The entire USN turns up on Kamino...

[Stormbringer]

I see Manji has chosen to show us yet more pics of Iowa guns firing.#

Shall I crack out the BDZ picture? IIRC there is one somewhere...

Taken care of. They served no point and were too big, so I just stick them in as links.

[Manji]

Where was the Acclamator on Kamino?

When Obi wan is walking through the cloning area we get a close up a Clones marching up the boarding ramp of one.

I just re-watched all of the Kamino scenes on the DVD.

The thing they were marching into looked nothing like an Acclamator. It had large pillars at regular intervals (as opposed to the tripod landing gear of an Acclamaotr) the ramp was shorter and at a different angle etc.

Obviously they were just marching from one part of the same building to another. Training.

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... 49.jpg[img]

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... un.jpg[img]

Nice pictures, one LAAT missile has more firepower then every shell in an Iowa magazines.

No it doesn't. Its explosions can be clearly seen to be similar in power to a few pounds of HE.

[NecronLord]

Fuck this. Slave one + Ten seismic charges.

[Stormbringer]

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... 49.jpg[img]

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... un.jpg[img]

Nice pictures, one LAAT missile has more firepower then every shell in an Iowa magazines.

No it doesn't. Its explosions can be clearly seen to be similar in power to a few pounds of HE.

Oh, yes. Because we all know just looking at a scene without an calculations trumps figures and calculations. All hail, the great Elightener, Manji the Moronic!

[SirNitram]

One of these days, I will render an Everlasting Glory's full missile volley, just to post next to those silly Iowa shots.

But first I need to learn to render...

[Admiral Piett]

"Structures" meaning those large stilt-mounted complexes?
Iowa-class broadsides of 16" guns would devastate them.
Bombs (including bunker busters) dropped from USN planes would devastate them.
Cruise missiles fired from US ships and submarines will also wreak havoc on them.
And the SSBNs of course carry nukes, though those would probably not be used during the alpha strike.

The fact that hose structures must be enough strong to resist hurricanes that are probably far worse than those we find on our planet has not been occurred to you?

[Admiral Piett]

No it doesn't. Its explosions can be clearly seen to be similar in power to a few pounds of HE.

Slave one has weapons a firepower in the kilotons range,as it was clearly demonstrated during the asteroid chase scene (and please do not come here again saying that the weapons fired on the platform were not in the kilotons range,the beauty with direct energy weapons is exactly that they can be regulated for each target).It has also probably a deflector shield,that would protect it from all the proximity fuzed SAMs that are in service in the USNs.
Thus the little Boba would have a nice afternoon playing at sinking the USNs
with his father encouraging it.If the LAATs are available then even the clones would get some fun.

[Admiral Piett]

"Iowa-class broadsides of 16" guns would devastate them."

Sorry to give you the bad news,but they are not in service anymore.

Not that it makes a great difference in anyway,they would get their asses kicked exactly like the carriers and the cruisers.

[irishmick79]

I don't know. If Jeff Goldblum (the dude from jurassic park) got beamed down with the USN, the USN's life would be alot easier. They would just have to wait for Jeff to figure out a way to ressurect his shattered marraige with his ex-wife, find a way to smuggle a virus into Kamino's computer systems with Will Smith, and suddenly the USN would be in business.

[Admiral Piett]

To summarize
Jango Fett + Slave 1 lasers + USS Nimitz = fun
Boba Fett + Slave 1 sismic charges + USS Missouri = even more fun .

[Sea Skimmer]

Where was the Acclamator on Kamino?

When Obi wan is walking through the cloning area we get a close up a Clones marching up the boarding ramp of one.

I just re-watched all of the Kamino scenes on the DVD.

The thing they were marching into looked nothing like an Acclamator. It had large pillars at regular intervals (as opposed to the tripod landing gear of an Acclamaotr) the ramp was shorter and at a different angle etc.

Obviously they were just marching from one part of the same building to another. Training.

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... 49.jpg[img]

[img]http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship ... un.jpg[img]

Nice pictures, one LAAT missile has more firepower then every shell in an Iowa magazines.

No it doesn't. Its explosions can be clearly seen to be similar in power to a few pounds of HE.

ATOCICS lists blast effect missile as 100 kilotons, an 16/50 round has about one millionth the explosive power.

It also lists a half dozen other possibul weapons, and the magazine arrangement would allow for cycling through multiple types. Notice how the blasts when they hit the Coreships are much bigger then those of the hits on the rocket driod's.

[Manji]

ATOCICS lists blast effect missile as 100 kilotons, an 16/50 round has about one millionth the explosive power.

But we didn't see anything resembling a 100 kiloton explosion, or even a single kiloton.

100 kt would be about 6-7 times as powerful as the Hiroshima bomb. If the yield of the LAAT missiles had been anywhere near that, or even anywhere in the kiloton range, the screen would have been whited out and a massive shockwave would have propagated from the point of detonation. Instead we got the standard "movie explosion fireball", a few dozen meters wide at most (scaling against the TF core ships).

And don't even try to say variable yields - when attacking the core ships, they were trying to shoot down those starships, and they wouldn't have taken them for easy targets either - the missiles WOULD be set to maximum yeild.

Now, it's been a long-accepted principle of these vs debates that Canon > Official. You would be quite ready to say so yourself if it were in your favor. Therefore, you should not complain now that canon is overruling official in a way that hurts your argument.

It also lists a half dozen other possibul weapons, and the magazine arrangement would allow for cycling through multiple types. Notice how the blasts when they hit the Coreships are much bigger then those of the hits on the rocket driod's.

That may be. But even the heaviest displayed yield (against the core ships) was well below the nuclear-level yield of a KT or multi-KT explosion.

Here we have the missiles hurtling towards the ship:

http://www.geocities.com/manjitika/missiles1.txt

Here we have the impact and the beginning of the explosion:

http://www.geocities.com/manjitika/missiles2.txt

Here we have the explosion at its maximum seen extent (before the scene cut to Yoda arriving at the command post):

http://www.geocities.com/manjitika/missiles3.txt

At this point the explosion already appears pretty much spent.

Now, using the known diameter of the core ships (700 meters), we can deduce the size of the fireball:



There we have it. The LAAT missiles, at what without reasonable doubt would have been their maximum yield (since they were attempting to destroy escaping starships) explode with a fireball less than 100 meters in diameter. A fairly large HE explosion, (and I stand corrected on my earlier assertion about "a few pounds of HE"), but still absolutely NOWHERE near kiloton-level nuclear yields.

Such missiles would, in fact, be a threat to US warships. However one hit would be in no way garanteed to sink it.

[NecronLord]

They have penatrated the core ship before detonation.

[Manji]

They have penatrated the core ship before detonation.

Back up that assertion, please.

[Sea Skimmer]

They have penatrated the core ship before detonation.

Back up that assertion, please.

The heavy missiles are shaped charges; the blast is directed onward into the ship in a 2 degree cone. The blast we see outside is whatever part of the energy doesn’t get directed inward, no shaped charge is 100% effective, though these must be near it.

[Admiral Piett]

Such missiles would, in fact, be a threat to US warships. However one hit would be in no way garanteed to sink it.

No,it would simply either sink or put in such bad conditions any ship of cruiser/destroyer size that the Kamino's sea would finish it .Even if this was enough lucky to stay afloat it would be still mission killed.A carrier or a battleship would be mission killed and eventually sunk with few shots.The roofs of the main turrets of a Iowa class cannot even withstand current antitank missiles (or even a conventional freefall bomb for that matter), much less SW missiles,so they can be put out of use very easily and then used later for clonetrooper target's practice.
But that is irrilevant,Slave 1 has enough firepower to wipe out the USN.
It demonstrated firepower in the kiloton range during the asteroid chase scene and a Standard or Sea Sparrow missile exploding few meters away is not goint to hurt its deflector shield.Thus it would be a cakewalk.
Also I would not completely rule out the possibility of a SW equivalent of a shaped charge,maybe the bulk of the blast was directed toward the interior of the ship.Not that it makes any difference for this debate.

[Sea Skimmer]

Also I would not completely rule out the possibility of a SW equivalent of a shaped charge,maybe the bulk of the blast was directed toward the interior of the ship.Not that it makes any difference for this debate.

A shaped charge is exactly what they are. The page 23 fold out of AOTCICS both places the yield of one missile type at 100 kilotons and states its concentrated into a two degree cones.

[Manji]

OK. The basis of my stand has become much less sound. I will conceed that.

However: even if the quantity of the total yield that escaped into other arcs was only 1%, then with a 100kt yeild, that would mean that one kiloton, or the equivelant of a thousand tons of HE escaped outside the 2 degree cone. Given that a mere seven tons of HE (in the BLU-82 "daisycutter") creates a larger explosion than what was visible at the impact site, I still have doubts as to whether there was a 100 kiloton yield.

[SirNitram]

OK. The basis of my stand has become much less sound. I will conceed that.

However: even if the quantity of the total yield that escaped into other arcs was only 1%, then with a 100kt yeild, that would mean that one kiloton, or the equivelant of a thousand tons of HE escaped outside the 2 degree cone. Given that a mere seven tons of HE (in the BLU-82 "daisycutter") creates a larger explosion than what was visible at the impact site, I still have doubts as to whether there was a 100 kiloton yield.

Nevermind that the portion of the blast obscured by being directly into the starship is higher than 2%.. Anywhere from 40 degrees to 180, depending on depth of penetration.

[Cosmic Average]

Thought this picture would be appropriate for this thread..

[Howedar]

OK. The basis of my stand has become much less sound. I will conceed that.

However: even if the quantity of the total yield that escaped into other arcs was only 1%, then with a 100kt yeild, that would mean that one kiloton, or the equivelant of a thousand tons of HE escaped outside the 2 degree cone. Given that a mere seven tons of HE (in the BLU-82 "daisycutter") creates a larger explosion than what was visible at the impact site, I still have doubts as to whether there was a 100 kiloton yield.

You base this argument on a number you've pulled out of your 16-inc..., er, ass.