Admiral Piett and Executor stay in the fight.

[VT-16]

Here's some DVD screencaps to give people more of an idea what went on in the Executor's final moments.

First two follow the action from Ackbar's POW when he orders his task force to "concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer":

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... e5d095.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... c4ccf2.jpg

The centermost ISD fires a few shots at a Mon Cal vessel, which it seems to shrug off. There's two misses before a third and fourth gigantic bolt hits the center ISD, pulverizing it. Those shots must be almost 1 km long each.
The Executor also shrugs off a few hits.

Third collage shows various angles around the Executor as it's hit and takes a dive:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... de2394.jpg


There's at least one Home One type in the first collage, to Ackbar's left (its profile is different from the sleeker Liberty ships) and a Liberty cruiser closer to the Ex.
In the final moments, there's at least two Liberty cruisers in front of the Ex, the Home One, and other blotches in the background.
There's at least one Liberty above the Ex, and at least one to its right, as well as several Nebulon-Bs, CR90s and at least one GR75. A Home One is behind it, to its right.

So you'd probably get the loss of Battle Meditation or whatever that the novel describes and waves of despair through out the Imperial command structure.

Since Piett says "intensify forward firing" the Ex is already firing, just not at its maximum. Can't be that much despair if Piett actually wisens up.

[Wyrm]

COMMANDER: We're in attack position now, sir.

PIETT: Hold here, commander.

COMMANDER: We're not going to attack?

PIETT: "I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping.

The Imperial warships were ordered not to attack the Rebel fleet.

What we have here is a senile old politician deciding that he is more qualified than his Admirals to run a military operation, and the inevitable results thereof. That is all.

How did they expect to keep the Rebels from escaping? Asking them nicely to return to the killing zone and fasten their seatbelts? Contaiment implies exchanging fire, I would think.

[Galvatron]

Tractor beams?

[Noble Ire]

Tractor beams?

As Knife pointed out, when the Rebel fleet actually tried to move in on the Imperial blockade, the ISDs did start firing on them. There's a big difference between "We only need to keep them from escaping" and "OMG dont shoot teh rebels!"

[Feil]

How did they expect to keep the Rebels from escaping? Asking them nicely to return to the killing zone and fasten their seatbelts? Contaiment implies exchanging fire, I would think.

No shit. But they lost the battle, and failed to destroy (m)any of the enemy warships, because they didn't fire except to contain the Rebels, and the force that could have saved them after they threw away the fleet engagement -- the Death Star -- conveniently blew up.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

One thing I noticed was the battle seemed to be over the Death Star. It appears that the Imperials may have closed in on the Rebels to engage when they saw that the Rebels themsevles were coming in, and as the Rebels moved towards the Death Star to support their fighters, the Imperial armada followed.

[Wyrm]

How did they expect to keep the Rebels from escaping? Asking them nicely to return to the killing zone and fasten their seatbelts? Contaiment implies exchanging fire, I would think.

No shit. But they lost the battle, and failed to destroy (m)any of the enemy warships, because they didn't fire except to contain the Rebels, and the force that could have saved them after they threw away the fleet engagement -- the Death Star -- conveniently blew up.

That's bullshit. Firing with intent to contain is basically convincing the other side that, "If you try to escape, we'll fuck you up worse than if you stay." How would the Imperials present the best case to the Rebel fleet for staying? Throwing as many TL Bolts o' Doom at the retreating Rebel fleet as they possibly could.

But as the exchange between Lando and Ackbar revealed, the Rebels didn't buy that bullshit: the DSII's superlaser is one-shot/one-kill.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

[snip]

That's bullshit. Firing with intent to contain is basically convincing the other side that, "If you try to escape, we'll fuck you up worse than if you stay." How would the Imperials present the best case to the Rebel fleet for staying? Throwing as many TL Bolts o' Doom at the retreating Rebel fleet as they possibly could.

But as the exchange between Lando and Ackbar revealed, the Rebels didn't buy that bullshit: the DSII's superlaser is one-shot/one-kill.

The problem with this is that the rebel fleet wasn't fleeing. According to the dialogue, retreat was discarded as an option and they were simply moving close to the Imperial fleet in order to render the biggest threat (the superlaser) not an issue as they waited for the shield to fall.

While the Imperial forces wouldn't know this unless they were listening in, if, as you said, they were firing the heavy shots at retreating ships then the ones staying in the mêlée wouldn't be hit with those weapons.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Imperial vessels were observed firing upon the Rebel fleet. It was clear that it was slowly degenerating into a brawl though the Rebel fleet was clearly coordinated and directing their fire at Enemy capital ships and following Ackbar's order to fire upon the Executor. I'm not sure if this is true, but Ackbar's strategy was to shove aside the escorting warships around the Executor and to engage the Executor with heavy bombardment.

No ship captain will let his ship go down without a fight! It will be a stain on their honour.

The other problem with most analysis is that we assume to the Mon Cals to be weaker than the ISDs substantially, especially with erroneous WEG stats. It is clear that the REbel fleet won't be able to survive long if we followed those.

[Connor MacLeod]

There's also firing to cripple or disable. They don't have to destroy the ships to not render them threats.

[Wyrm]

The problem with this is that the rebel fleet wasn't fleeing. According to the dialogue, retreat was discarded as an option and they were simply moving close to the Imperial fleet in order to render the biggest threat (the superlaser) not an issue as they waited for the shield to fall.

While the Imperial forces wouldn't know this unless they were listening in, if, as you said, they were firing the heavy shots at retreating ships then the ones staying in the mêlée wouldn't be hit with those weapons.

Trying to break an enemy line so that you can get away is a legitimate escape tactic. The Rebels' actions could be interpreted as an attempt to escape.

I just don't see how the Imperials would be splitting hairs about this: remaining in the mêlée would be interpreted as part a coordinated tactic to secure an escape route by breaking their line. That action requires a response. That escape wasn't the Rebels' plan would only be a subtle difference in tactics that wouldn't become obvious until the Imperial line was actually broken and the Rebels weren't running, at which point it would be too late to really do anything about it.

I also can't help but think that the Imperial Admiral (whose name escapes me at the moment) would have seen the DSII firing, and think, "Oh! So that's what the Emperor had in mind!" and quickly realize that letting Rebel ships remain in the mêlée would not be acceptible, even if they knew the Rebels weren't planning to escape.

There's also firing to cripple or disable. They don't have to destroy the ships to not render them threats.

Possible. However, destroying the Rebel ships outright would be the most expedient way to render them non-threats. At the beginning, the Imperials would try to disble rather than destroy (maybe, depending on the nature of the Emperor's orders), but as the battle wore on, they would realize that disabling was too costly to their own forces and begin shooting to kill.

[Knife]

The problem with this is that the rebel fleet wasn't fleeing. According to the dialogue, retreat was discarded as an option and they were simply moving close to the Imperial fleet in order to render the biggest threat (the superlaser) not an issue as they waited for the shield to fall.

While the Imperial forces wouldn't know this unless they were listening in, if, as you said, they were firing the heavy shots at retreating ships then the ones staying in the mêlée wouldn't be hit with those weapons.

IIRC, the Imperial fleets tactic at Endor, via the novel, was a pincher movment from around each side of the planet. For the rebel fleet to make a break for it, they'd have to break through the line. Now there are a few strategies for it, pick a weak point and exploit it, pick multiple points and split up, but you can also pick the biggest threat in the line, pour all your resources into it, and break out there.

Whether or not it was the actual strategy, or Piett just interperted the attack that way, the rebels breaking the line and escaping would be against the orders the Emperor gave him.

[The Silence and I]

To me, it looked like the A-Wings used torpedoes when destroying the domes. The shots were small and rounded, and fired in very rapid succession--which is unusual of Rebel fighter laser cannons. Usually Rebel fighter cannons fire longer bolts more slowly.

What this suggests to me is the ray shields were up (I'd have been really, really nervous if the ray shields were down--all Piett said was increase point defense (in essense)) but the particle shields had been knocked out at some point. This allows the A-Wings to use torpedoes, Piett to not be a moron, and a later A-Wing to smash through the bridge.

[PayBack]

To me, it looked like the A-Wings used torpedoes when destroying the domes. The shots were small and rounded, and fired in very rapid succession--which is unusual of Rebel fighter laser cannons. Usually Rebel fighter cannons fire longer bolts more slowly.

What this suggests to me is the ray shields were up (I'd have been really, really nervous if the ray shields were down--all Piett said was increase point defense (in essense)) but the particle shields had been knocked out at some point. This allows the A-Wings to use torpedoes, Piett to not be a moron, and a later A-Wing to smash through the bridge.

Exactly what I was saying... and if the ray shielding was down with his ship being the obvious target of the attack, he'd be making for his shuttle. Especially if the Executor was able to be taken down regardless of the freak accident.. which is an idea I don't like considering its size and escorts.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

You do know that to bring down the particle shielding of a ship which produces enough power to power a few worlds won't be brought down by a few concussion missles? So who on earth is going to torp the ship to death? Something must bring the particle shields down, and if not a breach in the ray shields, what then?

Even so, how do we know those lasers can't fire in rapid succession when we are seeing most of the time the ships' behind? Moreover, Concussion missles would have immediately left impact marks which we don't see.

[Vicious]

Exactly what I was saying... and if the ray shielding was down with his ship being the obvious target of the attack, he'd be making for his shuttle. Especially if the Executor was able to be taken down regardless of the freak accident.. which is an idea I don't like considering its size and escorts.

What's wrong with a pair of Star Cruisers and several Star Destroyer-level vessels being able to pummel the shit out of a Star Dreadnought? Especially since the Rebels were basically in a suicide mission. Either they fail and the DS2 makes it and they eventually get owned, in which case they might as well go out kicking and the Executor is a damn big target, or the fighters manage to take out the DS2, in which case having already weakened the enemy's command vessel will make it that much easier to turn the tide of battle.

In regards to it's escorts, we see one of them get vaped, and it seems clear that the Rebels went all-or-nothing and ignored most of the escorts in exchange for swarming the Executor after Ackbar's order.

[Connor MacLeod]

Possible. However, destroying the Rebel ships outright would be the most expedient way to render them non-threats.

Yes, but that would be contrary to Piett's orders from the Emperor, wouldn't it? Given how Piett rose to his current position, I doubt he would be willing to risk his wrath by disobeying orders even at risk to his fleet. (Its not as if Palpy viewed them as indispensible or anything.)

At the beginning, the Imperials would try to disble rather than destroy (maybe, depending on the nature of the Emperor's orders), but as the battle wore on, they would realize that disabling was too costly to their own forces and begin shooting to kill.

Based on what, exactly? As far as I recall Palpatine did not rescind his orders to Piett at any time during the battle, so why would he suddenly go "fuck it, I'm going to fight back?" If he defied the Emperor it's quite likely that he would be killed if not worse.

Crippling them is not all that fucking difficult. Shoot away the weapons, shoot out the engines... There. In fact, the fact they sent fighters in first makes tremendous sense that way. (Fighters would be better suited to crippling visible external elements like weaponry than long range bombardment would.)

[Connor MacLeod]

You do know that to bring down the particle shielding of a ship which produces enough power to power a few worlds won't be brought down by a few concussion missles? So who on earth is going to torp the ship to death? Something must bring the particle shields down, and if not a breach in the ray shields, what then?

The same way Torpedo spheres get through shields or Zam Wessell's little remote breached the shields around Amidala's window, I imagine. Shield penetration technologies are not exactly unknown in the Star Wars universe.

Even so, how do we know those lasers can't fire in rapid succession when we are seeing most of the time the ships' behind? Moreover, Concussion missles would have immediately left impact marks which we don't see.

The best evidence for them not being lasers IIRC the scene is the delay between the point where they seem to "hit" (vanish) and the explosion, which is noticable. Its very much like the attack on the reactor core by Wedge and Lando later on.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The same way Torpedo spheres get through shields or Zam Wessell's little remote breached the shields around Amidala's window, I imagine. Shield penetration technologies are not exactly unknown in the Star Wars universe.

Torpedo spheres carry weapons in many order of magnitude larger and in numbers than starfighters. I don't even want to imagine how many starfighters are needed to just put a hole through the shields. I reckon hundreds.

The best evidence for them not being lasers IIRC the scene is the delay between the point where they seem to "hit" (vanish) and the explosion, which is noticable. Its very much like the attack on the reactor core by Wedge and Lando later on.

I'm willing to concede this possiblity, but it still demands that something tear down the particle and ray shielding of the Executor, even if it were a local breach.

On the use of starfighters for the turkey shootout, I think it was a stupid idea. Starfighters on their own can't damage capital ships, and would still require capital ships to breach the shields.

Moreover, Palpatine's instructions did not explicitly say the fleet bare its throat for a slaughter. Piett merely said, "We only merely need to hold them here." We are not told how they were supposed to hold them here. Further more, if the shootout between the Venator and the Invisible Hand is to be of any guide, a duel between capital ships even for disabling is every bit brutal.

[VT-16]

"fuck it, I'm going to fight back?"

I've never understood this idea that the Imperial fleet did nothing at all during the battle. If that's what you're saying, that is.

As I recall, they did fire on the starfighters swarming them, and when the Falcon moves to point-blank range, you continously see green bolts coming from the Star Destroyers in front of it. And this is before they were even at the point-blank range themselves. Face it, they were ordered to stop them if they got too close.

[Knife]

"fuck it, I'm going to fight back?"

I've never understood this idea that the Imperial fleet did nothing at all during the battle. If that's what you're saying, that is.

As I recall, they did fire on the starfighters swarming them, and when the Falcon moves to point-blank range, you continously see green bolts coming from the Star Destroyers in front of it. And this is before they were even at the point-blank range themselves. Face it, they were ordered to stop them if they got too close.

It's possible that the Imperials were engaging the rebel ships as a means to hold them there, instead of concentrating fleet firepower on individual targets. One on one slugging matches to hold the rebels in system.

[The Silence and I]

To be quite honest, I don't recall many (actually, none--but that is just what I recall) heavy turbolaser hits to the Executor. Plenty of laser fire, and medium cannon fire from the super nebulon B, but the only bigs hits I recall seem to be missile-like.

If you watch the space around the Executor from Acbar's POV there are occassional huge white explosions--but no bolt leading up to it. It was my impression the Executor was primarily hit with explosive devices, not turbolasers. Those could take out the particle shields without damaging the ray shields as much, in addition to any penetration aids that may have been employed.

Also: supposedly missiles are not frequently used because point defense can track and destroy them. Well, at point blank range there isn't very much time to track them. I imagine Endor saw more missile use than many battles in recent memory.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Unless the Rebels brought those crystals with them which they used previously to bring down the shields of the Executor back at the Siege of Yavin, or those transports are filled to the brim with heavy explosives that will be more than enough to even take out a couple of Star Destroyers, I can't imagine what would bring down shield failure.

We only have ITW's word that the Executor came under heavy bombardment, and also Ackbar's order to concentrate all fire on the Super Star Destroyer.

[Wyrm]

Possible. However, destroying the Rebel ships outright would be the most expedient way to render them non-threats.

Yes, but that would be contrary to Piett's orders from the Emperor, wouldn't it? Given how Piett rose to his current position, I doubt he would be willing to risk his wrath by disobeying orders even at risk to his fleet. (Its not as if Palpy viewed them as indispensible or anything.)

You're assuming facts not in evidence (at least insofar as the movies are concerned). We know Piett was not authorized to initiate an attack on the Rebel fleet, as that would go counter to demonstrating the "fully armed and operational battle station," but we don't know what Piett was authorized to do should the Rebels try to escape. I was assuming a plain vanilla blockade, where any attempt to break through the blockade would be discouraged in any way possible, including destroying the enemy forces.

At the beginning, the Imperials would try to disble rather than destroy (maybe, depending on the nature of the Emperor's orders), but as the battle wore on, they would realize that disabling was too costly to their own forces and begin shooting to kill.

Based on what, exactly? As far as I recall Palpatine did not rescind his orders to Piett at any time during the battle, so why would he suddenly go "fuck it, I'm going to fight back?" If he defied the Emperor it's quite likely that he would be killed if not worse.

Again, depending on the orders Piett was given, he may have been authorized to escalate containment procedures on Rebel forces to shoot-to-kill. We don't know what Piett was authorized to do if the Rebels tried to escape, so I assume that we have a plain vanilla containment, which includes authorization to escalate to lethal force.

Crippling them is not all that fucking difficult. Shoot away the weapons, shoot out the engines... There.

Okay, disabling only is not "all that fucking difficult," but if you're pressed for time or getting pounded, destroying removes the danger quicker.

In fact, the fact they sent fighters in first makes tremendous sense that way. (Fighters would be better suited to crippling visible external elements like weaponry than long range bombardment would.)

I think your timing is a bit off. The Imperials sent in fighters before the Rebels were even attempting to escape. Lando noted that only the fighters were attacking, and wondering what the Star Destroyers were waiting for. This is before the DSII blasted away its first Rebel ship, and before anyone on the Rebel side sent any orders to retreat. How is this part of the containment if the fighters engaged before the Rebels were attempting to retreat?

[PayBack]

What's wrong with a pair of Star Cruisers and several Star Destroyer-level vessels being able to pummel the shit out of a Star Dreadnought? Especially since the Rebels were basically in a suicide mission. Either they fail and the DS2 makes it and they eventually get owned, in which case they might as well go out kicking and the Executor is a damn big target, or the fighters manage to take out the DS2, in which case having already weakened the enemy's command vessel will make it that much easier to turn the tide of battle.

In regards to it's escorts, we see one of them get vaped, and it seems clear that the Rebels went all-or-nothing and ignored most of the escorts in exchange for swarming the Executor after Ackbar's order.

What's wrong with 2 cruisers and 5 or 6 Destroyers taking down the shields of a Dreadnought before said Dreadnough and 30 plus destroyers take out the 7 attacking ships?? Are you serious? What's wrong with it is that the Dreadnought which I like so much goes from being a breast to being a pussy.

Also in regard to the discussion about Pietts orders. IIRC at no time did he say he was told not to destroy the enemy cap ships, he was told to keep them from escaping, and blowing them up tends to do that. Sure the Emperor had something special planned, but once it looked like they were going to break through, Piett would have started kicking ass and taking names, as he was NOT ordered not to destroy the rebel ships, he WAS ordered to not let them escape.