Battle of Endor Fleet Orbats

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-01 08:07pm

Yeah, couldn't be anything related to Ire's recent description of interdiction fields as magic gravity fields that stop jumps without disturbing regular motion, right? I'm not sure what the fuck you're getting at aside from general bitching.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 08:30pm

Stark wrote:Yeah, couldn't be anything related to Ire's recent description of interdiction fields as magic gravity fields that stop jumps without disturbing regular motion, right? I'm not sure what the fuck you're getting at aside from general bitching.

interdiction fields

Like the shadow masses, the gravitational fields of realspace bodies are felt by vessels in hyperspace. Uncontrolled passage through such a field might perturb the trajectory of the starship, potentially onto a hazardous course, and possibly into collision with the celestial body possessing the field. At best the ship would arrive somewhere far away from the expected destination. For these reasons all hyperdrive units are built with safety cut-out systems designed to abruptly yank the ship back to realspace whenever the gradient of a significant gravitational well is detected. Any ship already in hyperspace passing through a region dominated by the shadow of a significant gravity well is automatically returned to realspace by these standard safety systems.

Just to bolster your evidently selective reading comrphension, the hyperdrive detects what it thinks is a planet, engages the cutoff, and drops the ship out of hyperspace, with the engine itself providing the requisite "stop in motion"

How the hell can you be bitching about something if you evidently don' t understand the principles behind it?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-01 08:48pm

Hello? I wasn't bitching. I asked for clarification, Ire provided it. You're attacking my reading comphrehension... for an article that would have answered my questions, but wasn't linked to.

However, if interdictors create gravity gradients to encourage ships to drop out, wouldn't they have to be quite weak to not affect the motion of realspace ships?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-01 08:55pm

Just for clarification, I just reread the passage of Dark Tide II: Ruin I brought up. In order to stop the fleeing Vong capital ship, the Remnant Interdictor jumps in close to Ithor and "brought all four of its gravity well generators online, effectively doubling the mass of the planet" (presumably, this refers to the forces exerted on the ships nearby, not an actual physical increase in planetary mass). This slows the Vong ship and forces it to use its dovin bassals to try and counteract the effect, opening it to destruction at the hands of the rest of the fleet. The tactic is different than I remembered it, but the passage still suggests that Interdictors have some effect on realspace travel.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 08:56pm

Stark wrote:Hello? I wasn't bitching. I asked for clarification, Ire provided it. You're attacking my reading comphrehension... for an article that would have answered my questions, but wasn't linked to.

Stark wrote: Hurm. So they're kind-of 'magic jump stoppers' and kind-of 'super tractors' at the same time? I smell author confusion!

Smells like bitching to me. You evidently dont understand how the hyperdrive works, yet you are also bitching about how its described to work (and its effects.)

However, if interdictors create gravity gradients to encourage ships to drop out, wouldn't they have to be quite weak to not affect the motion of realspace ships?

Uh, gravity, being a field effect, varies in strength according to distance, remember? (and you don't need all that strong a gravity well to trigger the cutoff anyhow.) And since you need multiple gravity well proejctors/generators to provide the entire effect (and they, like tractor beams, can be directed effect.) its not impossible for the gravity fields to also be individually manipulated (they can simulate the mass of a star, or a planet.. or even form a black hole if they aren't controlled right.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 09:00pm

Noble Ire wrote:Just for clarification, I just reread the passage of Dark Tide II: Ruin I brought up. In order to stop the fleeing Vong capital ship, the Remnant Interdictor jumps in close to Ithor and "brought all four of its gravity well generators online, effectively doubling the mass of the planet". This slows the Vong ship and forces it to use its dovin bassals to try and counteract the effect, opening it to destruction at the hands of the rest of the fleet. The tactic is different than I remembered it, but the passage still suggests that Interdictors have some effect on realspace travel.

Yeah, it doesnt literally "double the mass" of the planet, it just increases the strength of the gravity well to interfere with its propulsive ability. It even says that. (basically what's happening is that its close enough to the planet to use its gravity well projectos to, in effect, create a second planetary-scale gravity well.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-01 09:02pm

Yeah, when Ire said an interdictor threw a ship into a planet that sounded dumb - it turns out that isn't what happened. That doesn't have ANYTHING to do with how hyperdrive works - it sounded like the Interdictor somehow tractored the ship and threw it into the planet without flying away itself. Hence 'author confusion', as it seemed authors were describing interdictors differently.

Hyperdrive safeties must drop a ship out at some distance from a suspected planet for interdictor fields to be able to cover so much space without very strong gravity effects near the generating ship (which I assume don't occur since interdictors sometimes work in fleets)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 09:11pm

Stark wrote:Yeah, when Ire said an interdictor threw a ship into a planet that sounded dumb - it turns out that isn't what happened. That doesn't have ANYTHING to do with how hyperdrive works - it sounded like the Interdictor somehow tractored the ship and threw it into the planet without flying away itself. Hence 'author confusion', as it seemed authors were describing interdictors differently.

No, he's not. They're using their gravity wells to interfere with the dovin basals. As I already pointed out, Interdictors are capable of generating focused fields of gravity (and arguably much stronger, since its quite liekly that the same gravity well of the planet is generated in a much smaller volume.)

Hyperdrive safeties must drop a ship out at some distance from a suspected planet for interdictor fields to be able to cover so much space without very strong gravity effects near the generating ship (which I assume don't occur since interdictors sometimes work in fleets)

As I said, the gravity well largely serves as a "warning" of a large mass in the path of the object in hyperspace, thereby activating the shutoff. (which can be very sudden given FTL velocities.) The distancee is going to be a function of the size/power of the field, as well as the speed/path of travel (including the relatavistic deceleration upon jumping out of hyperspace.)

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-01 09:23pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Just to bolster your evidently selective reading comrphension, the hyperdrive detects what it thinks is a planet, engages the cutoff, and drops the ship out of hyperspace, with the engine itself providing the requisite "stop in motion"

How the hell can you be bitching about something if you evidently don' t understand the principles behind it?

Even knowing the correct principles we have so much contradictory EU drivel about hyperdrive and how it works. Take for instance the recent relevations of the NEC; where we are told that in the early days of HS travel, they used one way Hyperspace cannons, and you used some sort of drag force to drop you back to real space without the use of a hyperdrive.

I suppose you could say that they used something akin to Dooku's Sailer, but its still wonky. And lets not forget the alternate HS dimensions, where time runs different. Or the canon AOTC novelization that states that once you jump to hyperspace you can't come back out until you reach you destination. Which, basically wipes out every single EU mention of an emergency cutoff; since its canon and not contradicted by any film. I'm no film purist, but sometimes you have to just disregard something to get a consistent SW Universe.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-01 09:30pm

Noble Ire wrote:

Spartan wrote:
The DS2 had its own gravity well generators, no Interdictor was needed.

I've never heard mention of them, although that does seem likely. Do you have a source?

However, even if it had them installed, they may not have been online, and even if they were, a small fleet Interdictors would still have been a good fallback, and have filled the holes a net cast by a single station would inevitably possess.

The original source was the WEG Deathstar Sourcebook, I believe there is also mention in the EGVV. Deathstar 2 was the original test bed for the gravity well generators, back when they were brand new post TESB technology. That's been retroconned now as interdictors appeared in KOTOR 4,000 years earlier; but it doesn't change that the DS2 had them.

As for whether they were functional. The Emperor canonically states that the DS was fully armed and operational. While, logically it makes sense. After all, how else could they have trapped the rebels. According to the fluff, the first imperial interdictor had yet to even be commisioned.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-01 09:38pm

Spartan wrote: Even knowing the correct principles we have so much contradictory EU drivel about hyperdrive and how it works. Take for instance the recent relevations of the NEC; where we are told that in the early days of HS travel, they used one way Hyperspace cannons, and you used some sort of drag force to drop you back to real space without the use of a hyperdrive.

Sounds more like how Curtis hypothetically indicated the Gree hyperdrives worked. Or for that matter, what would happen to the DS2 debris in the "Endor Holocaust" article, so it doesn't seem exactly unprecedented. (sounds more like the GAlaxy gun, in fact.)

I suppose you could say that they used something akin to Dooku's Sailer, but its still wonky.

The solar sailer doesn't use the sail to push a vessel into lightspeed AFAIK, they use exotic FTL radiation to provide propulsion to the craft.

And lets not forget the alternate HS dimensions, where time runs different.

The otherspace stuff? As I recall they described that as another "galaxy", not an alternate dimension per-se. (Not that they're actually clear about what it is or the mechanics about how it came about.)

Or the canon AOTC novelization that states that once you jump to hyperspace you can't come back out until you reach you destination.Which, basically wipes out every single EU mention of an emergency cutoff; since its canon and not contradicted by any film. I'm no film purist, but sometimes you have to just disregard something to get a consistent SW Universe.

You can't reset coordinates when in hyperspace. It doesn't say anything about modifying them or cutting the voyage off in mid-flight.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-01 09:49pm

Spartan wrote:As for whether they were functional. The Emperor canonically states that the DS was fully armed and operational. While, logically it makes sense. After all, how else could they have trapped the rebels. According to the fluff, the first imperial interdictor had yet to even be commisioned.

The Emperor was referring to the superlaser; obviously, the station was not really "fully armed and operational", even if it's main weapon worked. Heck, it was still only half built structurally, completely lacked an independant shield grid, and still had large holes in it's surface turbolaser system. It's gravity generators may have been installed and online, but even if they were, there could only be around half of it's full complement (simply because the others didn't have plate to be bolted to).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-02 06:40am

According to the fluff, the first imperial interdictor had yet to even be commisioned.

That's nonsensical, there's plenty of OT sources showing interdictors.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 08:20am

VT-16 wrote:

That's nonsensical, there's plenty of OT sources showing interdictors.

Nonsensical, yes. It also a huge realism problem as we'd have to believe that the idea neve occured to anyone in the Republic's 25,000 year history.

But...it was canon until the retrocon; and WEG history of the interdictor cruiser, preceded all those other references. At the time the only existed in the realm of games, with no attached back story. It took Zahn trilogy to really push them to the EU.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-02 08:40am

I fail to see what the problem is, interdictors existed all the way back in the KOTOR era, and in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, the new Empire even had a predecessor to the Immobilizer, complete with gravity well generators. Regardless of what WEG once wrote, that information has been retconned away.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 09:59am

Connor MacLeod wrote:

Sounds more like how Curtis hypothetically indicated the Gree hyperdrives worked. Or for that matter, what would happen to the DS2 debris in the , so it doesn't seem exactly unprecedented. (sounds more like the GAlaxy gun, in fact.)

Not really, as the quote in the "Endor Holocaust" article states that you only get back the mass-energy back in a real-space collision, not a viable space ship. The hyperspace cannon may sound similar to the Galaxy Gun at first, but galaxy gun missiles have a hyperdrive to jump them back across the barrier to real-space. The old hyper-cannon launched ships did not. The Gree had hypergates not hyperdrives; and those are inherently different as you need a second gate to revert to real-space at your destination.

The solar sailer doesn't use the sail to push a vessel into lightspeed AFAIK, they use exotic FTL radiation to provide propulsion to the craft.

Your correct, the sailer does use a hyperdrive to jump back and forth across the hyperspace barrier. The sail however gives it "an independence unknown in any other current spacefaring vehicle" Note that the AOTC:ICS entry states no range. I would speculate that the sailer is not dependent on ion engines to maintain a safe speed in hyperspace, and that it is not range limited.

Now the interesting here is that AOTC:ICS states that the sails came from the Gree Enclave! Further, entry states that the sail provides propulsion across the galaxy. Since the tachyon sail is anagulous to a solar sail, you should be able to use it to decelerate a vessel down from higher hyperspace velocities. Then babble your way back across the light-speed barrier. It would be a modern hyperdrive, but given that NEC specifies that the ships used "drag" to pull them out of hyperspace, it might be the best option.

The otherspace stuff? As I recall they described that as another "galaxy", not an alternate dimension per-se. (Not that they're actually clear about what it is or the mechanics about how it came about.)

It was not described as another "galaxy" to my knowledge. Early WEG specified that hypersapce was an actual alternate dimension where distances between points were shorter than in our dimension. That they describe hyperspace and real-space as not being co-linear fits the alternate dimension theory better; and I'm almost positive that there is a specific mention of hyperspace being an alternate dimension. I'll search my books for the quote.

You can't reset coordinates when in hyperspace. It doesn't say anything about modifying them or cutting the voyage off in mid-flight.

AOTC novelization Pg. 41:

"Obi-Wan gave a great and resigned sigh and sat down at the console, noting the coordinates Anakin had input. There was little the Jedi could do about it now, of course, for a hyperspace leap could not be reset once the jump to lightspeed had already been made."

His statement also implies that there is no safety cutoff in the event of entering a gravity well, since that would have allow the Jedi to cut the trip short (if the safety cut off can cause hyperspace reversion, so can a man pulling the handle). In any case it would seem to contradict the source prior to it such as Dark Empire that show you can alter course in hyperspace.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 10:07am

VT-16 wrote:

I fail to see what the problem is, interdictors existed all the way back in the KOTOR era, and in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader, the new Empire even had a predecessor to the Immobilizer, complete with gravity well generators. Regardless of what WEG once wrote, that information has been retconned away.

VT settle down buddy...I'd did mention that its all been retrocon'd in my initial post. I just think its just kind of funny. I did not say that it was accurate today. Mind you the fact that interdictors existed at the time, means nothing as their is no mention of any being at Endor.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 10:13am

Noble Ire wrote:

The Emperor was referring to the superlaser; obviously, the station was not really "fully armed and operational", even if it's main weapon worked. Heck, it was still only half built structurally, completely lacked an independant shield grid, and still had large holes in it's surface turbolaser system. It's gravity generators may have been installed and online, but even if they were, there could only be around half of it's full complement (simply because the others didn't have plate to be bolted to).

And we know this because you say so, right? I provided proof that the DS2 had gravity well projectors. I also have Palpy's statement that the station was fully armed and operational. What you have is speculation, which you can't prove by the way. The gravity well generators could well have beeb in the completed part of the structure you know. I expect that they are minor components compared to the hypermatter reactor and superlaser; which we no was working. Regardless, the burden on proof is on you to show that the generator were either, not installed or not functioning.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-02 11:39am

Spartan wrote: Even knowing the correct principles we have so much contradictory EU drivel about hyperdrive and how it works. Take for instance the recent relevations of the NEC; where we are told that in the early days of HS travel, they used one way Hyperspace cannons, and you used some sort of drag force to drop you back to real space without the use of a hyperdrive.

Since your ship can't provide the power to accelerate to the velocity needed to jump to lightspeed, get it from a stationary source. When near the destination, use a one shot job to get back to realspace. Deploy a magnetic sail to slow you down. problem solved.

I suppose you could say that they used something akin to Dooku's Sailer, but its still wonky. And lets not forget the alternate HS dimensions, where time runs different.

That is relativity, has nothing to do with dimensions

Or the canon AOTC novelization that states that once you jump to hyperspace you can't come back out until you reach you destination. Which, basically wipes out every single EU mention of an emergency cutoff; since its canon and not contradicted by any film. I'm no film purist, but sometimes you have to just disregard something to get a consistent SW Universe.

No, the actual quote from the AOTC novel fully meshes with what has been established already. No changing the endpoint. You can vary a tiny bit in the endpoint (Dark Empire, Corellian Trilogy) but not the general place.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-02 11:40am

Spartan wrote:Noble Ire wrote:
The Emperor was referring to the superlaser; obviously, the station was not really "fully armed and operational", even if it's main weapon worked. Heck, it was still only half built structurally, completely lacked an independant shield grid, and still had large holes in it's surface turbolaser system. It's gravity generators may have been installed and online, but even if they were, there could only be around half of it's full complement (simply because the others didn't have plate to be bolted to).
And we know this because you say so, right? I provided proof that the DS2 had gravity well projectors. I also have Palpy's statement that the station was fully armed and operational. What you have is speculation, which you can't prove by the way. The gravity well generators could well have beeb in the completed part of the structure you know. I expect that they are minor components compared to the hypermatter reactor and superlaser; which we no was working. Regardless, the burden on proof is on you to show that the generator were either, not installed or not functioning.

Truce at Bakura sourcebook state Interdictors at the edge of the system held the fleet there. If the generators on the DS2 wee working, the Interdictors would have been irrelevent. ergo, the generators on the DS2 wee not working.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-02 11:44am

The Original Nex wrote:Gravity-well generators are related to tractor beams in the sense that both are gravitational and gravity manipulating pieces of technology. I believe the source is NJO Dark Tide I.

Labyrinth of Evil states that sufficiently powerful tractor beams could prevent a ship from going to hyperspace. The thing was that there where no ships powerful enough to mount them. Given that an Immobilizer has star frigate reactor yet gets its ass kicked by fighters when it is using the generators, I'd say thats a fair assessment

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 12:10pm

Ender wrote:

Since your ship can't provide the power to accelerate to the velocity needed to jump to lightspeed, get it from a stationary source. When near the destination, use a one shot job to get back to realspace. Deploy a magnetic sail to slow you down. problem solved.

That's pretty much what I stated in a later post to Conner.

That is relativity, has nothing to do with dimensions

Not in this case as the text states that distances in hyperspace are shorter , than in the normal universe and calls it an alternate dimension. I don't see how you'd resolve that with Saxton's Theory of hyperspace. I'll get the quote, its old and crusty but its still out there.

No, the actual quote from the AOTC novel fully meshes with what has been established already. No changing the endpoint. You can vary a tiny bit in the endpoint (Dark Empire, Corellian Trilogy) but not the general place.

I don't see how that makes sense as of a very long jump even a tiny alteration in course would have you miss the original destination by dozens of light years. Why would you only be able to alter the very end point of the jump, rather than at any point after the transition? In Dark Empire they say nothing of the sort. Lando altered course, only after they intercepeted the imperial transmissions.

AOTC novelization Pg. 41:

"Obi-Wan gave a great and resigned sigh and sat down at the console, noting the coordinates Anakin had input. There was little the Jedi could do about it now, of course, for a hyperspace leap could not be reset once the jump to lightspeed had already been made."

I see any mention of an "end point" limitation there. plus if Obi-wan really wanted to change course he could use the "emergency brake" go to real space and then change course. In the context of the quote he couldn't. I'm not saying that it can't be rationalized, by much hoop jumping. But my original point was that its a blatant contradiction.

Truce at Bakura sourcebook state Interdictors at the edge of the system held the fleet there. If the generators on the DS2 wee working, the Interdictors would have been irrelevent. ergo, the generators on the DS2 wee not working.

I disagree, having the interdictors at the edge of the system would still be sound military thinking even if the DS2's interdiction generators were working. I know there are references to interdictiors throwing fields over entire systems, Centerpoint could for instance. But I seriously doubt a few interdictor cruisers could completely bottle up a system, seeing as they couldn't in the Thrawn triology. Besides which unless you have a source saying they were not working, harminization would require that both be fit in. You could definielty make the case that having the DS2 and a outsystem ring of interdictors would be sound strategy. I son't see how you draw the conculsion that the DS2 would make the interdictors irrelevant. The battlestation is immoblie afterall, and starships have out run interdictor fields in the past.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-02 12:46pm

Spartan wrote: Not in this case as the text states that distances in hyperspace are shorter , than in the normal universe and calls it an alternate dimension. I don't see how you'd resolve that with Saxton's Theory of hyperspace. I'll get the quote, its old and crusty but its still out there.

You said time, not distance

I don't see how that makes sense as of a very long jump even a tiny alteration in course would have you miss the original destination by dozens of light years. Why would you only be able to alter the very end point of the jump, rather than at any point after the transition?

Hard built saftey features just like the automatic cutout. Alter your course and hit a planet, goodbye planet.

In Dark Empire they say nothing of the sort. Lando altered course, only after they intercepeted the imperial transmissions.

Thank you for showing a complete lack of thinking ability. I point out that we have two sources showing minute changes can be made only at the endpoint, you decry that the source doesn't count becuase they only made a minute change at the endpoint

AOTC novelization Pg. 41:

"Obi-Wan gave a great and resigned sigh and sat down at the console, noting the coordinates Anakin had input. There was little the Jedi could do about it now, of course, for a hyperspace leap could not be reset once the jump to lightspeed had already been made."
I see any mention of an "end point" limitation there. plus if Obi-wan really wanted to change course he could use the "emergency brake" go to real space and then change course. In the context of the quote he couldn't. I'm not saying that it can't be rationalized, by much hoop jumping. But my original point was that its a blatant contradiction.

And my point is that you are an idiot. In FULL context its because Anakin's course drops them off just outside the atmosphere of Coruscant. Fuck around with that and you are at best going to land smack in the middle of the flight path of another ship. At worse you crash into the planet as a 214 teraton bomb.

That you can't reset the whole thing without dropping out of hyperspace is well known. They can't drop out early or fudge with the endpoint because they will hit something. And this is within the Coruscant system because Anakin is trying to shave a few hours of thier trip and the only reason for it to take that long is realspace travel.

I disagree, having the interdictors at the edge of the system would still be sound military thinking even if the DS2's interdiction generators were working. I know there are references to interdictiors throwing fields over entire systems, Centerpoint could for instance. But I seriously doubt a few interdictor cruisers could completely bottle up a system, seeing as they couldn't in the Thrawn triology. Besides which unless you have a source saying they were not working, harminization would require that both be fit in. You could definielty make the case that having the DS2 and a outsystem ring of interdictors would be sound strategy. I son't see how you draw the conculsion that the DS2 would make the interdictors irrelevant. The battlestation is immoblie afterall, and starships have out run interdictor fields in the past.

I see a lot of bullshit and bluster and no addressing my point.

The sourcebook says the Interdictors held them there. Not that they where there as back up. Not that they did it along with the DS2. That they and they alone did the holding. Explicit canon. So fuck off.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-07-02 01:30pm

You said time, not distance

Sorry, I did correct that in a later post.

Hard built saftey features just like the automatic cutout. Alter your course and hit a planet, goodbye planet.

That makes sense.

Thank you for showing a complete lack of thinking ability. I point out that we have two sources showing minute changes can be made only at the endpoint, you decry that the source doesn't count becuase they only made a minute change at the endpoint.

Conceded. I missed the part about the corellian trilogy.

And my point is that you are an idiot. In FULL context its because Anakin's course drops them off just outside the atmosphere of Coruscant. Fuck around with that and you are at best going to land smack in the middle of the flight path of another ship. At worse you crash into the planet as a 214 teraton bomb.

My point was they must be able to change course. No, need to be a dick about it. Thank you, for providing a reason why they don't do so.

That you can't reset the whole thing without dropping out of hyperspace is well known. They can't drop out early or fudge with the endpoint because they will hit something. And this is within the Coruscant system because Anakin is trying to shave a few hours of thier trip and the only reason for it to take that long is realspace travel.

Fine, in the context of the Coruscant system and the scene in question you explanation makes perfect sense.

The sourcebook says the Interdictors held them there. Not that they where there as back up. Not that they did it along with the DS2. That they and they alone did the holding. Explicit canon. So fuck off.

You should try to calm down Ender, I don't recall pissing in you coffee this morning. The Deathstar Sourcebook says the DS2 had interdiction genrators. Explicit canon. I want to see your quote that explicitly states that those interdictors alone did the holding. As I never said that the interdictors were specifically backup, it could have been a combination of Deathstar that held them. You also didn't address the fact that, you can out run an interdiction field. Or the fact that interdictors can only project diffuse fields in a spherical fashion. The stronger fields are projected conical at the intended target. Just how many interdictors do you propose the were at Endor that the rebels just happended to miss.