"There are no Atheists. They are dying with their shove

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-07-04 02:15am

Much like our beloved Iraqi Information Minister, some people just don't understand that people can believe in different things, or choose not to believe in others.

The recent issue of Mt. Solidad Cross in San Diego is an issue I've followed barely, but here's the gist: There's a cross on a public memorial, on state land. This of course, is an issue so there's a suit to have it removed or taken to private land.

Now, enter the right wing assholes. Radio, demogauges at the county faire, etc... All seem to declare this the work of 'supposed' Atheists, and attack the existance of Atheists at all as nothing more than 'whining children who are puffed up at God'.

Who gives them the right to be such immense, 'biblical-scale' pricks? How can anyone not actually legitimately see why there are Atheists to their judeo-christian religion, much in the same way they do not consider Ra, Thor or Zeus actual existing dieties?

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-07-04 02:28am

In the same way that you start from the assumption that what you perceive via your senses is the real world, these people start from the assumption that God is real and the Bible is his word. They feel about you the same way you would feel about people who denied that gravity existed--clearly it does, so they must be idiots or just denying it for the sake of denying it.

In other words, fundamentalists suffer from a form of insanity.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2006-07-04 02:29am

I think it's well established that logic and fundies don't get along. The best reply is to say all Christians are just angry with Allah/Zeus/Vishnu/etc.

Talanth · Post by **Talanth** » 2006-07-04 05:10am

Slightly OT: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the context of this.
You say there's a public mamorial on common land, and there's a cross as part of the mamorial. So why would anyone be fighting to remove a public mamorial (presumably a war mamorial, as I can't think of any other type) and what has the existance of a cross got to do with moving it?

Nephtys · Post by **Nephtys** » 2006-07-04 07:06am

Talanth wrote:Slightly OT: I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand the context of this.
You say there's a public mamorial on common land, and there's a cross as part of the mamorial. So why would anyone be fighting to remove a public mamorial (presumably a war mamorial, as I can't think of any other type) and what has the existance of a cross got to do with moving it?

It's a large cross that's visible for miles on a mountain, on federal land and maintained by federal money. That's the issue at hand. It's of course a war memorial.

NoXion · Post by **NoXion** » 2006-07-04 07:19am

Never mind the fact that not all soldiers are Christian...

LeftWingExtremist · Post by **LeftWingExtremist** » 2006-07-04 07:44am

NoXion wrote:Never mind the fact that not all soldiers are Christian...

How dare you suggest that the soldiers that die too keep our country christian and moral are anything but christian<fundie arsehat>

What I hate is that fundies always see things in two extremes, either you're a christian or you're and atheist.

Talanth · Post by **Talanth** » 2006-07-04 08:25am

Nephtys wrote:It's a large cross that's visible for miles on a mountain, on federal land and maintained by federal money. That's the issue at hand. It's of course a war memorial.

I still don't see what the problem is with having a cross. We have loads of mamorial crosses around the place here in GB. Admitedly normaly smaller and in the middle of vilages rather than huge and on mountains, but no-one has any problem with them. Quite the opposite in fact.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2006-07-04 08:32am

LeftWingExtremist wrote:What I hate is that fundies always see things in two extremes, either you're a christian or you're and atheist.

No, fundies don't believe in atheists. To them you're either a Christian or you're a Satan worshipper/accomplice.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-07-04 10:11am

No, fundies don't believe in atheists

Atheist' existance, unlike God's, does not require belief.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-07-04 11:06am

Talanth wrote:
Nephtys wrote:It's a large cross that's visible for miles on a mountain, on federal land and maintained by federal money. That's the issue at hand. It's of course a war memorial.
I still don't see what the problem is with having a cross. We have loads of mamorial crosses around the place here in GB. Admitedly normaly smaller and in the middle of vilages rather than huge and on mountains, but no-one has any problem with them. Quite the opposite in fact.

Sir, your location is listed as Exeter, UK by which I assume you are famillar with the Queen's English. It's memorial, not "mamorial", which conjures up in my mind the image of a giant plastic female breast nailed to a couple of 2x4's and jutting up from the landscape. Not likely outside of Los Angeles, California.

Anyhow - yes, it's a war memorial. Korean War, specifically. Folks really are getting their panties in a bunch over it, on both sides of the fence. Yes, crosses in public memorials really can be and more and more frequently are a bone of contention here in the US. Apparently not so in Europe where you live. This is a called a "cultural difference".

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-07-04 01:27pm

Talanth wrote:I still don't see what the problem is with having a cross. We have loads of mamorial crosses around the place here in GB. Admitedly normaly smaller and in the middle of vilages rather than huge and on mountains, but no-one has any problem with them. Quite the opposite in fact.

That's because we don't have a constitutionally defined separation between church and state (quite the opposite, in fact, the church was annexed by the state some centuries ago and the titular heads of church and state are the same person), and America does.

A religious symbol maintained by the Federal government in America is a tacit endorsement of one religion over all others, and is therefore not constitutional.

I can see the incredulity though, because although we don't have a constitutional separation from the church, we are as a nation far more secular than America. A cross in England is a long bit with a short bit across the top, and carries pretty much no other connotation for the vast majority.

Talanth · Post by **Talanth** » 2006-07-04 01:44pm

Broomstick wrote:...which conjures up in my mind the image of a giant plastic female breast nailed to a couple of 2x4's and jutting up from the landscape. Not likely outside of Los Angeles, California.

Sorry. Darned Dyslexia.

Interesting image though...

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2006-07-05 06:12am

Pablo Sanchez wrote:In other words, fundamentalists suffer from a form of insanity.

AFAIK, insanity is a legal rather than psychological term. Psychologically fundies would be 'delusional'. However, the classification of delusional in the DSM-IV states:

Delusion wrote:A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g. it is not an article of religious faith).

In other words, people in alien cults who believe wacky stuff about conspiracies and suicide-induced mothership-rendezvous are not actually delusional if there's enough of them. Get enough wackos together and they're considered perfectly healthy.

Eleas · Post by **Eleas** » 2006-07-05 11:07am

Winston Blake wrote: In other words, people in alien cults who believe wacky stuff about conspiracies and suicide-induced mothership-rendezvous are not actually delusional if there's enough of them. Get enough wackos together and they're considered perfectly healthy.

The words of "The Wise King" come to mind...

Kahlil Gibran wrote:Once there ruled in the distant city of Wirani a king who was both mighty and wise. And he was feared for his might and loved for his wisdom.
Now, in the heart of that city was a well, whose water was cool and crystalline, from which all the inhabitants drank, even the king and his courtiers; for there was no other well.
One night when all were asleep, a witch entered the city, and poured seven drops of strange liquid into the well, and said, "From this hour he who drinks this water shall become mad."
Next morning all the inhabitants, save the king and his lord chamberlain, drank from the well and became mad, even as the witch had foretold.
And during that day the people in the narrow streets and in the market places did naught but whisper to one another, "The king is mad. Our king and his lord chamberlain have lost their reason. Surely we cannot be ruled by a mad king. We must dethrone him."
That evening the king ordered a golden goblet to be filled from the well. And when it was brought to him he drank deeply, and gave it to his lord chamberlain to drink.
And there was great rejoicing in that distant city of Wirani, because its king and its lord chamberlain had regained their reason.

Lost Soal · Post by **Lost Soal** » 2006-07-05 02:32pm

Lagmonster wrote:
LeftWingExtremist wrote:What I hate is that fundies always see things in two extremes, either you're a christian or you're and atheist.
No, fundies don't believe in atheists. To them you're either a Christian or you're a Satan worshipper/accomplice.

If I'm only allowed one of those two choices, put me down as Satan worshipper.

I wonder if the federal government could have some real fun with these people. While these two groups are fighting over the presence of a cross, screw them both over and replace it with a Star of David or some other religious symbol.