Shouldn't Tarkin have been more prominent in the prequels?

[Galvatron]

Not in my version.

Darth Vader would be his birth name, nothing more. There's plenty of meat to the story already without having to resort to unnecessary twists, IMO. Not to mention the fact that it would require a herculean feat to conceal Vader's identity since I'd unambigiously show him killing Anakin.

I'd try like hell to preserve Yoda's identity, however.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Not in my version.

Darth Vader would be his birth name, nothing more. There's plenty of meat to the story already without having to resort to unnecessary twists, IMO. Not to mention the fact that it would require a herculean feat to conceal Vader's identity since I'd unambigiously show him killing Anakin.

I'd try like hell to preserve Yoda's identity, however.

Yoda isn't an assumed name nor was he ever supposed to be secret.

I mean you wouldn't know throughout the PT who was going to become Darth Vader. You'd assume Anakin, but it'd turn out Ben tells the truth and his friend knocked up his wife and kills him, before Ben takes him out.

[Galvatron]

Yoda isn't an assumed name nor was he ever supposed to be secret.

It was a surprise of a different sort to find out that this little green gnome is a powerful 800-year old Jedi Master. I'd try to leave Yoda out of the PT to preserve that revelation for episode 5.

I mean you wouldn't know throughout the PT who was going to become Darth Vader. You'd assume Anakin, but it'd turn out Ben tells the truth and his friend knocked up his wife and kills him, before Ben takes him out.

I'd make the story less self-aware and write it from the assumption that episodes 4-6 haven't been seen yet. From that POV, Vader's turn to evil and the main hero's death would be major unexpected plot twists.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It was a surprise of a different sort to find out that this little green gnome is a powerful 800-year old Jedi Master. I'd try to leave Yoda out of the PT to preserve that revelation for episode 5.

I don't think that's worth losing out on seeing why Yoda is a "great warrior" or who could have been the great sage who taught Old Ben the ways of the Force.

I'd make the story less self-aware and write it from the assumption that episodes 4-6 haven't been seen yet. From that POV, Vader's turn to evil and the main hero's death would be major unexpected plot twists.

See, but its all about trade-offs, just like I don't think Yoda's surprise is worth missing out on his backstory, I don't think making Ben's "you can't win Darth" literal isn't worth a surprise and deeper shades of meaning that work both ways.

[Galvatron]

I don't think that's worth losing out on seeing why Yoda is a "great warrior" or who could have been the great sage who taught Old Ben the ways of the Force.

I don't think anyone really assumed that Yoda was a "great warrior," except Luke, and that was before Yoda dispelled his preconceived notion of what a Jedi Master would be like.

I envision Yoda as being somewhat like Pai Mei from Kill Bill. His apprentices seek him out. They train on his home turf (the swamps of Dagobah). He's content with living a simple life amongst the flora and fauna of his natural habitat, versus the sterile confines of some techno-urban Jedi citadel.

See, but its all about trade-offs, just like I don't think Yoda's surprise is worth missing out on his backstory, I don't think making Ben's "you can't win Darth" literal isn't worth a surprise and deeper shades of meaning that work both ways.

It wasn't just Ben's "you can't win, Darth" line, but also "a young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil..." phrased as if that was his name when he was still a young Jedi under Ben's tutelage.

Again, Vader's turn is enough of a surprise by itself if you watch the saga in numerical order. No one expects one of the good guys to turn evil, just like they wouldn't expect the main hero to die by his hand.

I like the Emperor as the corruptor in the Force. Not to mention by TESB, he's already a Force sensitive - "There is a great disturbance in the Force." I would downplay his ALL POWERFUL ROXORZ political machinations. I'd make him a genius of manipulation and politics, to be sure, but a more natural tendency - the Sith are symbolic of the rot, the decadence, the corruption which always takes root during apathy or ignorance. Its opportunistic. He'd ride a movement - the technocratic and militaristic authoritarianism of Tarkin and his familiars, into power, permitted by the horrors of the Clone Wars, both which would be bred by systemic decay of the Republic and Jedi themselves. Not all caused by Palpatine.

I was remiss in addressing this before, but the reason I have such mixed feelings about Palpatine's depiction is mainly due to his reaction to Vader's suggestion about turning Luke to the dark side, as though it were some novel idea, and then actually asking "can it be done?"

Come again? This is supposed to be the same cackling "everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" master-manipulator that we saw in ROTJ? He's asking Vader if someone can be turned to the dark side? This uber Sith Lord who personally corrupted Vader himself?

I guess I can accept Palpatine as being Force-sensitive, but not as the "OMFG R0X0R" Wankatine he's become since his brief first appearance in TESB. That's why I'd prefer Tarkin to do most of the footwork in converting Vader. Sure, he's not a Force-user, but he doesn't really have to be. He just has to sour Vader against the Jedi.

[Cao Cao]

The idea of Anakin and Obi-Wan is good, but in my mind Vader has to be Anakin. Otherwise TESB doesn't make sense, and Vader is just another generic evil bad guy.

How does TESB not make sense if Vader isn't Anakin?

Then why would Vader obsessively search for Luke?
Why would he tell him that he is, in fact, his father?

And maybe you're too young to remember, but I recall how popular Vader was back in the late 70s when he "just another generic bad guy"; before he was Luke's father.

So? There was a time when the Joker from the 60s TV series was popular too. That doesn't mean he's one of the best villians out there.
ANH gave us the cool sinister guy with the helmet and the red laser sword, but TESB and RotJ gave us a true character with actual motivations and that, IMO, is why he remains so popular today.

[Galvatron]

Go back and reread my posts. I already said that Vader IS Luke's father.

[Elfdart]

I like the Emperor as the corruptor in the Force. Not to mention by TESB, he's already a Force sensitive - "There is a great disturbance in the Force." I would downplay his ALL POWERFUL ROXORZ political machinations. I'd make him a genius of manipulation and politics, to be sure, but a more natural tendency - the Sith are symbolic of the rot, the decadence, the corruption which always takes root during apathy or ignorance. Its opportunistic. He'd ride a movement - the technocratic and militaristic authoritarianism of Tarkin and his familiars, into power, permitted by the horrors of the Clone Wars, both which would be bred by systemic decay of the Republic and Jedi themselves. Not all caused by Palpatine.

I was remiss in addressing this before, but the reason I have such mixed feelings about Palpatine's depiction is mainly due to his reaction to Vader's suggestion about turning Luke to the dark side, as though it were some novel idea, and then actually asking "can it be done?"

Come again? This is supposed to be the same cackling "everything is proceeding as I have foreseen" master-manipulator that we saw in ROTJ? He's asking Vader if someone can be turned to the dark side? This uber Sith Lord who personally corrupted Vader himself?

He's subtly asking Vader "Can you do it?". Of course he knows it can be done. He's also probing Vader to see what he's up to. You'll notice that after the Emperor hesitates, he smiles and agrees. He knows what Vader is up to with Luke and decided to try to beat him to the punch. You're taking everything way too literally. Two devious individuals like Vader and Sidious aren't going lay their cards out in such an obvious manner.

[Crown]

How - in the name of Zeus' butthole - hasn't Vympel come in here and kicked all your hertic asses already

Hey Vymp, Code Grey man, Code Grey!

[Galvatron]

He's subtly asking Vader "Can you do it?". Of course he knows it can be done. He's also probing Vader to see what he's up to. You'll notice that after the Emperor hesitates, he smiles and agrees. He knows what Vader is up to with Luke and decided to try to beat him to the punch. You're taking everything way too literally. Two devious individuals like Vader and Sidious aren't going lay their cards out in such an obvious manner.

I'm sure you'll be happy to learn that the EU has demonstrated Vader's ability to turn others to the dark side long before Luke showed up.

No, I'm not hypocritically invoking the EU, just adding fuel to your grievance against it.

Have you earned your Corellian bloodstripes yet?

[The Prime Necromancer]

I'm sure you'll be happy to learn that the EU has demonstrated Vader's ability to turn others to the dark side long before Luke showed up.

But none of them were, you know, his son. That can make a difference, after all.

I have to agree with IP that I mostly like Palpatine's character, other than the wank that mostly comes from the EU. I figured when you forwarded the idea of the Emperor not being a Force user, or not being Vader's primary corruptor, you were referring to the earlier idea Lucas had for the character as a vain, pompous bureaucrat who was really being manipulated by men like Tarkin (a POV which is hinted at as late as the novelization of ANH, which also implied there were many "dark lords"; clearly no matter what Lucas says, the work has evolved in ways he had no plan for at the beginning).

But it was TESB, not ROTJ that pretty much changed the idea of the Emperor to a powerful force user. Or have you forgotten that Vader consistently addresses him as "My Master", which implies a teacher/student relationship, rather than the more regnal "Your Highness" or "Your Grace". Also, Vader tells Luke that the Emperor has forseen his destruction at Luke's hands. So, we're supposed to believe that the Emperor is clairvoyant enough to have visions of the future that Vader trusts as accurate (or at least likely), yet he is only "mildly force-sensitive"? The novelization goes even further and basically describes Vader as quaking in his boots at the thought of talking to him.

As for the rest. I agree with the idea of Tarkin playing a bigger role in the prequels. Not with the idea of him being Vader/Anakin's *primary* corruptor, though. Your idea of Yoda not being seen in the prequels is an interesting one. Other than the Palpatine fight, I don't think there's much of anything I would miss from him; indeed, as DW mentions in his analysis Yoda is basically the root of the problem with the Jedi, which is not a plot point I particularly care for. The idea of Vader being Luke's father but not Anakin is also interesting. Although, I would just prefer it if in RotJ when Luke confronts him, for Obi-Wan not to try to weasel out of it with the "point of view" bullshit and just admit that he lied to protect Luke, and that he's sorry but he felt it was the right decision.

[Elfdart]

I'm sure you'll be happy to learn that the EU has demonstrated Vader's ability to turn others to the dark side long before Luke showed up.

You know how to hurt someone, don't you? Why are you doing this to me? What have I ever done to you?

No, I'm not hypocritically invoking the EU, just adding fuel to your grievance against it.

Death, where is thy sting?

Have you earned your Corellian bloodstripes yet?

Of all the mindnumbingly stupid things in the EU, that one takes the cake and the ice cream, too. Three million clones for the whole war, the Executor being a bout a quarter or less than its actual size, Vader's zapped hand...

None of it kills brain cells like the idea of of a wanked-out explanation for the stripes on Han Solo's pants. Why couldn't the imbeciles who wrote that have been pumping gas while the DC Sniper was on the prowl? There's no justice in this world.

Stupidity is very much like the Dark Side: once you start down that road, you can't stop. Why, you'll end up trying to rationalize why a YELLOW stripe on Han Solo's pants represents a Corellian Blood thing or whatever. I feel lobotomized just thinking about it. Speaking of yellow lines, trying to make this "blood stripe" bullshit plausible is like putting a retarded kid in a round room and telling him to pee in a corner. It's fucking cruel.

[Galvatron]

But none of them were, you know, his son. That can make a difference, after all.

In my idealized version, Palpatine wouldn't know that Luke is Vader's son. He'd think, like everyone else, that he's actually the son of Skywalker. And this would concern Palpatine in the extreme because Anakin came close to killing him in Episode III, before Vader intercepted him.

Again, that's how it would go down in my version...

I have to agree with IP that I mostly like Palpatine's character, other than the wank that mostly comes from the EU.

I like Clive Revill's Palpatine. I never cared for McDiarmid's. I'd restore him to the way he looked and sounded in TESB. Far more menacing, IMO.

I figured when you forwarded the idea of the Emperor not being a Force user, or not being Vader's primary corruptor, you were referring to the earlier idea Lucas had for the character as a vain, pompous bureaucrat who was really being manipulated by men like Tarkin (a POV which is hinted at as late as the novelization of ANH, which also implied there were many "dark lords"; clearly no matter what Lucas says, the work has evolved in ways he had no plan for at the beginning).

That's part of it. My other motivation is to keep the Emperor off-screen. Tarkin would be his proxy. I'd postpone showing Palpatine in the flesh for as long as possible (perhaps not until Episode IX, as Gary Kurtz said was the original plan).

But it was TESB, not ROTJ that pretty much changed the idea of the Emperor to a powerful force user. Or have you forgotten that Vader consistently addresses him as "My Master", which implies a teacher/student relationship, rather than the more regnal "Your Highness" or "Your Grace". Also, Vader tells Luke that the Emperor has forseen his destruction at Luke's hands. So, we're supposed to believe that the Emperor is clairvoyant enough to have visions of the future that Vader trusts as accurate (or at least likely), yet he is only "mildly force-sensitive"? The novelization goes even further and basically describes Vader as quaking in his boots at the thought of talking to him.

True enough, I stand corrected.

As for the rest. I agree with the idea of Tarkin playing a bigger role in the prequels. Not with the idea of him being Vader/Anakin's *primary* corruptor, though.

I don't see why not. All Tarkin has to do is influence Vader, not train him in "the Sith arts." I'd emphasize Vader's approval of Tarkin's Machiavellian tactics against the enemy. This would, of course, put him at odds with the Jedi. I'm sure you can imagine what follows...

Your idea of Yoda not being seen in the prequels is an interesting one. Other than the Palpatine fight, I don't think there's much of anything I would miss from him; indeed, as DW mentions in his analysis Yoda is basically the root of the problem with the Jedi, which is not a plot point I particularly care for.

Yep, leaving Yoda out of the prequels entirely would prevent that. Then again, I wouldn't portray the other Jedi as being arrogant dicks either.

The idea of Vader being Luke's father but not Anakin is also interesting. Although, I would just prefer it if in RotJ when Luke confronts him, for Obi-Wan not to try to weasel out of it with the "point of view" bullshit and just admit that he lied to protect Luke, and that he's sorry but he felt it was the right decision.

I don't like the idea that Obi-Wan was willfully dishonest with Luke. His "that boy is our last hope" line always indicated to me that there were things he was simply unaware of, such as the existence of yet another offspring of Skywalker's (and the fact that it was really Vader's).

[Illuminatus Primus]

One of my pet peeves with original ideas for the Emperor not as a Force user is why would a Dark Lord of the Sith, having accomplished the annhiliation of the Jedi and the subjugation of a previously civilized and free galaxy, bother with some foppish idiot as a figurehead? We see Vader's menace and lack of subtlety, it was quite enough on Palpatine's part that he retained the pretense that he himself was not a Sith. Of course the Sith Master would take the throne.

[Galvatron]

Okay, I'm convinced to abandon the idea of a Forceless Palpatine. It doesn't really affect the rest of the story as I've imagined it.

[000]

Elfdart, the yellow piping represents the Corellian Bloodstripes, Second Class. It's the First Class award that the red piping represents.

Solo, of course, earned both levels of the award, and so was qualified to wear either at his discretion.

[Galvatron]

Elfdart, the yellow piping represents the Corellian Bloodstripes, Second Class. It's the First Class award that the red piping represents.

Solo, of course, earned both levels of the award, and so was qualified to wear either at his discretion.

Really?

[000]

Ah. I was unaware the Elfdart was already aware.

[Mark S]

For myself, I too feel that Trakin should have been portrayed in the prequels. Whether he and Vader were on the same political level or not, he still felt he had power enough to order Vader around and Vader took it like we never saw him do since. It would have been nice to see why.

In fact, I agree that he should have been in the prequels so much so that I wrote him into my rewrites.

[Galvatron]

Rewrites?

[Mark S]

Rewrites?

Yeah. You can find "The Phantom Rewrite" and "Attack of the Rewrites" in the fanfiction forum. Probably a couple pages back by now. "Revenge of the Rewrites" I'm still working on... slowly. They're nothing like what you are invisioning for yours but they got positive feedback. In them, Tarkin takes the place of some of the other leading antagonists in the actual movies and I think will make Palpatine's betrayal of the people even sweeter when he is appointed the head of the council of governors despite basically being a war criminal.

[Tychu]

The prequels were about the rise of Palpatine, the fall of the Republic, the fall of Anakin and the extermination of the Jedi. While Tarkin could have been worked into that, its not a necessity.

To be honest, I'd have preferred Tarkin as the primary corruptor of Darth Vader to Palpatine.

why i never saw Tarkin as evil or a bad man.
He always seemed like he loved his job thats all. He was given power and he did everything that he should have done. He followed the rules that were given to him. Only his aragance defeated him

Palpatine was just evil, plain and simple

[Galvatron]

He wouldn't have to be. My Tarkin would just be a hawkish admiral who employs brutal tactics against the enemy.

I'd end my Episode II with Tarkin's fleet BDZing Mandalore, to the horror of Obi-Wan and Anakin. Vader approves of Tarkin's decision, seeing it as a necessary means to achieve peace.

I really don't think that Vader needs a Force-sensitive person to corrupt him. Afterall, Yoda made it perfectly clear that anger, fear and aggression are enough to turn a Jedi to the dark side.