceless mob, however accredited, is a higher comfort than the people we keep company with.

[Mad]

I don't think it's worth unlocking the board solely for that purpose, so that really leaves three options that I can see.

A fourth option could be Surlethe's take: they can simply PM someone who has the ability to start new threads and see if that person will open the thread in the HoS.

As you pointed out, personal matters don't really fit into the purpose of the forum. It's for discussing trolls, not oneself. (Unless, of course, oneself is a troll.) The policies thread even says so:

This forum is for threads which were either:

Started by a troll, misanthrope, spammer, or idiot
Hijacked by a troll, misanthrope, spammer, or idiot
Intended to discuss the antics of a troll, misanthrope, spammer, or idiot

The idea for a "Community Affairs" forum as a non-relationship counterpart to ARSE does sound like it would fit the role for the kinds of threads that were being created in the HoS. However, I agree with Lagmonster in that an Internet forum can only do but so much good in giving advice and GrandMasterTerwynn in that an Internet forum isn't really private anyway. There's perhaps more privacy in posting the thread in Testing where it will be deleted relatively soon. If the thread ends up having material worth keeping, it can be moved. And that would very likely be the exception rather than the rule.

[Spyder]

The Hall of Shame is not a venting forum. I would second the sentiment that testing would be more appropriate for vents. However, if there is a public outcry for vents then I propose that we allow them in OT but make it clear in the rules that there are no expectations for the calibre of replies in a vent thread. The cost of a vent thread will then be the board's amusement at the venter's expense.

[Patrick Degan]

The Hall of Shame is not a venting forum. I would second the sentiment that testing would be more appropriate for vents. However, if there is a public outcry for vents then I propose that we allow them in OT but make it clear in the rules that there are no expectations for the calibre of replies in a vent thread. The cost of a vent thread will then be the board's amusement at the venter's expense.

Hmmm... I'd have to think long and hard before I'd want to see venting threads on the Off-Topic board. Granted, it technically would be the place for such discussions, but OT has become over the years a rather fertile ground for exchange on a multitude of intellectual and cultural subjects which don't quite fit with the other topic boards and I'd hate to see that ruined in the long-run. I'd almost be inclined to vote for the institution of a seperate Venting board, but I'm in the dark about whether the bandwidth is available for it to begin with or even if such a dedicated board would be desirable.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

The Hall of Shame is not a venting forum. I would second the sentiment that testing would be more appropriate for vents. However, if there is a public outcry for vents then I propose that we allow them in OT but make it clear in the rules that there are no expectations for the calibre of replies in a vent thread. The cost of a vent thread will then be the board's amusement at the venter's expense.

Hmmm... I'd have to think long and hard before I'd want to see venting threads on the Off-Topic board. Granted, it technically would be the place for such discussions, but OT has become over the years a rather fertile ground for exchange on a multitude of intellectual and cultural subjects which don't quite fit with the other topic boards and I'd hate to see that ruined in the long-run. I'd almost be inclined to vote for the institution of a seperate Venting board, but I'm in the dark about whether the bandwidth is available for it to begin with or even if such a dedicated board would be desirable.

This isn't Blogger, Xanga, LiveJournal or MySpace. A dedicated Venting sub-forum would be very undesireable, I think, for all the reasons already listed so far in the discussion.

[Coyote]

Another thing to bear in mind-- the Mess has its own Venting thread where we can whinge about military matters with people who understand. Other small groups or subforums can just as easily do the same. An "Off-Topic Emo or Venting" thread can be stickied and refreshed as needed, just as there can be Vent threads in all the other subgroups.

So there's my idea: a Venting/Emo thread and a Profession thread stickied in Off-Topic. That should be sufficient. One-off piss & moans can go to Venting or Testing. Someone who wants to start their own bitch & moan thread just for the sake of the attention is naught but a mere attention whore.

[Edi]

Anybody who wants to have their own thread for emoting and bitching should post it in Testing, where it will get auto-deleted after it has run its course. I do not see any need to provide the spammy chatterboxes with a way of preserving such useless "contributions" for posterity. Something like the Mess vent thread is not going to work on a larger scale, because there are going to be too many people on the board. The general Venting threads are for the emoting and bitching, and if it's not good enough for someone, they can take it outside the board.

Edi

[Ghost Rider]

Honestly given the abuse spammers would take with a stickied venting thread?

I'd rather not listen to the plethora of emoing bitches. Seriously, either do it one note to what we give in HoS, because it's at 119 or get a journal space and tell the people you like about it.

The HoS is a place to dump shit topics, not make a topic about how bad some point of your life is because you don't want to take the 10 seconds to sign up and register on a free site.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'm gonna add to what seems the general consensus that SDNet was never intended to become a sort of easy access LiveJournal where people can bitch away to their hearts content. HoS's Venting thread is sufficient for a good ol' vent at crap that comes up and, as Coyote pointed out, the sub-forums are a great place for more specific rants. I abhor clutter on general principal and the profusion of personal "this sucks in my life" threads in HoS just littered the field without doing anything that couldn't be done in the Venting thread.

[Stuart Mackey]

At the risk of a 'me too' post.
I have been wondering for some time about what HOS was for given what tends to get posted there {and I think I may have posted some silly things there, that in retrospect were not 'on topic', so I know from where I speak.}.

HOS's mission statement is clear, and anything else should be in testing methinks.

[Connor MacLeod]

I rarely if ever create threads in the HoS so I don't really have an issue with this. More to the point, this forum has never been something I have ever seen as a "support-group" type place. Its more of a "up-front, in your face, if you don't like it get the fuck out" kind of place. As such, providing a general, permanant outlet for that sort of behaviour is kind of pointless.

For the most part I see this as a case of "ignoring the rules and abusing prieveleges" as Mike presented it: There's a specific venting thread for needs like that. The only reason we'd really need to "post" in the HoS anyhow is to present (privately) some new, interesting, or awe-inspiring stupidity (although even then that might get tiresome.. ie a "OMGLOOKWHATDARKSTARHASPOSTED" type crap..) If there is something that someone feels would be worthwhile in the HoS they can PM the appropriate individuals.

That said, to keep said individuals from being inundated with pointless topic ideas, maybe there should be some guidelines as to what is/is not accepted, ,with flooding the pm boxes with frivolous ideas leading to punishments (as appropriate).

[Edi]

That said, to keep said individuals from being inundated with pointless topic ideas, maybe there should be some guidelines as to what is/is not accepted, ,with flooding the pm boxes with frivolous ideas leading to punishments (as appropriate).

Umm, you do realize that anybody spamming the relevant mods' inboxes with pointless PMs is going to have their own inbox burnt down around their ears and find themselves in possession of several new bodily orifices? Because that's what will happen to those who make frivolous requests. Then there's the delightful option of taking it up with the rest of the staff and possibly issuing warnings if it doesn't stop.

Doesn't mean that topic requests are completely unwelcome, there is no objection to something like e.g. the DPDarkPrimus thread that got moved to HoS from OT. It's just that thread requests need to be justified.

Edi

[The Yosemite Bear]

Following recent events in which people have increasingly used the Hall of Shame as a venting outlet by posting their own venting threads (and failing to use the official venting thread, which was expressly provided for this purpose), I changed the permissions on the Hall of Shame so that regular members can only respond to existing threads, but can't make new ones. Only mods can make new threads in the Hall of Shame now.

If anyone has any objections or proposed alterations to this revised policy, feel free to air them out.

no as your the boss man...

(please don't beat us average denizens anymore, boss) <jk> (watching some old prison flick sorry)