Debating JWs

[Dread Not]

Hello. First post here.

I got a visit from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses a few of days ago, and they seem to be getting a little more discreet. The last time they were here they didn't even say who they actually were and hid their copy of the Watchtower in another magazine.

This time they started out by asking me if I thought God valued seeing people of different ethnicities, backgrounds, lifestyles, cultures etc. I immediately said I was an agnostic (since I'm both atheist and agnostic). He didn't know what that meant which I found odd considering he goes around advocating his religion door to door (judging from the look on his face he probably thought I was part of some demonic cult ).

He went on to talk about how God foretold that people would do terrible things in his name, which is why religion is "supposedly" responsible for so much harm. I had never heard this argument before, but I do know that I am fed up with apologist nonsense, saying things like God DOES actually value diversity, and that religious atrocities were not committed by TRUE followers of God, so they can get on people's good sides.

Since they'll probably be back in the near future because I wasn't nearly as unwelcoming as I should have been, I'm wondering if anybody can let me know where he might have gotten his arguments, and any other good material for debating a JW since I'm not too familiar with the specifics of their religion.

Thanks!

[Civil War Man]

The argument that deeply devout people who commit atrocities are not True <insert belief system here>, as opposed to moral people who make passing compliments (regardless of whether they belong to the belief system or not) is a pretty old one. Like the Christians who keep bringing up the "Hitler was an atheist" meme.

Debating them will probably just get you tired and aggravated, since any points you make will likely be brushed off or distorted. You might as well speak in tongues and throw goat's blood at them. At least then they'll stop coming back.

[wolveraptor]

Listen, you're not going to have a rational discussion with these people. My reccomendations is to have some fun; fuck with their minds by professing to worship some obscure, pagan god, and act incredulous when they don't know who you're talking about. You can then have your own witnessing session to them.

[AdmiralKanos]

I've debated Jehovah's Witnesses into a state of red-faced fury on at least three occasions, and without ever raising my voice or insulting them directly. It's not difficult to do; you simply reject the things that they assume will be accepted premises in your discussion.

You are expected to give certain answers. You have to remember that JWs are taught to basically follow a script. So when they talk to people, they tend to assume that everyone is either a lapsed Christian, a member of a different Christian sect, someone who shares certain assumptions such as the existence of an afterlife, or at least someone who thinks the Bible deserves reverence.

The trick is to not only disagree with those assumptions, but to do so bluntly and unapologetically. Don't just timidly say that you don't believe the Bible can be taken literally; say that it's a ridiculous joke and that no one in his right mind could possibly take it seriously. Poke fun at the talking shrubbery and the idiotic notion that penguins and polar bears lived near Noah's house.

Similarly, when he talks about Jesus' teachings, don't timidly say that you don't follow them; flatly say "Yeah, but Jesus was obviously a raving lunatic. He thought he was the Son of God" and laugh in his face. They don't know how to react to something like this; it's not part of their training.

[Ryushikaze]

I've never had the misfortune of getting dinged by JW'ers, but I do know what I'll do if they ever show- I will either take their discussion on an AMAZING tangent, advocating a free election for godhood since the current one is doing such a piss poor job, or I will claim to be god.

Though I do have a story of a friend who was accosted by them. It was a typical saturday morning, when they woke her up by ringing the bell. She, rather groggily, walked downstairs in a shirt and underwear and answered the door, which caught them off guard a bit. They began talking, and her cat, a totally black male named familiar, hopped, as was his habit, into her arms and then climbed atop her shoulders and curled around her neck. Her response was a loving 'Hello familiar..." and petting. The JW's hightailed it quick.

[Lord of the Abyss]

The one time I had a visit from some JWs I was a teen. When they started in on their sales pitch, I told them I didn't care about God or the afterlife, because by the time I was old I intended to download my mind into a computer and live forever on my own computer synthesized paradise. Why go for God's heaven when I can have one made the way I like it ?

They made the mistake of trying to claim it couldn't be done, and I went into full sci-fi nerd technobabble mode. Like Wong said; they go by a script, and they didn't have one. They certainly didn't have one for someone who waved aside God as irrelevant. It was actually rather fun, and I never saw them again.

I think it was over on the Straight Dope that this guy related his story, about being visited by some of the JW just after coming home from some Society for Creative Anachronism affair, still dressed in costume. His reaction was to whip open the door with a big smile and invite them in; since he was a big guy in Viking costume complete with axe they were a little freaked out. They soon made excuses and left, unable to take a house full of armed medievaloids. According to him, not only did they not come back, but he saw them cross the street to avoid his house.

[WyrdNyrd]

So, JWs work to a script and get flustered real fast if their target doesn't follow his side of that script?

JWs are God's call center agents!

[Lagmonster]

When I lived with my parents, we lived within walking distance of one of their halls. My wife's old condo, too, was within walking distance of yet another one of their halls.

We actually had the clever ones; while they are trained to a script, many of them are savvy and take their roles seriously, and so actually have a good idea of the kind of jokes (answering the door nude, pulling 'Satanist' jokes, etc.) and insults that go around in stories when people talk about JWs. And at least a few of the pairs nearby were immune to either personal insult, mockery, or vehement dismissal.

The only thing that worked on these ones is straight-forward blasphemy or arguing with them until they get tired and leave, and victory by endurance is hardly a satisfying victory.

[weemadando]

One of the best ones you can use is the "How many Jehovah's Witnesses are there?"

Because, apparently there are only a limited amount of slots in heaven. Now, the number of Jehovah's Witnesses that have existed already FAR exceed (orders of magnitude here) the amount of slots available in heaven. So, having used this question on them, I've had them all concede, every time, that they aren't going to get to go to heaven. Despite all their work, they'll be stuck in limbo.

If they still aren't convinced, ask them why they want to covert you if you'd just be one extra person competing for their space in heaven. Inevitably they will reply that by saving you, they get extra frequent convert points, or whatever, redeemable for entry to the pearly fucking gates. At that point, its best to turn up the emotion a bit and ask them why they'd choose to just treat you like a voucher to be traded in (some tears here work a charm). The looks on their faces as they search for an answer will live with you forever.

[wolveraptor]

The only thing that worked on these ones is straight-forward blasphemy or arguing with them until they get tired and leave, and victory by endurance is hardly a satisfying victory.

Speaking of a lack of satisfaction, has anyone else tried saying, "Okay, I convert", and slamming the door in their faces?

[Rye]

The last time they came here, they were 2 women, trying to tell me about good biblical ways to live my life. I was ill and dressed in only a dressing gown, but I giggled anyway and invited them in, saying gently "I know a bit about religion, how about you come in and we talk about it?"

They wouldn't come in, of course. They just sort of fobbed me off with a quickly delivered "you're obviously not dressed for it" and promised to come back, but they never did. I wore my Deicide Tshirt that whole week expecting them to come back, getting ready to say "so forgive me," if/when they complained.

[Larz]

Don't even try to debate these idiots. Last time I debated one was outside the hospital my wife works at. They where trying to convert patients to JW's and begin refusing blood transfusions and such. Doing this kind of conversion in front of a hospital.

It's all well and good going door to door and trying to convert folks but something about trying to convert sick and dieing folks who may need a transfussion to live, and on top of this preaching how transfussions are evil and make one unwhole as a selling point, just bothered me. Suffice to say I left that arguement angrier than hell and the dumbass still blindly preaching.

[Surlethe]

I had a few stop me last week; I wanted to stay and debate them, but I was running an errand. The tangent I considered taking was either to say that I was an atheist, and debate like that, or to say that I was Catholic, and ask them why, since I was perfectly fine in the Catholic church, I should join an upstart little cult. I also considered, momentarily, accusing their religion of racism; they can't accuse me back, since they also accept the Bible as a premise.

[apocolypse]

One of the best ones you can use is the "How many Jehovah's Witnesses are there?"

Because, apparently there are only a limited amount of slots in heaven. Now, the number of Jehovah's Witnesses that have existed already FAR exceed (orders of magnitude here) the amount of slots available in heaven. So, having used this question on them, I've had them all concede, every time, that they aren't going to get to go to heaven. Despite all their work, they'll be stuck in limbo.

Not exactly. They believe that a specified amount will go to heaven (the "144,000") to rule with Jesus. The rest will inherit a new Earth.

[Dread Not]

Thanks for all of the ideas. If/when they come back I have no intention of debating them diplomatically. My objective is to hit them so hard with facts and arguments that they'll feel so stupid and insecure that they'll want to cry for the rest of the day (or week even).

Another idea I had was to mention that I've donated blood a number of times with no plans of stopping, and that I'm probably going to put my name up for bone marrow donations as well. Should give them the idea that I don't care what they think.

Also a point I thought of for atheists to bring up when fundies try to convert them is how atheists have already denied the existance of the holy spirit which Jesus described as an unforgivable sin (Mark 3:29), so there's no point in converting since atheists are eternally damned anyway. (Oh no! )

Rhetorical question: Why are all of the JWs that come to my neighborhood so good looking??? I mean the girl that came to my door and stayed quiet the whole time was HAWT! Guess they're making up for what they lack in brainpower. On the plus side, them being young and relatively inexperienced should make it easier for me to crush them into never wanting to come back!

[Darth Servo]

JWs actually boast about how literally they take the Bible. I have a few doctrines of theirs that don't even have Biblical support so for people who do accept the Bible and therefore can't use Mike's more direct approach, challenge them on the following:

1: Where in the Bible does it say Adam and Eve can't be saved?
2: Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel?
3: Where in the Bible does it forbid celebrating man-made holidays (birthdays, Christmas, etc), especially since the book of Esther ends with Israel creating a new one.
4: Justify the idea that only 144,000 people are going to heaven.
5: Justify the idea that young children who die before adulthood can't go to heaven in contrast to Matt 19:14
6: Where in the Bible does it say Baptism is for dedication and NOT for forgiveness of sins contrary to Acts 2:38.
7: Justify the idea that Judah was conquored by Babylon in 607 BCE even though every source lists it as 586 BCE.
8: Challenge them as to what makes them any different from any other Protestant religion. They got their start in exactly the same way--their founder didn't like the existing religions so he decided to start a new one.

I could list more but I'd have to read through their literature again and I REALLY don't need a headache at the moment.

[Darth Servo]

One last thing I just thought of. They believe in being completely neutral in government affairs, not participating in politics or serving in the armed forces, etc because Satan at one point claims to own all wordly kingdoms. They don't seem to have an answer that this statement wouldn't cover democracies and other forms of governments.

[Majin Gojira]

The only thing that worked on these ones is straight-forward blasphemy or arguing with them until they get tired and leave, and victory by endurance is hardly a satisfying victory.

Speaking of a lack of satisfaction, has anyone else tried saying, "Okay, I convert", and slamming the door in their faces?

No, but I once told them, before they even got started: "I'm sorry. I'm a card carrying member of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy. So your tactics aren't going to work well on me. Have a nice day!" THEN closing the door.

Utterly dumbfounded.

[Darth Wong]

I used this tactic on another type of fundie once, not a JW. Never tried it on a JW. But what I did was I just stood there with my arms folded across my chest and a smirk on my face. I never said anything except for "You honestly believe that? *snicker* OK, go on."

Eventually he got pissed off and stormed off.

[nasor]

Actually, by far the easiest way to fluster a JW is to point out their long tradition of failed "end of the world" prophecies. Charles Taze Russell, the guy who founded the JW sect, was dead certain that the world would end in 1914, after most of humanity was wiped out in war, riots, and other mass violence. That was basically the entire point of the JW in its early years - "The world will end in 1914. Join me and be ready!" Indeed, their popularity increased quite a bit when WWI broke out.

When 1914 came and went without any apocalypse, the church announced that they had got it wrong but that the new date for the end of the world was definitely 1918. Then after 1918 it became 1925. Then they announced that they weren't sure exactly when it would be, but that it would definitely be "within a generation." Apparently it's turned out to be quite a long generation...

Their entire church is founded on a prophecy that never happened. They apparently learned their lesson and haven't officially stated any new dates for doomsday, other than that it will be "real soon now." I'm sure you can find all the exact details with a few google searches.

[Darth Servo]

Oh, they STILL think 1914 was a big year for the Kingdom of heaven. They just changed it from "the end of the world" to "Jesus returned to power in heaven and cast Satan out and down to Earth to make war on humanity one last time"

[nasor]

Oh, they STILL think 1914 was a big year for the Kingdom of heaven. They just changed it from "the end of the world" to "Jesus returned to power in heaven and cast Satan out and down to Earth to make war on humanity one last time"

Yeah, but Russell was quite clear prior to 1914 that the "final war" would be over and that most of the world's population would be dead, all governments would be gone, etc. by the beginning of 1915. Later attempts by the JW to change Russell’s prophecy fly in the face of what he was actually saying/publishing before the prophecy failed in 1914.

[Pezzoni]

A thread similar to this came up a while back, and there expressed irritance that I've never had my very own JW to argue with. I still havn't

I personally like the tatics outlined by some above of well-supported mockery and derision, it allows you to wind them up whilst still having a good argument.

[Kathryn]

Has anyone considered just not answering the door?

[SirNitram]

Has anyone considered just not answering the door?

1) Some people enjoy the intellectual exercise.

2) Trust me, it doesn't work. They just keep coming back.