Admiral Piett and Executor stay in the fight.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » 2006-07-04 10:20pm

Due to maintenance problems, an Interceptor sqaudron is unable to launch till late in the battle and the Captain orders them to protect the command tower from any opportunistic fighters. Thus they manage to stop those two A-wings from hitting the sensor dome and nail Arvel before he crashes into the bridge just before the shield goes back up. How does this affect the battle and post battle?

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2006-07-04 10:25pm

What makes you think the shield would go back up? The rebel cruisers were concentrating all their fire on the Executor at that point. It was doomed either way, IMO.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-07-04 10:28pm

The shields aren't going back up because the entire Rebel fleet is hammering the Executor. The ship gets torn apart from turbolaser fire.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-04 10:33pm

With a Starcruiser on it's port side with two escorting wingless Mon Cal ships pounding and another Starcruiser and an escorting wingless Mon Cal on the starboard side, whether or not the A-wing crushed the bridge would have been moot.

All it did was save the Rebels time, and they could focus their firepower on other targets rather than continue the slugging match with Executor. With her shields down, the two Starcruisers and their escorts could have raped the giant ship, including the bridge.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2006-07-04 10:46pm

If the shield was dropped by pure firepower, Executor is still toast

If it was dropped by a 'lucky' hit and the shield was restorable, it's debatable

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-04 11:15pm

Knife wrote: All it did was save the Rebels time, <snip>

Time they may not have had, considering there were what, 40 ISD's trying to kill them? Also Piett was concerned about "anything getting through" and didn't seem concerned with TL fire (as increasing forward firepower wouldn't have stopped incoming TL fire), so is it not possible they'd only lost their particle shields?

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-04 11:19pm

PayBack wrote:
Knife wrote: All it did was save the Rebels time, <snip>
Time they may not have had, considering there were what, 40 ISD's trying to kill them? Also Piett was concerned about "anything getting through" and didn't seem concerned with TL fire, so is it not possible they'd only lost their particle shields?

Er... I would point out that only the ray shields could be affected by heavy turbolaser fire.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-04 11:22pm

Since when? If you take out a particle shield projector or generator, the particle shield goes down, and it is possible to take them out without taking out the bridge ray shields. Seriously if they'd lost the bridge ray shields and were being hammered by TL fire from 5 destroyer sized ships, he certainly wouldn't have voiced his main concern being fighters getting through.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-04 11:24pm

PayBack wrote:Since when? If you take out a particle shield projector or generator, the particle shield goes down, and it is possible to take them out without taking out the bridge ray shields.

That assumes that the particle shield comes down, after you overwhelm it with warheads.

As such, the only possible source of such warheads are the starfighters, which I would further point out have zero chance of overwhelming the particle shields.

Perhaps Piett was afraid a squadron of B-wings would come along and torp the Bridge?

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-04 11:30pm

Why do you assume the particle shield generators/prjectors couldn't have been taken out by TL fire? Just because an area of shield has been hit by TL fire to the point that a system it's protecting can be damaged, doesn't mean the ray shielding has gone down for the whole ship, or even the bridge.

And explain to me why Pietts main concern was fighters getting through to the bridge? He can't have expected to stop incoming TL fire by increasing his own forward firepower (unless you think he was holding back on the enemy cap ships and thought increasing the firepower would take them out before their TL's could take out the bridge?).

I have a serious problem with 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers taking out a 19KM dreadnought while 40 ISD's are hammering away at the attackers, which is why I felt they needed luck.

(then again I also have a serious problem with a ship that size not having a secondary internal battle bridge)

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-04 11:42pm

PayBack wrote:Why do you assume the particle shield generators/prjectors couldn't have been taken out by TL fire? Just because an area of shield has been hit by TL fire to the point that a system it's protecting can be damaged, doesn't mean the ray shielding has gone down for the whole ship, or even the bridge.

And explain to me why Pietts main concern was fighters getting through to the bridge? He can't have expected to stop incoming TL fire by increasing his own forward firepower (unless you think he was holding back on the enemy cap ships and thought increasing the firepower would take them out before their TL's could take out the bridge?).

I have a serious problem with 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers taking out a 19KM dreadnought while 40 ISD's are hammering away at the attackers, which is why I felt they needed luck.

(then again I also have a serious problem with a ship that size not having a secondary internal battle bridge)

*wonders why we are even revisiting this damn old debate*

1. The A-wings destroyed the sensor/shield dome. That implies the ray shields in that area are down. Savvy? Furthermore, the HTL fire obvious brought down the ray shields in that area at least. No one here has said the whole bloody ship's shields are down. So stop putting words in their mouths.

2. No doubt the Particle shields were also down, since the A-wing crashed through the viewscreen. If the particle shields are down due to HTL fire, we don't know if that is true, though the sensor dome could house the particle shield projects and the ray shield projectors which is more likely the case. No one made the assumption that the particle shields couldn't be take out by HTL though HTLs aren't meant for such precision work but rather to tear the guts of an enemy warship out indiscriminately. As such, I don't even know where the kriffing generators are.

3. Piett could be saying to divert the batteries from firing at other places to the forward of the ship.

4. Of the many great mysteries of the Battle of Endor would be the possible incompetence of the Imperial Captains, or the vastly reduced firepower stats given by WEG for the Mon Cal cruisers. I doubt containment means sitting there and letting oneself get shot to pieces.

5. The damn ship does have a secondary bridge and that was mentioned in countless books.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-05 12:23am

PayBack wrote:Why do you assume the particle shield generators/prjectors couldn't have been taken out by TL fire? Just because an area of shield has been hit by TL fire to the point that a system it's protecting can be damaged, doesn't mean the ray shielding has gone down for the whole ship, or even the bridge.

And explain to me why Pietts main concern was fighters getting through to the bridge? He can't have expected to stop incoming TL fire by increasing his own forward firepower (unless you think he was holding back on the enemy cap ships and thought increasing the firepower would take them out before their TL's could take out the bridge?).

I have a serious problem with 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers taking out a 19KM dreadnought while 40 ISD's are hammering away at the attackers, which is why I felt they needed luck.

(then again I also have a serious problem with a ship that size not having a secondary internal battle bridge)

Piett ordered 'intensify forward firepower' but that doesn't necessarily mean he was trying to knock out the fighters, rather he could have been trying to surpress the enemy cap ships cloing in on his ass. In the very scene where he orders more firepower, you can plainly see two of the wingless Mon Cal ships right outside of the bridge viewport.

If the SSD did loose it's shields, intensifying forward firepower on the ships, atleast five capships, right in front of the Executor to surpress them makes a lot of sense.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-05 12:48am

Knife wrote:
PayBack wrote:Why do you assume the particle shield generators/prjectors couldn't have been taken out by TL fire? Just because an area of shield has been hit by TL fire to the point that a system it's protecting can be damaged, doesn't mean the ray shielding has gone down for the whole ship, or even the bridge.

And explain to me why Pietts main concern was fighters getting through to the bridge? He can't have expected to stop incoming TL fire by increasing his own forward firepower (unless you think he was holding back on the enemy cap ships and thought increasing the firepower would take them out before their TL's could take out the bridge?).

I have a serious problem with 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers taking out a 19KM dreadnought while 40 ISD's are hammering away at the attackers, which is why I felt they needed luck.

(then again I also have a serious problem with a ship that size not having a secondary internal battle bridge)
Piett ordered 'intensify forward firepower' but that doesn't necessarily mean he was trying to knock out the fighters, rather he could have been trying to suppress the enemy cap ships cloing in on his ass. In the very scene where he orders more firepower, you can plainly see two of the wingless Mon Cal ships right outside of the bridge viewport.

If the SSD did loose it's shields, intensifying forward firepower on the ships, atleast five capships, right in front of the Executor to suppress them makes a lot of sense.

Perhaps, but then if that were the case, what doesn't make sense is that he was then NOT using all available means to knock out the cap ships that had just been hitting him with enough power to take out his shields. If your forward bridge shields are about to fail, you don't ignore the ships most able to fry your ass until AFTER the shields are down.

I honestly believe it makes more sense for it to have been bad luck (as implied by the movie IMNSHO) than have 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers take out a Dreadnought protected by 30+ destroyers. Especially as the ISD captains probably wouldn't be keen on explaining to Vader how they let his ship get blown up. The Rebel fighters were badly outnumbered by Imperial fighters so it'd be crazy to think all 40 ISD's were too busy to assist the Executor.

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-05 12:58am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote: *wonders why we are even revisiting this damn old debate*

1. The A-wings destroyed the sensor/shield dome. That implies the ray shields in that area are down. Savvy? Furthermore, the HTL fire obvious brought down the ray shields in that area at least. No one here has said the whole bloody ship's shields are down. So stop putting words in their mouths.

2. No doubt the Particle shields were also down, since the A-wing crashed through the viewscreen. If the particle shields are down due to HTL fire, we don't know if that is true, though the sensor dome could house the particle shield projects and the ray shield projectors which is more likely the case. No one made the assumption that the particle shields couldn't be take out by HTL though HTLs aren't meant for such precision work but rather to tear the guts of an enemy warship out indiscriminately. As such, I don't even know where the kriffing generators are.

3. Piett could be saying to divert the batteries from firing at other places to the forward of the ship.

4. Of the many great mysteries of the Battle of Endor would be the possible incompetence of the Imperial Captains, or the vastly reduced firepower stats given by WEG for the Mon Cal cruisers. I doubt containment means sitting there and letting oneself get shot to pieces.

5. The damn ship does have a secondary bridge and that was mentioned in countless books.

1. Having the Dome shields = All of the bridge shields is a bit of a jump don't you think? And I didn't put words in anyone's mouths, I distinguished the bridge from the rest of the ship, I was merely distinguishing between the loss of one not meaning the loss of all or others.

2. I think Saxton has covered the globes and pretty much put to bed the idea of them being, or housing shield projectors, though it's been some time since I've read it.

3. Well ummm yes, that's what I assumed. However see my comment in reply to knife as to why I think it's crazy if his intention was to take out the cap ships in front of him. Especially if 5 of them have the power to take his ship out WITH shields.

4. Exactly, which is why the dumb luck idea makes more sense. Especially, as I've said, with nearly 40 ISD's flanking it.

5. I obvioulsy haven't read those damn books. Kind of makes you wonder why he wasn't using it if his ships shields were getting taking down by concentrated fire.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-05 01:31am

I've always wondered if the "Intensigy forward firepower, I don't want anything getting through" bit means that TLs can act as point defense against other TLs in a pinch. Its not inconcievable - we see that TLs will merge ina manner conserving energy and momentum in the form of compound weapons. But there are a whole host of questions relating to their nature and the physics behind it that it raises.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-05 01:41am

PayBack wrote:1. Having the Dome shields = All of the bridge shields is a bit of a jump don't you think? And I didn't put words in anyone's mouths, I distinguished the bridge from the rest of the ship, I was merely distinguishing between the loss of one not meaning the loss of all or others.

2. I think Saxton has covered the globes and pretty much put to bed the idea of them being, or housing shield projectors, though it's been some time since I've read it.

3. Well ummm yes, that's what I assumed. However see my comment in reply to knife as to why I think it's crazy if his intention was to take out the cap ships in front of him. Especially if 5 of them have the power to take his ship out WITH shields.

4. Exactly, which is why the dumb luck idea makes more sense. Especially, as I've said, with nearly 40 ISD's flanking it.

5. I obvioulsy haven't read those damn books. Kind of makes you wonder why he wasn't using it if his ships shields were getting taking down by concentrated fire.

1. No it isn't. The fact of the matter is that the A-wing crashed into the ship and an officer had reported prior to his demise that the deflector shield was down.

2. The domes had shield projectors but not shield generators. They were fire control radar primarily.

4. Dumb Luck is one thing, I wouldn't be surprised that the next salvo from the Mon Cal cruiser slags the entire bridge since they were targeting it. Let's not go into the debate about why there was so little fire being traded since the SFX people obviously didn't animate the fire.

5. That i have no idea. In any case, the time scale suggests very little time to move the bridge staff prior to the collision. Perhaps it takes time to initialize the secondary bridge.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2006-07-05 01:55am

Ender wrote:I've always wondered if the "Intensigy forward firepower, I don't want anything getting through" bit means that TLs can act as point defense against other TLs in a pinch. Its not inconcievable - we see that TLs will merge ina manner conserving energy and momentum in the form of compound weapons. But there are a whole host of questions relating to their nature and the physics behind it that it raises.

If turbolaser beams are invisible and move at the speed of light, how could another gun possibly intercept the shot at such range? Maybe it would work if the ships were several light-seconds apart.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-05 02:07am

PayBack wrote:
Perhaps, but then if that were the case, what doesn't make sense is that he was then NOT using all available means to knock out the cap ships that had just been hitting him with enough power to take out his shields. If your forward bridge shields are about to fail, you don't ignore the ships most able to fry your ass until AFTER the shields are down.

Meh, could be as simple as the Executor was targeting mulitiple ships, supporting other Imperial ships etc. The shields went down or a part of the shields went down and Piett wanted to redirect his firepower to the immeadiate threat. Namely those craft we can see in the bridge scene.

I honestly believe it makes more sense for it to have been bad luck (as implied by the movie IMNSHO) than have 2 cruisers and 3 destroyers take out a Dreadnought protected by 30+ destroyers.

I agree it was luck that the A-wing smashed the bridge, and that luck saved the rebels time, much like what Piett wanted to do (in my theory) the rebels got to do with their firepower, namely not spend time frying the Executor and redirect their weapons on other Imperial ships due to a lucky break.

As for the 2 starcruisers and 3 destroyers taking out the SSD. There are more, those are just the ~5ships easlily seen in that one flash from the SSD bridge.

In the scene you can see the two port wingless, and in the background three other Mon Cal ships with another one that may be a Galofree transport or another Mon Cal ship. One of those might be the Home One (in Akbar's perspective he's on that side of the Executor) but if not, then there could be somewhere in the vincinity of ~5 stardestroyer level ships and a Starcruiser on the port side of the Executor.

The starboard side shows less, wheter because there are indeed less or we just don't see them, I don't know. But at least one Starcruiser and one escort are shown. So at bare mininum, two starcruisers and ~6 stardestroyers are actually assulting the Executor at that particular time.

It's possible that the heavy concentration of capships to the port side of the Executor (my crackpot theory) is due to the loss of the third Home One style ship to the DSII, and her escorts may have joined up with Home One herself and swamped the port side of the SSD in the attack. Then again, maybe the Mon Cal fleet indeed had enough stardestroyer level ships to provide ~6 escorts for each of the starcruisers and we just don't see the swarm on the starboard side.

Especially as the ISD captains probably wouldn't be keen on explaining to Vader how they let his ship get blown up. The Rebel fighters were badly outnumbered by Imperial fighters so it'd be crazy to think all 40 ISD's were too busy to assist the Executor.

There seemed to be a good showing of rebel ships at Endor as well. At least seven wingless style Mon Cal ships survived the battle as did supposedly two starcruisers. Through the visuals, there are at least 12 Mon Cal capital ships at Endor, at least, while three of those are starcruisers, seven surviving wingless and two winged Liberty styles.

And besides the DSII blasts, we see little in the way of Mon Cal losses while we do see a couple ISD's blow up. The rebels were doing well with the forces they brought.

You also have to keep in mind that the rebels got quite a few free punches in as the Imp fleet was ordered to hold them in place so the Emperor could pick them off with the DS.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2006-07-05 08:11am

I would like to explore another possibility - that the Executor wasn't fighting back against the mon cal cruisers as per the Emperors orders.

The Emperor probably wanted to make a show of force by picking of the rebel fleet one at the time with the super laser of the DSII.

Lets face it if the Executor engaged the rebel fleet in Ernest there wouldn't be much fleet left in a matter of minutes - also Piett said they where only there to prevent the rebels from escaping.

So there is (in my mind) a least a possibility that the Executor only fired it's point defense weaponry against the star fighters.

P.S if the EU states otherwise i stand corrected since i haven't read it.
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Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-05 09:36am

It's ridiculous. How could the fleet just sacrifice itself that way? Furthermore, if the fleet hoped to drive the Rebels back to the killing zone, it'd have to use its main weaponry. Furthermore, why then have Interdictors on the outerskirts of the system?

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2006-07-05 10:19am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:It's ridiculous. How could the fleet just sacrifice itself that way? Furthermore, if the fleet hoped to drive the Rebels back to the killing zone, it'd have to use its main weaponry. Furthermore, why then have Interdictors on the outerskirts of the system?

It would't be the first ridicules order given by The Emperor , and ask yourself this - Executor is so heavy armed that it should be able to rip right though the rebel fleet without working up much of a sweat yet it didn't.. in fact it didn't destroy as much as a singel ship in the entire engagement..why?

Feil · Post by **Feil** » 2006-07-05 10:31am

George Lucas wrote:COMMANDER: We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT: Hold here, commander.

COMMANDER: We're not going to attack?

PIETT: "I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.

The Imperial warships were ordered not to attack the Rebel fleet.

What we have here is a senile old politician deciding that he is more qualified than his Admirals to run a military operation, and the inevitable results thereof. That is all.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-05 10:36am

Aquatain wrote: It would't be the first ridicules order given by The Emperor , and ask yourself this - Executor is so heavy armed that it should be able to rip right though the rebel fleet without working up much of a sweat yet it didn't.. in fact it didn't destroy as much as a singel ship in the entire engagement..why?

I personally have no idea. It's downright stupid. The other possibility is that WEG stats are just simply screwed and given its track record, I'm hoping more for the latter.

Aquatain · Post by **Aquatain** » 2006-07-05 11:04am

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Aquatain wrote: It would't be the first ridicules order given by The Emperor , and ask yourself this - Executor is so heavy armed that it should be able to rip right though the rebel fleet without working up much of a sweat yet it didn't.. in fact it didn't destroy as much as a singel ship in the entire engagement..why?
I personally have no idea. It's downright stupid. The other possibility is that WEG stats are just simply screwed and given its track record, I'm hoping more for the latter.

If the WEG stats are screwed and THE Executor is in reallity far weaker than statet , then you just have really one big moving target with a glas jaw.. now that would be really stupid.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-05 11:14am

Feil wrote:
George Lucas wrote:COMMANDER: We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT: Hold here, commander.

COMMANDER: We're not going to attack?

PIETT: "I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.
The Imperial warships were ordered not to attack the Rebel fleet.

What we have here is a senile old politician deciding that he is more qualified than his Admirals to run a military operation, and the inevitable results thereof. That is all.

That might be, however when the rebel fleet moved in to 'point blank range' and started exchanging broadsides with Imperial ships, we see SD shooting back. On top of all that, and explaining a bit on the Executor, IIRC the final attack on the Executor was after the death of the Emperor. So you'd probably get the loss of Battle Meditation or whatever that the novel describes and waves of despair through out the Imperial command structure.