Battle of Endor Fleet Orbats

[knightwire]

I need a sd.net-fied Order of Battle of the Imperial Fleet for the Battle of Endor. (and eventualy a Rebel one as well.) The point is to first make up Vader's Death Squadron in 20k scale miniatures and then add enough to have the entire Endor fleet.

I see on Wookiepedia it lists:
===================
Executor
~40 Imperial Class SDs (Mark I & II)
1+ Tector Class SD
1 Imperial Communications Ship
3+ Victory Class SDs (Mark I & II)
1+ Immobilizer-418 Interdictors
===================

So my questions:

1) Is Wookiepedia accurate here?
2) Of the 40 SDs, how many would we speculate are actually Tectors?
3) Any guess/theory on the Communications ship being another EU class we know about? (i.e. Allegiance/Shockwave type hull?)
4) How many Victorys and Immobilizer-418s should I have?


Let's please refrain from any holy-war debates and the like. I need to decide how to actually represent this fleet with models I can put on a table, so some speculation and comprise will have to happen. You guys are suppose to be the experts so I'd like some advice on the best way to accomplish this.

Thanks,
knightwire

[VT-16]

There's more than likely more than one Tector SD, but judging from the fleet shot after Ackbar's "It's a trap", it's hard to say what is what, apart from the Executor.

The multibridged command tower seen in ROTJ, has dimensions at least twice the size of ISD towers, based on the Falcon's flyby. If the rest of the ship follows suit, it's at least 3,200 meters long, bigger than the Allegiance SSD from Dark Empire. If it is the Comm ship, that is.

[knightwire]

There's more than likely more than one Tector SD, but judging from the fleet shot after Ackbar's "It's a trap", it's hard to say what is what, apart from the Executor.

Yeah you're right about that. Realistically they used all ISD models for the ships, so we have to depart a little from the canon movie que and estimate what we think the Imperials would have/bring. VT-16 what would you speculate the ratio of ISDs/TSDs would be? (If someone was holding a hot poker to your nads.)

The multibridged command tower seen in ROTJ, has dimensions at least twice the size of ISD towers, based on the Falcon's flyby. If the rest of the ship follows suit, it's at least 3,200 meters long, bigger than the Allegiance SSD from Dark Empire. If it is the Comm ship, that is.

Hmm... Didn't know that tower was so much larger. I'm planning to do a ship called the Titan based from EvilleJedi's HW Mod that's 3100m to scale, but it's tower is the same size as the ISD. I'll probably have to drop the Comm ship from this little project.

[Lord Pounder]

Where did that Interdictor come from? The Rebel fleet was going to retreat when they saw the shield still up and there was never a memtion in the whole battle of the rebel fleet being in an interdiction field

[phongn]

Rebel fleet survivor estimates (based on the SE screenshots and the TaB book)

Image

Survivors
7 Anonymous Wingless + Home One cruisers (at least one H1 was destroyed by the DS2)
6 Liberty cruisers (at least one other was destroyed by the DS2)
14 transports (probably a bunch destroyed or used as fireships)
2 corvettes (no sign of the Y-Head corvette or a few others)
4 Nebulon-B frigates (at least 7 seen in an earlier phase of battle)
1 escort carrier (TaB)

About 24-36 fighters or so were in combat condition immediately post-battle

[knightwire]

Where did that Interdictor come from? The Rebel fleet was going to retreat when they saw the shield still up and there was never a memtion in the whole battle of the rebel fleet being in an interdiction field

It was listed on the Wookiepedia article.

You make a very good point. Is one Interdictor all that's needed to keep an entire fleet from hyping out? (I'm not sure how they work in the Star Wars universe.)

[knightwire]

Survivors
7 Anonymous Wingless + Home One cruisers (at least one H1 was destroyed by the DS2)
6 Liberty cruisers (at least one other was destroyed by the DS2)
14 transports (probably a bunch destroyed or used as fireships)
2 corvettes (no sign of the Y-Head corvette or a few others)
4 Nebulon-B frigates (at least 7 seen in an earlier phase of battle)
1 escort carrier (TaB)

About 24-36 fighters or so were in combat condition immediately post-battle

Great info. Thanks!

[Noble Ire]

Where did that Interdictor come from? The Rebel fleet was going to retreat when they saw the shield still up and there was never a memtion in the whole battle of the rebel fleet being in an interdiction field

It was listed on the Wookiepedia article.

You make a very good point. Is one Interdictor all that's needed to keep an entire fleet from hyping out? (I'm not sure how they work in the Star Wars universe.)

IIRC, there are generally about a dozen Interdictors needed to really cover a star system, although I would imagine less could be used if the flight paths of targets were known. However, I don't think a single Interdictor would be of much use; either none were there and Wiki is wrong, there was more than one, or the ship was attached to an ISD battlegroup and rode out the battle from the sidelines, unneeded.

[Cykeisme]

It's never explicitly stated anywhere, but I'd assume that if a capital ship was able to approach another similar sized ship at reasonable range, it would be able to lock its tractor beams onto it. This may have detrimental effects (or possibly make it impossible) for the latter ship to jump into hyperspace.

Considering how much larger capships are than starfighters (or the Falcon), I'd expect the effective targeting range of a tractor beam to be further when directed at a capital ship.

[Noble Ire]

It's never explicitly stated anywhere, but I'd assume that if a capital ship was able to approach another similar sized ship at reasonable range, it would be able to lock its tractor beams onto it. This may have detrimental effects (or possibly make it impossible) for the latter ship to jump into hyperspace.

Considering how much larger capships are than starfighters (or the Falcon), I'd expect the effective targeting range of a tractor beam to be further when directed at a capital ship.

Interdictors use gravity well projectors to stop ships, not tractor beams (although they do have them). Are you responding to something else?

[Hot Hands Harry]

For some reason I always believed that the Com ship also made gravity wells. So it could massively jam and prevent them jump to hyper space. So when it went up they could have tried to excape but at that point the tide of battle has turned.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Truce of Bakura Source book explicitly states that the Imperial fleet there was for containment and thus, the Interdictor cruisers were in entrapment formation to prevent the Rebel fleet from escaping.

[Spartan]

The DS2 had its own gravity well generators, no Interdictor was needed.

[Noble Ire]

The DS2 had its own gravity well generators, no Interdictor was needed.

I've never heard mention of them, although that does seem likely. Do you have a source?

However, even if it had them installed, they may not have been online, and even if they were, a small fleet Interdictors would still have been a good fallback, and have filled the holes a net cast by a single station would inevitably possess.

[StarshipTitanic]

The DS2 had its own gravity well generators, no Interdictor was needed.

I've never heard mention of them, although that does seem likely. Do you have a source?

However, even if it had them installed, they may not have been online, and even if they were, a small fleet Interdictors would still have been a good fallback, and have filled the holes a net cast by a single station would inevitably possess.

For instance, the massive blind spot created by the Forest Moon.

[FTeik]

Weren't the Interdictors placed at the edge of the system?

And i'm sure i read somewhere, that Interdictor-technology is related to tractor-beam-technology (and the Yuuzhan Vong use their dovin basals for both tasks, interdiction and tractoring).

[The Original Nex]

Gravity-well generators are related to tractor beams in the sense that both are gravitational and gravity manipulating pieces of technology. I believe the source is NJO Dark Tide I.

[Knife]

Rebel fleet survivor estimates (based on the SE screenshots and the TaB book)


Survivors
7 Anonymous Wingless + Home One cruisers (at least one H1 was destroyed by the DS2)
6 Liberty cruisers (at least one other was destroyed by the DS2)
14 transports (probably a bunch destroyed or used as fireships)
2 corvettes (no sign of the Y-Head corvette or a few others)
4 Nebulon-B frigates (at least 7 seen in an earlier phase of battle)
1 escort carrier (TaB)

About 24-36 fighters or so were in combat condition immediately post-battle

There should be at least two Home One type starcruisers that survived the battle. Home One herself, plus the starcruiser that flew the opposite flank of the Executor that Home One did durring the skirmish with the SSD.

[phongn]

There should be at least two Home One type starcruisers that survived the battle. Home One herself, plus the starcruiser that flew the opposite flank of the Executor that Home One did durring the skirmish with the SSD.

I know - but I didn't know how many H1s the Rebels brought along to the party so I typed in the mix. I probably should have stated that at least two H1s survived.

[Cykeisme]

Interdictors use gravity well projectors to stop ships, not tractor beams (although they do have them). Are you responding to something else?

Ah, sorry.

What I meant was that even in the absence of Interdictors, a capital ship should be able to hold another capital ship of similar mass and prevent it from jumping into hyperspace through the use of tractor beams. Logically, this may be limited to ships performing this action on other ships at a 1:1 ratio, or possibly depending on the masses of the various ships involved.

The Imperial fleet was both more numerous and more massive. I'm stipulating that, perhaps, tractor beams alone would have been sufficient at the Battle of Endor to make escape impossible for the Rebel Fleet. If this is the case, it's possible that Interdictors were neither neccessary, nor were any present (addressing the discussion about the presence or absence of Interdictors at Endor).

[Noble Ire]

Interdictors use gravity well projectors to stop ships, not tractor beams (although they do have them). Are you responding to something else?

Ah, sorry.

What I meant was that even in the absence of Interdictors, a capital ship should be able to hold another capital ship of similar mass and prevent it from jumping into hyperspace through the use of tractor beams. Logically, this may be limited to ships performing this action on other ships at a 1:1 ratio, or possibly depending on the masses of the various ships involved.

The Imperial fleet was both more numerous and more massive. I'm stipulating that, perhaps, tractor beams alone would have been sufficient at the Battle of Endor to make escape impossible for the Rebel Fleet. If this is the case, it's possible that Interdictors were neither neccessary, nor were any present (addressing the discussion about the presence or absence of Interdictors at Endor).

Of course, relying completely on Imperial capital ships to keep the fleet there would be rather foolhardy, especially if Interdictors were available. True, an ISD could probably halt a MC cruiser in it tracks by using such a tactic, but it would have devote all of it's resources to that single ship until it was destroyed, or be torn apart itself, taking it our of the fight for a period. Since there were a lot of Rebel ships, and even more fighters, losing blockading craft in such would make for a highly ineffective strategy.

And if you're suggesting that the ISDs could just set their tractor beams on "wide beam" and saturate the area, I think you may be overstating their capabilities. Every projector we've seen has been both focused and realitively close range.

[Stark]

It strikes me that we've had this discussion before and the rebels couldn't jump because of the physical arrangement of the moon, DS and fleet, not interdictors. Not that I'm saying DS doesn't have interdictors or whatever, but they were 'boxed in', something that would have been irrelevant if the Magic Field could just reach out and grab them.

PS, aren't interdiction fields pretty stupid? I mean, there's enough of a 'mass-shadow' to stop hyperspace, but ships can still move just the same. Does that make sense? Aren't mass-shadows gravity?

[Noble Ire]

It strikes me that we've had this discussion before and the rebels couldn't jump because of the physical arrangement of the moon, DS and fleet, not interdictors. Not that I'm saying DS doesn't have interdictors or whatever, but they were 'boxed in', something that would have been irrelevant if the Magic Field could just reach out and grab them.

That is true, but the Empire never really seemed to have much of a problem with overkill.

PS, aren't interdiction fields pretty stupid? I mean, there's enough of a 'mass-shadow' to stop hyperspace, but ships can still move just the same. Does that make sense? Aren't mass-shadows gravity?

Mass shadows are caused by gravity (hence the name), but they aren't actually "made up" of gravity themselves; gravity sources do something weird to tachyonic hyperspace that makes ships in it emerge or explode, but the gravity itself does not transfer over. Thus, you could theoretically trigger the effect in hyperspace by some other means; indeed, since artifical fields have a different effect on ships than natural ones (pulling a ship into realspace as a opposed to making it explode), that seems like a likely possibility. I would have no idea how they'd work though.

Edit: I just remembered a passage from one of the NJO books that indicates that Interdictor fields can actually cause the mass of vessels to increase somehow. After the Vong destroy Ithor, the Imperial fleet uses an Interdictor net to tag a damaged and fleeing Vong flagship and send it crashing into the planet's surface, IIRC.

[Stark]

Hurm. So they're kind-of 'magic jump stoppers' and kind-of 'super tractors' at the same time? I smell author confusion!

[Connor MacLeod]

Hurm. So they're kind-of 'magic jump stoppers' and kind-of 'super tractors' at the same time? I smell author confusion!

Uh yeah. tractor beams are gravitic devices, and so are interdictors. And we know that gravity wells sort of interfere with hyperdrive since ANH. I'm not sure what the fuck you're getting at aside from general bitching.