Would the ISA stand a chance vs the Borg?

[Graeme Dice]

All canon & official sources say, in no uncertain terms, that the B5 satation is a little over 8km, or 5 miles long.

All canon sources also state that B5 weighs 250,000 tons.

Also, you are wrong about that site. I wonder if you even noticed that Michael Wong is cited for checking the math.

And so? I didn't see anything wrong with the math either. I saw blatant problems with assumptions.

He makes reasonable assumptions about fictional material, just as Mr Wong made reasonable assumptions about the asteriods for which he used to help determine Turbo-laser output.

Thank you for ignoring the fact that I've already shown the assumptions to be ridiculous. Further, he uses circular reasoning to "prove" the strength of B5 armour and weapons.

[Crown]

Hi guys,

Sorry to just butt in, in the middle of an argument hear, however the old, open a jump point in the middle to a ship attack seems to be running rampant in this thread, so if I may just add a few points to it;

• In 'In the Begining' the Minbari did use this tactic once, however I will point out that they loured the EA ships into a precisely predetermined position in order to spring the attack, that means that the bait did not send them the position of the ships in order to jump in a wreck them, because my assumption is that it wasn't able to provide that kind of accurate information.
• With the case of the Whitestar entering Mars, it had to be provided the coordinates this time.

Was this post useless?

[Master of Ossus]

B5 weapon output estimates per weapon of the youger races are lower than Federation weapons. I agree. However the key here is that Federation ships do not appear to be able to fire more than 1 phaser strip & 1 PhoTorp launcher (with max of 10 torps at a time-ST:TNG Tech Manual) at a time, with exception to the Defiant. Case in point: In DS9 (B5 rip-off) We see a Galaxy-class fly right into a Cardasian/Dominion battlegroup firing only it's dorsal saucer phaser array. If it was able to fire more than 1 phaser at a time, we should have seen it firing it's ventral saucer phaser array as well since it's target was within the firing arcs of both phaser arrays. Or at the very least, at a different target within the arc of the ventral saucer phaser array.

Now, almost all B5 youger races' ships are able to fire most, or all of their weapons at once at either multiple targets, or concentrate them all (the ones in the appropriate firing arcs) on 1 target. We see EA Omega-class destroyers fire atleast 2 of their forward Heavy Pulse cannons at 1 target, in "Severed Dreams" 1 Omega did so at another Omega, which blocked those shots with its own heavy pulse cannons. Later we see another Omega fire both forward heavy laser cannons at yet another Omega, while its interceptors are firing at attacking Starfuries.
In "In The Begining", we see Minbari Sharlin & Shargoti cruisers firing multiple Neutron lasers at EA ships throughout the show. Also, according to Agents Of Gaming, as long as all weapons have power supplied to them, they are all allowed to fire at once. Afterwards, though, some will not be able to fire as soon as others for recharging reasons.

So? I never argued that a GCS could fire more than one weapon system at a time (it CAN fire phasers and torpedoes simultaneously). Also remember that Sharlins and Shargoti are MUCH larger than a GCS. A Sharlin is almost as long as an ISD, and is far taller, though not as large volume wise. The fact that a Sharlin class cruiser can fire multiple weapons at the same time is irrelevent. The same volume of GCS would have many times the weapons output that a Sharlin has. The Borg could destroy Sharlins with only a few shots, and Sharlins are some of the most powerful ships in the ISA arsenal. In large numbers, they could destroy a few cubes, but they would lose a war horribly against the Borg.

So, my point is that while Federation weapons are more powerful, they seem to be limited to firing only 1 of each type of weapon at a time, with exception to the Defiant. B5 younger races, on the other hand, seem able to fire all of their weapons at any targets within those weapons firing arcs, as long as said weapons have reached their required recharge time. I also think its important to note that Federatio phasers do not appear to have to recharge. In other words, they appear to be able to fire continously as long as they are being fed power to do so. Some B5 beam weapons are able to fire in such a way, but for only a short time, at the cost of diverting energy from other weapons, & at the cost of having a slight increase in recharge time after the firing is complete.

The damage/time is still far lower in ISA ships than it is in a comparable volume of ST ships. This is especially true because ST ships use photon torpedoes as their primary armament, which are far more damaging than the weapons the ISA has. The ISA would still lose the war. BTW, most ships of comparable size to a GCS have not only far smaller firepower, but have also been only seen to fire one shot at a time (Vree saucers, Drazhi sunhawks, Brakiri, etc.) Many of them, in fact, have only weapons that are not turreted! Even the Shadow and Centauri capital ships have only fixed-axial weapons (not the Battlecrabs, but the corvette-analog).

[seanrobertson]

1. I put the B5 ship lengths down to show that B5 ships are not small.

Length is irrelevant when Borg cubes are not only longer, but are as wide and tall as they are long.

With respects Wolf, you're speaking from a viewpoint Michael has described as the "no math mentality." Try calculating the volume of an Omega-class destroyer, and compare *that* to a cube.

I know where you're coming from, bottom line, but I don't know of
anyone in B5 that's developed standard ships anywhere near on the
scale of Borg cubes. The Drakh might come close but their gigantic
battlewagons aren't seen very often. At the least, we've seen a few
dozen huge cubes.

And to those people who think, or have published information to the contrary, remember that the published "official" length for a Super-class Star Destroyer is 12,800 meters, which of course wrong. These lengths come from B5Tech.com who got them form Tim Earls, the CGI/Specail effects director of B5

More "official" junk. Did you know Tim Earls had NO part in the original
B5 series? I challenge you to find his name among that series' credits.
(He was involved in "Crusade" and is a talented artist, to be sure,
but his scaling work is a little...weird. Some of the figures he came
up with for DS9, for example, were rather odd.)

Anyway, what we see onscreen is canon--period. If a Whitestar looks
to be around 260m long *onscreen*, that is FAR beyond anything
Tim Earls can say about it afterwards. (And yes, the WSs aren't
anywhere near 475m long. That'd sorta defeat the whole premise
of it being so small, yet capable of forming jumpgates.)

2. Borg shield abilities seem to contradict themselves every damn time they are in an episode or movie.

Explain how this is so. Remember, we are treating what we see onscreen
as a "documentary" of sorts; i.e., what we see is *real.* Reality CANNOT
be inconsistent or contradictory. That's like suggesting humans will
breathe air one minute and water the next--total ludicridity.

Seanrobertson: you say that Phasers emit nadions through a plasma stream according to VGR episode "Flashback". Assuming that is true,

It is

then the Borg shields would be able to deflect or absorb any phaser fire, regardless of whether or not they would have had to be exposed to before, because they would have been exposed to a plasma discharge that you claim they can adapt to. Afterall there is a finite number of EM frequencies. Remeber Borg shields adapt, regardless of how they adapt, to EM Frequencies.

That's a big leap in logic. They can adapt to one phaser; therefore,
they can adapt to any phaser? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you,
but your point was that the Borg "could not adapt to plasma weapons."
Well, they DO adapt to plasma-based weapons: phasers. I don't know
what all the rest of that has to do with the price of Chinese tea, other
than to change the subject away from optimizing defenses toward
plasma weaponry.

Concerning the "upper-EM band" discharge: The blast would still have been made up of only a few specific frequncies.

A "few"? Were you not the person that said the Borg could only
adapt to ONE frequency at a time? Yes...I'm certain that I read that.
Mwahahaha

Plasma energy contains every conceivable EM frequency. If the Borg are invunerable to Plasma blasts, then no other energy weapon, regardless of type, will be able to damage them.

Sheer power does the trick if it's enough to overwhelm their shields.
Too bad very few weapons among the ISA have that kind of bite.
A bunch of the Narn's/Gaim's bombs would definitely help,
but they'd have to use a lot of them and get *very* close.

Seanrobertson, you are correct about the efectiveness of PhoTorp in the NTG episode "Q Who?". So I ask this of any ST writer, why in all later episode of NTG are PhoTorps the the most effective way to fight Borg vesssels?

They're not. Usually, the explode against the shields in a useless
display of fireworks. Only in "First Contact" did they crater out
a cube's hull--by all appearances *after* the cube's shields had
failed. (No disgrace there.)

If anything, phasers remain the best way to fight Borg ships.

The ST writers have completely flip-flopped what can hurt the Borg. Also PHoTorps & Q-Torps don't appaer to have the ability to have their frequencies changed.

Hmm...evidently, they can. Remember "ST: Generations"? I know,
it wasn't very good...you might try to forget most of it as I do

Anyway, a Bird-of-Prey matched her torpedos to the E-D's shield frequency, allowing them to pass through the latter's shield. Same story on outgoing torpedos: to avoid simply crashing into one's own shield, the torpedo
must be set to modulate at the shield's frequency.

Gotta go for now. Thanks for resisting

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Shadow]

<I="Mechwolf">However the key here is that Federation ships do not appear to be able to fire more than 1 phaser strip & 1 PhoTorp launcher (with max of 10 torps at a time-ST:TNG Tech Manual) at a time, with exception to the Defiant. Case in point: In DS9 (B5 rip-off) We see a Galaxy-class fly right into a Cardasian/Dominion battlegroup firing only it's dorsal saucer phaser array. If it was able to fire more than 1 phaser at a time, we should have seen it firing it's ventral saucer phaser array as well since it's target was within the firing arcs of both phaser arrays. Or at the very least, at a different target within the arc of the ventral saucer phaser array.</I>

The Enterprise fires multiple phaser arrays in "The Best of Both Worlds." Borg Cubes are 28 kilometers squared not 27.

[Master of Ossus]

That's not true about photon torpedoes not being able to destroy Borg cubes. In the very first episode with the Borg, a single photon torpedo did substantial damage to the Borg's superstructure.

BTW, perhaps they have flip-flopped because the Borg have adapted more completely to phaser fire? I think that the GCS usually fires only one array at a time so that it can concentrate all of its power at a single target, and a single part of that target. In BoBW remember that they were attempting to find the right frequency to damage the Borg.

No ISA ships have anywhere near the volume/firepower ratios of SF ships, even if we assume that only one phaser arc can fire at once. They certainly do not have the firepower of photon torpedoes at their disposal. Mines are a very unusual technique in B5--remember how surprised the Minbari and the Shadows were? The ISA clearly has no techniques that are capable of damaging the Borg. They just don't have the firepower or protection.

[Shadow]

That's not true about photon torpedoes not being able to destroy Borg cubes. In the very first episode with the Borg, a single photon torpedo did substantial damage to the Borg's superstructure.

Photon torpedoes had no effect in "Q Who."

BTW, perhaps they have flip-flopped because the Borg have adapted more completely to phaser fire? I think that the GCS usually fires only one array at a time so that it can concentrate all of its power at a single target, and a single part of that target. In BoBW remember that they were attempting to find the right frequency to damage the Borg.

This also happened with Voyager in "Night," where they were no frequencies involved. In both cases the captain said to fire all weapons. This is clear proof that Federation starships can fire multiple phaser arrays at once.