Dark Moose and KT Jelly Strike Again...

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-06-30 10:06am

Noble Ire wrote:
PayBack wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Forgive me, what is a "JOURNO"? Does that mean something in Mando'a?

Journalist.
Since when do journalists naturally have an aversion to reading (as she implies they do naturally)?

Probably because reading increases the risk of learning facts, which will get in the way of a good story.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-06-30 10:26am

Well, I haven't actually read any - started on a few, leafed through a few, but by and large, nada. Seriously. My inability to read is well known - I hate reading, and I can't absorb data from fiction.

How is "absorbing data from fiction" different from any other context when you're not reading mainly for enjoymen? Especially in a situation such as this when the reading should be about getting a feel for characters and understanding various phenomena etc. that have been established? How on Earth could such a person become a "journo" if she can't remember or process what she's reading?

Del Rey tried audiobooks for me, which I enjoyed as much as radio drama, but I didn't recall a damn thing.

Again, how could such a person become a "journo" if she can't absorb and process facts from reading or listening?

Basically, everything I get comes from the Holocron. Data. I process data. Once I see words, I start to edit.

This is rather serious. The Holocron is not a canon source by itself and how can she eg. understand and portray characters that have been established in the EU if she don't know how they've been portrayed (stylistically, verbally etc.) in the novels?

This is of course very interesting when it's seen in its proper context. It explains the total disregard for established canon and continuity, but what it doesn't explain is why the continuity editors are so lax.

Grasscutter · Post by **Grasscutter** » 2006-06-30 12:25pm

Mange wrote:
Basically, everything I get comes from the Holocron. Data. I process data. Once I see words, I start to edit.
This is rather serious. The Holocron is not a canon source by itself and how can she eg. understand and portray characters that have been established in the EU if she don't know how they've been portrayed (stylistically, verbally etc.) in the novels?

This is of course very interesting when it's seen in its proper context. It explains the total disregard for established canon and continuity, but what it doesn't explain is why the continuity editors are so lax.

Her comments suggest that Ms. Traviss has an enormous level of arrogance in regards to her writing. Everything that's been established is inconsequential. There's no reason to read other people's works for inspiration. Her view of things is the correct way, and if it conflicts with the works of other authors then those other authors are wrong.

Even if you're not writing stories in an established fictional setting, how can a writer not enjoy reading? How is one supposed to improve if they're not comparing their works to those of other people?

If her blog entries are any indication, she could use some improvement. I can't stand her posts, they're nothing but sentence fragments.

Pommpie · Post by **Pommpie** » 2006-06-30 01:07pm

Grasscutter wrote:Even if you're not writing stories in an established fictional setting, how can a writer not enjoy reading? How is one supposed to improve if they're not comparing their works to those of other people?

From what I've read, "lack of reading" is the least of her problems. Ranking somewhere behind "lack of basic math skills" and "lack of understanding of the fundamentals of social interaction".

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-06-30 03:57pm

In KT's defense, the apostrophe in Mando'a could be an ASCII-ised glottal stop (unicode character U+02BB -- ʻ). The mark is used in real earth languages, like Hawaiian, which has a glottal stop as a part of its consonant set. Klingon as well (using apostrophies for the orthography), which is why you see a lot of Klingon names and words with apostrophies.

Wait... Does KT Jelly even know what a glottal stop is?

Never mind.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-06-30 06:35pm

On one hand, since there's alot of material out there, it could be argued that Traviss shouldn't be expected to read everything...

But on the other hand, there are authors like John Ostrander, who read the entire NJO and Dark Nest (and the outlines of LotF) before embarking on Legacy, which isn't even prose. Say what you like about his work, the man at least has a tremendous amount of respect for established canon.

Hell, Jan Duursema even read everything Ostrander did, and she's just the artist.

It's not like this is an exception, either. Aaron Allston has gone on record as having read NJO and DN (and a bunch of others), as have most current authors. Even R A Salvator, who absolutely butchered both characterizations and continuity, at least read a few of the preceding novels. And this was at a period when Del Rey was seriously considering throwing out the Bantam continuity entirely.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-06-30 06:45pm

I think a big factor is that when someone has a love for the material, then the love shows through and makes for a higher quality product. Someone who wants nothing to do with the material obviously is just doing a job (which pretty much seems to be KT's take on Star Wars). There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but when added to the list of everything else that's happened, it just paints a clear picture that she doesn't love the material, she loves her material. For her, her material is sacrosanct, while everyone else's is dismissible.

Phil Skayhan · Post by **Phil Skayhan** » 2006-06-30 07:40pm

Sprinting the Marathon by Karen Traviss wrote:Some characters have been portrayed a certain way for years: do you stick with that? No, you can look at them anew. You can ask why some of the Jedi are hypocrites. You can look at Boba Fett as a two-dimensional Mr. Cool with a jetpack, or dig deeper and see him as a very damaged man utterly alienated from normal society by a bizarre childhood and brutal teenage years. It depends how much effort you want to expend. And the more effort you expend, the more readers appreciate it.

Here I have a question about what she later writes in the same article

Outside the Lucas universe, I’d have done my hard SF thing and shown what a disaster cloning was — high failure rates, developmental difficulties and all the problems inherent in cloning and raising a human army. But I couldn’t do that because the movies said that the cloned army worked just fine.

Not having read the books, did she adhere to this? Or did her prejudice about cloning creep into her further Star Wars writings?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-06-30 07:54pm

She wanted to write the clone army as a disaster, because that's 'hard SF'? Considering the SW tech level, if they couldn't clone a few million soldiers I'd be pretty surprised. What a retard... 'hard SF' = 'things being crap' or 'things being the way I imagine them'

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-06-30 07:55pm

Sprinting the Marathon by Karen Traviss wrote:Some characters have been portrayed a certain way for years: do you stick with that? No, you can look at them anew. You can ask why some of the Jedi are hypocrites. You can look at Boba Fett as a two-dimensional Mr. Cool with a jetpack, or dig deeper and see him as a very damaged man utterly alienated from normal society by a bizarre childhood and brutal teenage years. It depends how much effort you want to expend. And the more effort you expend, the more readers appreciate it.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Exploring this is an exceptionally good idea... but you also have to keep in mind how we know Boba Fett actually acts. Is it going to also be true to the Boba Fett we know, or is this going to be what she wants to see, damn everyone else? It is possible to add depth to someone without making them something other than what they have been. Alternatively, it's possible for you to show the character change in this direction, either starting with this premise and having him end at the known portrayal, or vice versa. So she has no love for Boba Fett, she has love for what she thinks Boba Fett should have been.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-30 08:16pm

She uses the word "realistic" the way creationists use the word "scientific". It doesn't mean what she thinks it means.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-06-30 08:38pm

You know, reading this whole fucking saga, of her whining about criticisms and showing herself such a talentless hack, again reminds me that anyone can write for SW.

It's enough to make me think I could do it, though I think I'd get my 'Heretic Of PSW' moniker back when some of my views trickle through.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-06-30 08:40pm

"Hard" science to Traviss is making aliens with multiple penises. I can't recall which book she did this in.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-06-30 09:02pm

Where does this ignorant twat get off pretending to know anything about science anyway? Does she have a science-related degree of any kind? Or does she treat science the way she treats the military, by acting as though any exposure to it is pretty much the same thing as membership in it?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-06-30 09:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:Where does this ignorant twat get off pretending to know anything about science anyway? Does she have a science-related degree of any kind? Or does she treat science the way she treats the military, by acting as though any exposure to it is pretty much the same thing as membership in it?

Well, you see, she can speed read at two pages a minute! She probably skimmed a few Scientific Americans and knew everything anyone would need to know! She's a VIP, she doesn't need any special education. Reading is for losers.[/Traviss Apologist]

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-06-30 09:13pm

Sonnenburg wrote:
Sprinting the Marathon by Karen Traviss wrote:Some characters have been portrayed a certain way for years: do you stick with that? No, you can look at them anew. You can ask why some of the Jedi are hypocrites. You can look at Boba Fett as a two-dimensional Mr. Cool with a jetpack, or dig deeper and see him as a very damaged man utterly alienated from normal society by a bizarre childhood and brutal teenage years. It depends how much effort you want to expend. And the more effort you expend, the more readers appreciate it.
This is exactly what I was talking about. Exploring this is an exceptionally good idea... but you also have to keep in mind how we know Boba Fett actually acts. Is it going to also be true to the Boba Fett we know, or is this going to be what she wants to see, damn everyone else? It is possible to add depth to someone without making them something other than what they have been. Alternatively, it's possible for you to show the character change in this direction, either starting with this premise and having him end at the known portrayal, or vice versa. So she has no love for Boba Fett, she has love for what she thinks Boba Fett should have been.

Keep in mind, this is the same person who boasted about how her SW character profiles are "surprisingly accurate"

Phil Skayhan · Post by **Phil Skayhan** » 2006-06-30 09:35pm

Darth Wong wrote:Does she have a science-related degree of any kind? Or does she treat science the way she treats the military, by acting as though any exposure to it is pretty much the same thing as membership in it?

Atlanta Science Fiction Society wrote:ASFS: What is your background education or training in ecological science?

Karen Traviss: None whatsoever. I have a general interest in all science and technology and I read science publications voraciously. I also collect scientist/engineer chums, who have been unstintingly generous with their time and have been wonderful about checking copy. I'm just a journalist, and if I have a specialty it's defense, politics and the emergency services. As we say over here, I don't do it, but I know a man who can...

And I also have to question: although she states "I am a journalist" more often than Strowbridge says "Fuck you", her bio is sketchy of who she worked for. I've seen BBC once I think but a search along that line was fruitless for me. Does anyone know of a news article written by her? Granted, she may not have written such an article for a long time and those may not be available on the internet to the casual searcher.

To put a better perspective on it, Mike, you say "I'm an engineer" all the time. Yet each time it is followed or preceded immediately by examples of this knowledge and why it is applicable to back it up (even without referencing the scan of your actual degree). I see no such evidence on her part.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-07-01 12:15am

Someone should come up with a KT Jelly drinking game. Take one drink every time she states she's "a journo".

Go skim her blogs, and you'll be soused pretty damned fast.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 01:54am

I have this sneaking suspicion that her "idea" about the Clone Army tried to copy the whoe "high tech super-soldiers" idea that you see in some sci fi (Ringo's books or Heinlein's "Starship troopers" novels.) This seems most evident in the manner she writes her Clone troop novels (look at all the massive technological tidbits they're supposed to possess.. Hell that Katarn armor is supposed to stand up to laser cannon fire..)

The problem is of course that your average Clonetrooper isn't a whole lot better than your average battle droid. (In fact, when you factor in upkeep and repair/medical spects, ,clonies are alot worse than droids.) That point was made as far back as the AOTC novelization, but evidently Traviss couldn't be bothered to read it.

To work out Traviss' "clone troopers" would have to be genetically enginered supermen or something, or at least have some uber-wank power-armor. In other words, Dark Troopers or a Space Marine or something. (of course, even then, you still have lots of "normal" grunts along with the "super-troops." )

Elfdart · Post by **Elfdart** » 2006-07-01 04:05am

Sonnenburg wrote:
Sprinting the Marathon by Karen Traviss wrote:Some characters have been portrayed a certain way for years: do you stick with that? No, you can look at them anew. You can ask why some of the Jedi are hypocrites. You can look at Boba Fett as a two-dimensional Mr. Cool with a jetpack, or dig deeper and see him as a very damaged man utterly alienated from normal society by a bizarre childhood and brutal teenage years. It depends how much effort you want to expend. And the more effort you expend, the more readers appreciate it.
This is exactly what I was talking about. Exploring this is an exceptionally good idea... but you also have to keep in mind how we know Boba Fett actually acts. Is it going to also be true to the Boba Fett we know, or is this going to be what she wants to see, damn everyone else? It is possible to add depth to someone without making them something other than what they have been. Alternatively, it's possible for you to show the character change in this direction, either starting with this premise and having him end at the known portrayal, or vice versa. So she has no love for Boba Fett, she has love for what she thinks Boba Fett should have been.

Why not just make up new characters?

That was a rhetorical question, by the way. Creating interesting new characters is far beyond Traviss' talents.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-01 04:36am

Lord Poe wrote:Someone should come up with a KT Jelly drinking game. Take one drink every time she states she's "a journo".

Go skim her blogs, and you'll be soused pretty damned fast.

Agreed. My first reaction to her blogs was that I immediately disliked the constant out-of-place and outright silly anecdotes that her blogs are sprinkled with, her constant "I'm so-and-so or I feel so-and-so because I'm a journo" (if you want to see her repeating the word in every other sentence, see this interview) and the constant claims of "abuse" (evidently, Traviss is of the opinion that it's "abuse" to only say that you don't like the Mandalorian aspects).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-01 07:30am

journo

I see now where we're getting silly words like "larty" and "Mando'a" from.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2006-07-01 07:35am

I'm so disgusted with this whole affair that I'm with Elfdart on this; she's like the biblical flood washing the entire, shitty, craptacular EU down the drain.

I can't wait for George to start slapping 'Infinities' logos on everything that he sees.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-07-01 07:47am

Elfdart wrote:Why not just make up new characters?

That was a rhetorical question, by the way. Creating interesting new characters is far beyond Traviss' talents.

I know it's rhetorical, but I'd like to address this anyway.

The Star Wars EU can certainly use some good new and interesting characters, and that would be a great contribution. Where I think part of that love of the character that I was talking about earlier comes in is seeing aspects of the character that have been otherwise neglected and exploring how they fit into the larger part of who they are. Exploring how the Boba Fett we see in the OT and the other parts of the EU came from what we saw in AOTC is an interesting idea, a way of adding a layer to it. If the story were set between those times, it might be a way of showing a change from whatever pathetic creature she starts him as into the legendary figure he will become. Otherwise, just seeing how this plays into who he now is.

What bothers me is that the whole approach may ignore both those and be "No, this is what Boba Fett really is" instead. And if that's the take, then by all means, screw it and make them a new character. After all, there's frickin' clones running around!

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-07-01 09:10am

Mange wrote:Agreed. My first reaction to her blogs was that I immediately disliked the constant out-of-place and outright silly anecdotes that her blogs are sprinkled with, her constant "I'm so-and-so or I feel so-and-so because I'm a journo" (if you want to see her repeating the word in every other sentence, see this interview) and the constant claims of "abuse" (evidently, Traviss is of the opinion that it's "abuse" to only say that you don't like the Mandalorian aspects).

Sounds like a GW Bush speech and the word "Freedom" and she abuses it as much too.