Just how evil is the Empire?

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-07-01 05:21pm

Obviously, if we took the EU as indisputably accurate, the Empire would be the worst regime imaginable. Each author seems to feel morally obligated to invent a new addition to the Emperor's lexicon of state-approved and institutionalised crimes, from "the Emperor wants to eat everyones' souls, and delights in deaths on enourmous scale" to "the Empire perpetrates and condones slavery, even slavery of human Imperial citizens."

The Empire presented in the movies is significantly different. And, given the fact that practically every EU book is written from a Rebel or New Republic perspective, and the quasi-canon nature of the EU, there is a rather significant reason to distrust the EU's accusations.

So, what is it that we know, either from the movies, or from the EU in such a way that it can be assumed with reasonable surety to be truth, or at least to likely be truth?

These things, I would advance, we can know to be true:

- Emperor Palpatine, Moff Tarkin, and Lord Vader are all certifyably bad people. They are each willing to sacrifice billions, or hundreds of billions, for their own personal advancement. Vader, at least, kills people on a whim, without even the presence of a goal.

- The Empire has no interest in home rule or self-determination. Too, it is expansionist and (gasp) imperialistic, eager to conquer any and all.

- The Empire as a whole, like its subordinates has no qualms with killing innocents by the multi-billions to further its goal of galactic domination.

- Torture of captives is standard fare.

Are there other things? How much should we trust the EU's representation? Just how evil is the Empire?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-07-01 05:30pm

The Empire has no respect for the soverignty of local planets or planetary governments.

The Emperor destroyed a free democratic government and is willing to trample democracy.

Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-07-01 05:52pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:The Emperor destroyed a free democratic government and is willing to trample democracy.

While it is sure that the Empire has destroyed many free democratic governments, if you're refering to the Old Republic, it was hardly democratic. Corporate states and autocracies seemed far more common.

Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.

Where does this information come from?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-01 06:06pm

Feil wrote:- Emperor Palpatine, Moff Tarkin, and Lord Vader are all certifyably bad people. They are each willing to sacrifice billions, or hundreds of billions, for their own personal advancement. Vader, at least, kills people on a whim, without even the presence of a goal.

Though the EU does vilify most Imperials, it actually portrays Vader in a more "gray" light than the other leaders, as is appropriate. Certainly, Vader can be a murderous psycho, and has very little tolerance for failure, but he also respects loyalty (he didn't kill Piett when the MF escaped at Bespin, although that van be attributed to many things), and even has bursts of limited mercy, like when he saved the Faleen homeworld from an industrial accident at an Imperial bioweapons facility, even though he didn't really have to (admittedly, he did ordered the planet's capitol destroyed to do so, but still).

Still, you are right; the EU may portray the Empire in a more negative light than the movies may intend. Nevertheless, though, the Empire was always intended to be aggressively, unsympathetically expansionistic, with no compunction against mass murder and torture. Alien prejudice and slavery is more questionable, although there are a few bits of evidence that may indicate it (we all know the "this thing" example, although I think ROTS provides a more concrete example of Imperial intent; immediately after the execution of Order 66, for no apparent reason, we see the Clone forces on Utapau forcefully detaining the planet's soldiers and leadership, even as CIS droids fight on. Of course, that can be interprited in many ways, but one of them is a disregard for the holdings of non-influential alien species; that can quickly escalate into slavery and racism).

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-07-01 06:11pm

Feil wrote:
Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.
Where does this information come from?

The trampling off Bespin and the fact that Lando says that the Empire may have nationalized all gas production.

JointStrikeFighter · Post by **JointStrikeFighter** » 2006-07-01 08:13pm

Feil wrote:

Quote:
Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.

Where does this information come from?

The trampling off Bespin and the fact that Lando says that the Empire may have nationalized all gas production.

All that is trampling is Free Enterpirise, not industry itself

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-07-01 08:23pm

JointStrikeFighter wrote:
Feil wrote:

Quote:
Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.

Where does this information come from?

The trampling off Bespin and the fact that Lando says that the Empire may have nationalized all gas production.
All that is trampling is Free Enterpirise, not industry itself

Han asked why the Emprie was not involved at Bespin and Lando replies that they were too small to matter, which means that the Empire has nationalized most of the Tibanna Gas industry.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-01 09:03pm

The Empire presented in the movies is significantly different.

How? We don't even see the Empire outside of Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine.

And, given the fact that practically every EU book is written from a Rebel or New Republic perspective, and the quasi-canon nature of the EU, there is a rather significant reason to distrust the EU's accusations.

The EU does go out of its way to portray the Empire as evil for the sake of evil (even giving ships stupid names like Corrupter

). However, lack of explicit support in the movies is not the same as a contradiction with the movies, so it's canon.

LongVin · Post by **LongVin** » 2006-07-01 09:06pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:
JointStrikeFighter wrote:
Feil wrote:

Quote:
Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.

Where does this information come from?

The trampling off Bespin and the fact that Lando says that the Empire may have nationalized all gas production.
All that is trampling is Free Enterpirise, not industry itself
Han asked why the Emprie was not involved at Bespin and Lando replies that they were too small to matter, which means that the Empire has nationalized most of the Tibanna Gas industry.

Couldn't that mean they were just too small to be regulated or have oversight put on them instead of full blown nationalization?

I could see the Empire putting an Imperial officer in every major company to make sure they don't sell their military supplies to rebel groups but still allowing them to function on their own.

As for the evilness of the Empire I think its blown out of proportion for obvious reasons being they did do bad things and nearly all the writing is done from the perspective of the Rebels or New Republic. I don't think the life of the average Imperial citizen was that bad and probably had to be comparable to life under the old republic or in some cases possibly better, afterall alot of worlds did go along with Imperial rule.

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-07-01 09:34pm

Jim Raynor wrote:
The Empire presented in the movies is significantly different.
How? We don't even see the Empire outside of Vader, Tarkin, and Palpatine.

True. Aside from the Emperor's obvious lack of a hatred for aliens given his actions in the PT, I guess all I'm going with is an unsupportable 'feeling' that things are different.

And, given the fact that practically every EU book is written from a Rebel or New Republic perspective, and the quasi-canon nature of the EU, there is a rather significant reason to distrust the EU's accusations.
The EU does go out of its way to portray the Empire as evil for the sake of evil (even giving ships stupid names like Corrupter ). However, lack of explicit support in the movies is not the same as a contradiction with the movies, so it's canon.

It's been my understanding that the EU is typically regarded as equivalent to 'historical fiction' with the movies as 'documentaries'. If this is the case, author intent--not of the real life author, but as the member of the side whose propaganda it is--would come into effect.

CDiehl · Post by **CDiehl** » 2006-07-01 10:06pm

I think of it this way. The Empire was horrible. It oppressed and destroyed countless people. Its leaders were often crazy, drunk with power or even sociopaths who happily took advantage of the situation to do what they wanted without punishment. However, there is no way that every last person who worked for the Empire or had dealings with it was an irredeemable monster. Most Imperials, especially at the lower levels, were just regular people doing a job and hoping for the best. Most of them probably never even got orders to shoot people or torture them, let alone actually doing them. If every Imperial was a mad-dog killer or a genocidal fanatic, the Empire could never last, and would end up wiping out most or all of the galaxy.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-07-01 11:07pm

Feil wrote:True. Aside from the Emperor's obvious lack of a hatred for aliens given his actions in the PT, I guess all I'm going with is an unsupportable 'feeling' that things are different.

The PT also outlined his treasonous and morally corrupt rise to power, including the ruinious Clone Wars. It's entirely possible that he was responsible for more deaths during that war than the relatively low-key struggle with the Rebels. This somehow improved your view of him and his Empire?!

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-07-02 12:49am

StarshipTitanic wrote:
Feil wrote:True. Aside from the Emperor's obvious lack of a hatred for aliens given his actions in the PT, I guess all I'm going with is an unsupportable 'feeling' that things are different.
The PT also outlined his treasonous and morally corrupt rise to power, including the ruinious Clone Wars. It's entirely possible that he was responsible for more deaths during that war than the relatively low-key struggle with the Rebels. This somehow improved your view of him and his Empire?!

My contention is not that the Empire is evil, but that the efforts by the EU to make the Empire seem more evil by ascribing to it every possible immorral government action ever concieved are baseless. It was pretty well settled when the Death Star blasted Aldaraan twenty minutes into Star Wars that there was no way the Empire could be anything but evil.

However, that the Empire is not only willing to commit mass murder and torture for the sake of expedience, but also hates women, aliens, and non-whites and actively enslaves his own population (even the human males)--and, moreover, that the Emperor is not just interested in becoming the greatest despot in history, but also in eating everyones' souls--seems to have no basis whatsoever in the movies, making it open to question.

And one aspect, at least--the Emperor's supposed hate for nonhumans and unwillingness to include them in his military and government--is demonstrated by the PT to be blatantly false.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2006-07-02 12:56am

Don't forget Biggs' statements to Luke about how the Empire had "already started to nationalize commerce in the centeral systems" and asking him what would happen if the Empire "took over" Owen's moisture farm, how he could end up as "nothing but a tenant, slaving for the greater glory of the Empire."

Of course this is from a deleted scene (viewable on Behind the Magic and other places), but it was actually filmed for the original Star Wars...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-02 12:57am

I think its worth noting that the EU tends to suggest that a great many people in the Empire and running the Empire were evil, but the idea of the Empire itself has, in some cases, been lionized. (I'm thinking of the Imperial Remnant and the evident future "resurgence" of the Empire.) We do have examples of alot of "good" or "decent" Imperials (even if some of them usually end up becoming Rebels.)

I don't think its *quite* honest to blame just the EU for the "Evil Empire" - they exacerbated the concept, but it was rather evident even in the secondary canon (numerous referencecs in the ANH novelization, for example.)

And to be frank, the Empire arose from the Republic (through the manipulations of Palpatine, of course.) The Republic was full of corruption and deceit (think of the Trade Federation in TPM, for one. The fact that slavery still existed and was tolerated in sections of the galaxy is another.) Even the Jedi were not quite so "ideally good" as portrayed.
And when Palpy comes to power and starts fucking around with things even moer than he did prior to the Clone Wars, things naturally get worse. (What do you expect from a guy who literally feeds off the Dark side and the life/death of others, with the ultimate goal of consuming the entire galaxy?)

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2006-07-02 02:06am

If going on author intent, at one point in the Empire Strikes Back commentaries Lucas actually refers to the Imperials as"The Nazis".

There is also the aforementioned deleted scene from the original Star Wars about the Empire not only nationalising industry, but essentially enslaving former workers (in this case, a human male) to work for them.

And while Tarkin, Vader, and Palpatine may be extremes of malice in the Empire, and there's no reason to believe that is so, they are still some of the most powerful men in the Empire, so naturally their malice would be the base of most policy.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-07-02 09:46am

LongVin wrote: Couldn't that mean they were just too small to be regulated or have oversight put on them instead of full blown nationalization?

I could see the Empire putting an Imperial officer in every major company to make sure they don't sell their military supplies to rebel groups but still allowing them to function on their own.

The novel explictly states that the Empire controls production and that Lando "deal" was to keep them out of the Empire grasp.

As for the evilness of the Empire I think its blown out of proportion for obvious reasons being they did do bad things and nearly all the writing is done from the perspective of the Rebels or New Republic. I don't think the life of the average Imperial citizen was that bad and probably had to be comparable to life under the old republic or in some cases possibly better, afterall alot of worlds did go along with Imperial rule.

Probably yes. But then again, as long as the economy is running ok, u don't really see an awful life for such citizens. Just look at Cuba, Iraq or any other number of functional dictatorships. Even the Soviet Union citizen enjoyed a better life compared to their Tzarist days..... well, after the economic and industrial disruptions of WW1, the civil war and WW2, and a buildup in the 50s.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2006-07-02 01:56pm

Noble Ire wrote:we all know the "this thing" example

I call bullshit on this one, actually (not against you; against the assumption that the Empire is racist because of this remark).

Recall Obi-Wan's response upon first seeing Jar-Jar Binks. "What's this?" To which Qui-Gon responds in a similarly derisive manner, "A local." Seems far more likely that this is simply a trait of Coruscanti, given their highly metropolitan life-style.

Wookiees in particular may have been further villified for their aid to the Jedi -- Yoda, specifically -- when Order 66 was handed down. Reading racism into it when one need not do so is begging the question.

The EU, of course, being what it is, took one little example and ran with it. Just like "shield generators."

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-07-04 04:57pm

The Empire is pretty damn evil in the movies, that's what's so cool about them, come on

Tarkin and Palpatine witty remarks are just pure gold

. As for the EU, I don't give a shit. Well, it is certainly lower canon, but I just don't like the EU in general anyway. Although I believe the racism is hinted at in the movies, with Rebels harboring all kinds of aliens while the Empire force is dominantly human.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-04 06:42pm

Of course the Galactic Empire is mostly evil; it was founded by evil people, run by evil people and exists for the benefit of evil people.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-07-07 05:28pm

Feil wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:The Emperor destroyed a free democratic government and is willing to trample democracy.
While it is sure that the Empire has destroyed many free democratic governments, if you're refering to the Old Republic, it was hardly democratic. Corporate states and autocracies seemed far more common.

Industry is trampled by Vader and the Emperor.
Where does this information come from?

Well for that one i would have Sidious and Maul trample Industries
(DM: Sabatour)

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-07-07 06:17pm

Big Orange wrote:Of course the Galactic Empire is mostly evil; it was founded by evil people, run by evil people and exists for the benefit of evil people.

But it's not as evil as Dr. Pepper.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2006-07-07 09:03pm

They blow up inhabited planets after offering no quarter. Nice guys those Imperials...

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2006-07-07 09:52pm

nightmare wrote:
Big Orange wrote:Of course the Galactic Empire is mostly evil; it was founded by evil people, run by evil people and exists for the benefit of evil people.
But it's not as evil as Dr. Pepper.

I disagree! Dr. Pepper is the Lando of Soda! He plays both sides of the cola wars and makes money both ways.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Just how evil is the Empire?

Just how evil is the Empire?

"Trampling Industry"