Space Empires IV Game... of Doom! (Adamant Mod)

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brianeyci
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Post by brianeyci »

But you see the thing about normal ship progression is there's only one ship class. You might research more but bigger is always better in most cases unless you want screening ships.

I didn't know you were building off of Adamant. I thought you were making everything from scratch.

You're right, the best way to make smaller ships more attractive is give them special mounts.

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss balancing concerns making Nomads more powerful. 99% maintainence reduction basically means they can field so many more ships than you late game that if they aren't handicapped in some way early game they're too powerful IMO. If someone with a stock 100% on maintainence comes up against someone with 99% maintainence reduction late game... well they can field 99 ships for every 1 of theirs lol.

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Post by Covenant »

The ol' "Weak early, strong later" thing is retarded though, and I think it's got no place in competitive play. It's unfair at the beginning and unfair at the end, for different reasons. Sounds like the worst of both worlds to me. Nomads can't grow their research until they have medium sized transports, and they can't get those very quickly on just a few homeworlds. The weakness of their ships is also much more pronounced at lot levels where 50kt's is not a small amount of space at all. Especially for an organic, whose ship-sizes are so tiny, and who starts off a ship that's like 140kt's in size.

The only thing I'm doing to the ships is giving certain ship hulls certain bonuses. It's still the same tree. You research "Ship Construction" 3, and get destroyers. Research 5 and get frigates. But each of the ship sizes, instead of being just another goddamn box of weapons, has some bonuses too. :D
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Post by brianeyci »

The "weak early strong later" is probably because it's very difficult to balance it any other way. Plus it makes the Nomads very distinctive, and the Pirates are very distinctive too so they're something special. I don't really know how to make them distinctive but at the same time balanced. Nomads are pretty balanced anyway in Adamant because homeworlds are so tough, a Nomad could probably hold out for awhile until he gets big hulls.

Anyway off to work ttyl :P.

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Post by Covenant »

Eh, you really need to start making more research stations right away. If nomads don't start claiming space they'll end up getting boxed in. Since their infrastructure is so amazingly fragile as compared to a normal race, a badguy with a few ships can sweep in and completely obliterate their resource bases, blow up their orbital research stations, and basically end things right there.

The weakness of nomad groups persists until the end of the game, while their strength only appears once you have a massive cloud of ships. But since everything needs to be in space, a lot of what you're paying for is also going to be bases. Lots and lots of bases. I don't see how it's unfair. Really, all I've done is give them a bit of early game boost to take some of the horrible edge off of it. I'm not interested in playing a mod where having to endure 30 rounds of being terrible is the price you pay for wanting to be something interesting.
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Post by brianeyci »

Covenant wrote:Eh, you really need to start making more research stations right away. If nomads don't start claiming space they'll end up getting boxed in. Since their infrastructure is so amazingly fragile as compared to a normal race, a badguy with a few ships can sweep in and completely obliterate their resource bases, blow up their orbital research stations, and basically end things right there.

The weakness of nomad groups persists until the end of the game, while their strength only appears once you have a massive cloud of ships. But since everything needs to be in space, a lot of what you're paying for is also going to be bases. Lots and lots of bases. I don't see how it's unfair. Really, all I've done is give them a bit of early game boost to take some of the horrible edge off of it. I'm not interested in playing a mod where having to endure 30 rounds of being terrible is the price you pay for wanting to be something interesting.
But you see, you are giving Nomads an advantage with their resource bases that normal races do not. Other people's research outposts are vulnerable so why shouldn't theirs be?

Case in point, it's turn 46 in Adamant and nobody has a fleet powerful enough to glass a homeworld. The edge is not so horrible. It's easy to plug a wormhole with mines and satellites and minesweeping's a major pain in the ass in Adamant.

The 99% ultra recycler node is advantage enough IMO. But do what you want your mod heh heh :P... I just don't want to be finding midway through the game three months later that there's something unbalanced though. Adamant's on version 15 and there must have been countless hundreds of games played and thousands of suggestions on their forums so the Nomads are probably the way they are for a reason.

I don't think we've even scratched the surface of normal Adamant and I'd be willing to give it another try.

If you want Covenant. We can play your modification with the real time client and get 100 turns through in one night.

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Post by Covenant »

brianeyci wrote:But you see, you are giving Nomads an advantage with their resource bases that normal races do not. Other people's research outposts are vulnerable so why shouldn't theirs be?
Because most people can put other research bases on a planet's surface. Nomads, since they can't colonize, cannot. Even if a planet-based research lab is vulnerable, it's still got the protections of a planet, does not cost resources, does not require a shipyard to make it, does not require a mobile shipyard to set one up over a new world, and produces like 3 times as much.

My basic research lab things need to be made from a specialized orbital research lab node, the base is too small for a recycler (making each one cost me about 400 a turn ontop of it's large construction cost) and only pumps out about 125 research points. That's asstastic. I need to make twice as many, take four times the time, and spend like ten times as much for the same result? And this is ontop of all the other production needs I have, such as harvesters.
The 99% ultra recycler node is advantage enough IMO. But do what you want your mod heh heh :P... I just don't want to be finding midway through the game three months later that there's something unbalanced though. Adamant's on version 15 and there must have been countless hundreds of games played and thousands of suggestions on their forums so the Nomads are probably the way they are for a reason.
That's an appeal to authority. ;p Just like how there are many other broken, unintentional, or downright unfinished elements to the Adamant mod, I think the plight of Nomads is the same. If you check the Adamant boards there is a Nomads thread where the devs are basically turning a blind eye to Nomad races and saying "Yeah, they suck ass. They can't expand, they can't research, but what they can do is sell ships with low maintaince to people in order to get tech."

So their view of a Nomad is a race that has very little of it's own power, but works in multiplayer. Also, other players agree--their research bases are garbage, their rate of expansion is absolutely atrocious, and they are far, far, far too weak. I'm changing what I'm changing because of the issues raised with the mod. Though, frankly, I have no idea what I'll end up doing with it overall. They're almost done with machine and energy races, but will be scrapping all of the weaponsets when they finish. I see so many holes in Adamant... but no other mod gives me as much control over the types of races I can create. Maybe I should just save some of my work (like the worldships and shipclasses) and mod a real stripped-down version of the game like Neph's.
If you want Covenant. We can play your modification with the real time client and get 100 turns through in one night.
I'd like that, but I'm not real sure right now Adamant is the best basis for it. I can write weapons and techs and shipsizes and such superfast. I'm good at all that. Adamant's probably too cluttered for my tastes.

What I really super-duper want is a mod where most of your race's tech is opted into at the beginning of the game and the rest is found. Like, instead of everyone getting all of the shipclasses, you gotta pay for them with racial points. There's a standard 'fleet' option for like 1500. Then there's some advanced vessels for like 250 or 500 each. Then there's Doomstar Hulls for another 1000.

It'd work similar to the Psychic Powers, Crystal Races, etc. You buy the thing, you get some tech tree additions. So you end up with very distinct playstyles due to the fact that you physically cannot afford to buy all the best options. That'd probably be easy to do. I did that, essentially, last night with my ships. Hrm... that's kinda a fun idea, really. I'll do some experimenting.

We could also build into it the cheapass gatebuilder vessels--make the mod designed to be played without naturally occuring wormholes. We'd want to make the wormhole stoppers fairly effective though.
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Post by brianeyci »

Covenant wrote:
brianeyci wrote:But you see, you are giving Nomads an advantage with their resource bases that normal races do not. Other people's research outposts are vulnerable so why shouldn't theirs be?
Because most people can put other research bases on a planet's surface. Nomads, since they can't colonize, cannot. Even if a planet-based research lab is vulnerable, it's still got the protections of a planet, does not cost resources, does not require a shipyard to make it, does not require a mobile shipyard to set one up over a new world, and produces like 3 times as much.

My basic research lab things need to be made from a specialized orbital research lab node, the base is too small for a recycler (making each one cost me about 400 a turn ontop of it's large construction cost) and only pumps out about 125 research points. That's asstastic. I need to make twice as many, take four times the time, and spend like ten times as much for the same result? And this is ontop of all the other production needs I have, such as harvesters.
The research handicap is probably deliberate because if the Nomads had a research bell curve the same as normal races they would be too powerful too quickly.

The Kiith have fifty research bases in orbit so it's not just nomads that use research outposts. I use my planets for mining operations. Facility space is at a premium in Adamant for some reason.
That's an appeal to authority. ;p Just like how there are many other broken, unintentional, or downright unfinished elements to the Adamant mod, I think the plight of Nomads is the same. If you check the Adamant boards there is a Nomads thread where the devs are basically turning a blind eye to Nomad races and saying "Yeah, they suck ass. They can't expand, they can't research, but what they can do is sell ships with low maintaince to people in order to get tech."

So their view of a Nomad is a race that has very little of it's own power, but works in multiplayer. Also, other players agree--their research bases are garbage, their rate of expansion is absolutely atrocious, and they are far, far, far too weak. I'm changing what I'm changing because of the issues raised with the mod. Though, frankly, I have no idea what I'll end up doing with it overall. They're almost done with machine and energy races, but will be scrapping all of the weaponsets when they finish. I see so many holes in Adamant... but no other mod gives me as much control over the types of races I can create. Maybe I should just save some of my work (like the worldships and shipclasses) and mod a real stripped-down version of the game like Neph's.
The main idea is Nomads can't colonize. In return they get their 99% recycler node. No colonizing means no facilities and research centers along with it. Research outposts aren't supposed to replace facilities, they're supposed to be a second option IMO. The recycler node makes them very powerful since maintanence is a bitch. Homeworlds mine a ton of resources on their own and Adamant's designed to be slow so I think Nomads are as balanced as they can be.

Honestly if Nomads were even a bit competitive, you'd be forced to "gang up" on a Nomad player before he could field a massive fleet and take out his research centers just because you knew that they could kick your ass late game. The way they are now, people think they suck (and they do heh heh) so you can sneak your way to the top. At least that's how I'd play them. I don't mind selling huge fleets off.
I'd like that, but I'm not real sure right now Adamant is the best basis for it. I can write weapons and techs and shipsizes and such superfast. I'm good at all that. Adamant's probably too cluttered for my tastes.

What I really super-duper want is a mod where most of your race's tech is opted into at the beginning of the game and the rest is found. Like, instead of everyone getting all of the shipclasses, you gotta pay for them with racial points. There's a standard 'fleet' option for like 1500. Then there's some advanced vessels for like 250 or 500 each. Then there's Doomstar Hulls for another 1000.

It'd work similar to the Psychic Powers, Crystal Races, etc. You buy the thing, you get some tech tree additions. So you end up with very distinct playstyles due to the fact that you physically cannot afford to buy all the best options. That'd probably be easy to do. I did that, essentially, last night with my ships. Hrm... that's kinda a fun idea, really. I'll do some experimenting.
Nephtys' mod is already like that (the finding technology option that is). We should really play hers since she's done first. And, she's right by turn 30 the game's over heh heh so it'll be sweet and short.

I really like Tuxedo's idea of ship classes, I think it's sexy. I might try making it right now or tomorrow morning.

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Post by Covenant »

Beh! Your opinions make me sneer, foul Brianeyci. I'm not a fan of saying "these guys are gimped and non-competitive." I don't like the idea of a one-sided gimmick race. They should all be competitive on relatively equal footing or else they shouldn't be in. No ubar races. No suck races. It's just lame. I like my Zerg as nomads--it adds flavor and fun! But whatever.

My mod isn't even going to bother putting Nomads and Pirates in. Anyway, I'm going to design a good racebuilder set of things and muddle with some tech trees. That way I can just drop in my files rather than rewrite an entire game. Should be real quick and easy. I need to get a copy of Neph's mod, but she's so stinkingly absent. ;p
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Post by brianeyci »

Covenant wrote:Beh! Your opinions make me sneer, foul Brianeyci. I'm not a fan of saying "these guys are gimped and non-competitive." I don't like the idea of a one-sided gimmick race. They should all be competitive on relatively equal footing or else they shouldn't be in. No ubar races. No suck races. It's just lame. I like my Zerg as nomads--it adds flavor and fun! But whatever.

My mod isn't even going to bother putting Nomads and Pirates in. Anyway, I'm going to design a good racebuilder set of things and muddle with some tech trees. That way I can just drop in my files rather than rewrite an entire game. Should be real quick and easy. I need to get a copy of Neph's mod, but she's so stinkingly absent. ;p
Well then why not make Zerg just a normal race. Last time I checked Zerg could colonize worlds :P. Just give them 150% maintainence and they're almost like a nomad race without the 50 kT gimped component. Nomads are a gimmick, at least the way I see them sorry lol.

Neph's mod's available on the PBW website for download.

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Post by Covenant »

Where?

And I might as well. Requires a lot of retooling though--I had them totally maxed out for mobile production. Nomads can free up a lot of points by reducing certain things, but their hard-coded disadvantages wtfpwn all that.

Anyway... anyone have some interesting ideas for my mod? :D

Premise is that you're a young race that found some old tech. Instead of paradigms, that is. I'm wondering what to make as the big 'world changing technology' options.

--edit-- Sorta like in Homeworld, or Stargate, how they start off with basic tech, find some ultratech, and slowly slowly learn how to exploit it. Find a hyperspace core, a map, and zammo, you're off to the stars. That sort of thing. Infact, I might make 'Hyperspace Core' or 'Stargate' one of the relic 'Paradigms' things.

--another edit-- It's less like an Adamant paradigm, where it changes everything, than like Temporal Tech or Crystallurgy, where it gives you a certain flavor and a bunch of distinctive technologies but there is still an entire 'mundane' technology tree of basic techs to fill in the gaps.
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Post by Covenant »

Alright, so far, here's what I've got. Copied over some easy-to-imagine things from adamant's 5 races in terms of how they might change things. Technically I should be able to add more, but I'm thinking of adding minor artifacts (ancient gizmos of sorts) for special techs and have these just effect hull sizes and the majority of their guns and such. Flavor, essentially. Give them their style. I might want to make this list much bigger. Have more like 10. Or 15. So far I really like these two:

Universal Assemblers, aka, Slylandro: The old name for von neumann machines. This is a roboty-type race, essentially. Designed around the idea of ships building other ships. Have a few odd ideas, like making the berzerker probes run around like drones and just attack everything they see. Could just make them a smaller size thing.

Gatebuilder City, aka, Stargate Command: You've found atlantis. Huzzah! You get a few fun things and best of all, stargates! Brian would want this one. You start with wormhole openers, and I think everyone will start with wormhole closers. Dalton had a good idea of making it a facility. That's pretty cool--any idea of I can make a wormhole opener work from a planety structure?

Some other ones I like, but am not sure on:

True AI: aka, Skynet or HAL 9000. You've found a sentient AI, and now you need to live with the consequences. AI's have l33t h4x so they can run tight counter intel, take over your ship's systems (or just fuxor them up), and all your human citizens get to help out by manning the Slave Labor harvester facilities.

Genesis Lab: You've discovered a place where they can design tailor-made organisms of amazing power, and you do so after giving yourself superman-like biological powers. Good for Zerg. Squishy ships.

Star Factory: You found a thing that can create stars, planets, etc--at least if you were better at using it. Early access to some weak stellar manipulation and big planetoidy type ships. Energy race, basically.

Brain Slug: aka, Dnyarri or Scientology. Another "BAD ENDING" discovery. Similar to 'The Final Frontier' where they found 'God.' Anyway, God wants you all to make spaceships and blow away those Ancients. What, they're all DEAD? Well then, let's get to work! This would be the 'normal' race, essentially. No big mods. Hilariously good urban pacification buildings for no reason and maybe some other doohickey like a brainbug amplifier that has a chance of taking over a ship, but also slaps it with random movement and refire delay. IE, an annoyance gun like Neph has in STMod.

Time Travel: Not quite Doctor Who, but I might let them make a TARDIS. They'd have a variety of interesting gizmos--like things that can really increase refire delay or teleport people around or maybe teleport themselves places on the main map--a drive that needs to be 'activated' and makes them go like 50 squares so long as they have the supply or something.

S-Fold Drive: Maybe dump the time travel thing and just make the above one a spacefold drive. Lots of teleporty stuff and Macross-inspired tech. Time travel is fun though. I wonder how you could make it feel like it should?

Any other ideas? A good idea gives inspiration for a few flavor techs, something for combat and something for infrastructure, and would influence their starship design greatly. Anything smaller (like finding a lightsaber) would be a minor artifact. If you wanted Lightsaber artifacts available they might be, like, 250 racial points and give you some potent infantry weapons and superior boarding troops or something. Not every doohicky changes the world.
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Post by brianeyci »

Ideas are a dime a dozen and you have a lot of dimes :).

I'd like to see the ideas in action before I comment obviously. If you put together a modification I can try it out.

How do you make a wormhole opener a facility? That's crazy heh heh.

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Post by Covenant »

That's why I'm asking for ideas, numbnuts. So I can make the mod. :D

Plus, a lot of dimes still adds up to something. Adamant is a pile of dimes, as is STMod, and SEIV in general. I'm not asking for an appraisal, I'm asking for ideas as to what might be some fun supertechs like the ones I've listed? You're obviously not much of a reader or you would have gotten to that part! Heh.

And I dunno about the wormhole opener facility, but I can redo what facilities do easily--I wonder if it's possible only from a "does it need to have a movement point" hard-coded limitation. But I can certainly tell a facility that it can make wormholes. And a planet could then fire that off. It'd be kinda cool if it works. I'd need to call the structure the SGC.
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Post by brianeyci »

It's 4 in the morning where I am man.

Okay I'll try.

BFG

A facility that gives the planet 9999999 shields and one-shot kills any ship every single turn (30 ships a combat round). So basically they're forced to drop troops to capture it.

Spice

Technology to build a facility that harvests organics at ten times the normal rate.

Area 51

Special technology that lets you build cloak level 99 unarmed vessels for perfect scouting.

Last Man (or Woman) On Earth

A facility that gives +100% happiness.

Death to the Infidels

A component that does quadruple the normal warhead damage when a ship rams another ship.

Structural Integrity Gizmo

A zero KT component that is armor and costs a lot for making your ships highly durable.

Where's Waldo

A facility that cloaks a whole planet to level ten. Expensive to build.

Charging Siege Cannon Now

A 99 range 99999999 damage weapon that takes 30 reload and always hits but is really damn expensive and only fits on the largest hull size.

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Post by Covenant »

I don't know if that was just a snarky response or an attempt at humor, but your attitude is pretty lousy. Maybe those were actual ideas, I dunno, but you seem super eager to rip on other people without looking their stuff over first, and I really hate that kind of crap. Just like before when you were going on and on about how I would need to do all this and all that, and then I was like "I'm modding Adamant" and you're like "Oh."

Seriously, if you don't want to help, fine. But you just suck the fun out of what should be a lighthearted little project and quash any interest anyone else would show by dumping water on it. Next time I have an idea for something fun, remind me not to mention it to you.
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Post by Nephtys »

Covenant wrote:I don't know if that was just a snarky response or an attempt at humor, but your attitude is pretty lousy. Maybe those were actual ideas, I dunno, but you seem super eager to rip on other people without looking their stuff over first, and I really hate that kind of crap. Just like before when you were going on and on about how I would need to do all this and all that, and then I was like "I'm modding Adamant" and you're like "Oh."

Seriously, if you don't want to help, fine. But you just suck the fun out of what should be a lighthearted little project and quash any interest anyone else would show by dumping water on it. Next time I have an idea for something fun, remind me not to mention it to you.
Cheer up. Seriously here, I think planetary wormhole openers would be a total blast. Think of the strategy that'd force? Perhaps even if we made that the ONLY way to cross systems.
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Post by Covenant »

Well, it still may need the 1-move to do stuff. I could, however, envision it being utterly immobile otherwise. It's certainly not hard to create a ship that's incapable of really going anywhere. I could also make it so it requires, like, 5 million supply to use the opener.

And where will you get 5 million supply? Only on a planet.
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Post by brianeyci »

Covenant wrote:I don't know if that was just a snarky response or an attempt at humor, but your attitude is pretty lousy. Maybe those were actual ideas, I dunno, but you seem super eager to rip on other people without looking their stuff over first, and I really hate that kind of crap. Just like before when you were going on and on about how I would need to do all this and all that, and then I was like "I'm modding Adamant" and you're like "Oh."

Seriously, if you don't want to help, fine. But you just suck the fun out of what should be a lighthearted little project and quash any interest anyone else would show by dumping water on it. Next time I have an idea for something fun, remind me not to mention it to you.
Uh eek, I was honestly trying to help and be funny. Guess I need to work on my sense of humor.

Those are real components by the way. If you look at them carefully they seem powerful but they're not really that broken, just unusual. If the names aren't serious enough and you're making a serious mod ok I'm sorry it sounded like I was making fun, but it's easy to change 'em.

I am not "eager to rip" into other people. I have a busy life and I could be doing a dozen other things and I really want to help. Like I said, I have a vested interest in helping because if we start something and we find problems 3 or 4 months later and we are thinking of abandoning it, like some are for Adamant, I'd rather avoid that.

As for the "on and on and on" I usually preface my suggestions with "I think" and "Probably" and "I suggest" and "Maybe". I'm trying to be a writer, and when I criticize other people's short stories I have to do this to avoid hurting other people's feelings. If you look very carefully at my words you'll see that my criticism style is deliberately written not to offend people--it's become second nature for me to preface anything that's my opinion with "I think" that's not a fact because I've learned it's easy for people to take criticism of their writing personally. So, I did that for your stuff, and if that's not enough well I am sorry.

If you're looking for a point-by-point response about your components or ideas and specific criticism, well I didn't do that earlier and didn't know you wanted it to be so specific. If you're wondering why I suggested a whole new line of engines for different ships, it's because I heard ideas like "different speed" and thought you hated the QNP system since you already mentioned you hated Adamant's small ships. So if there's no QNP, there's got to be different engines for different hulls or people would just slap the good engines on larger hulls and that'd be that. And I suggested different lines of weapons because you said things like smaller ships would be able to swarm and kill bigger ships, so I thought they'd have special weapons (on hindsight I was wrong, special mounts are a better idea). So it's all there, just not in a lot of detail. And they were real suggestions.

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Post by brianeyci »

Anyway back to game administration. It's come to my attention that there is confusion on the rules. Rules suck, yadayada and I know why nobody wants/wanted to talk about them, but in heated negotiations with Trogdor and now Nova some important points have come up.

Is it okay to trade population. This is done so that you can say, slap methane breathers on a methane planet and get a breather even though your people breathe oxygen.

Is it okay to trade technology.

Is it okay to abandon planets completely, scrap facilities in an oncoming invasion to spite someone who's about to invade your stuff.

That's all I can think of now. And the rules are the domain of the game administrator so the answers probably could be just yes or no, there shouldn't be any voting especially since we're so late in the game and thinking of abandoning it anyway. I/we need to know about these three things since it's important for our trade deals. Thank you.

Brian
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

brianeyci wrote:Anyway back to game administration. It's come to my attention that there is confusion on the rules. Rules suck, yadayada and I know why nobody wants/wanted to talk about them, but in heated negotiations with Trogdor and now Nova some important points have come up.

Is it okay to trade population. This is done so that you can say, slap methane breathers on a methane planet and get a breather even though your people breathe oxygen.

Is it okay to trade technology.

Is it okay to abandon planets completely, scrap facilities in an oncoming invasion to spite someone who's about to invade your stuff.

That's all I can think of now. And the rules are the domain of the game administrator so the answers probably could be just yes or no, there shouldn't be any voting especially since we're so late in the game and thinking of abandoning it anyway. I/we need to know about these three things since it's important for our trade deals. Thank you.

Brian
I don't know why you think we shouldn't vote on this. I agree that it's the admin's job, but it should at least reflect some sort of consensus. Anyway, here's my take.

No, no, and no. Simple and consistent. :)

Actually, the first one needs qualification. If you end up with someone else's colony ships through capture or because they entered your space with them and didn't feel like taking them somewhere else, so they sold or gifted them to you, that's fine. But agreeing in advance to build a colony ship for the purpose of gifting it to someone else is not fine.

Tech trading isn't fair. Maybe if two people who were really behind in tech did it to catch up, but not in any other circumstance.

Abandoning planets so the enemy doesn't get them is cheap. There's no way a planet can be evacuated that quickly, and it's just bad sportsmanship.
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brianeyci
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Post by brianeyci »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:I don't know why you think we shouldn't vote on this. I agree that it's the admin's job, but it should at least reflect some sort of consensus.
Because that's the reason why we didn't get any kind of decision before lol, not everybody gave their opinion (understandably, it's just an SE:IV game after all) and then the decision was delayed until everybody forgot about it.

I just made a super list of rules for SE:IV based on Fyron's exploit page and my own ideas in PDF format (mostly because I use open office and the formatting would be fucked if I posted the idea). I think from now on when we make games, the rules should be filled out and posted somewhere for people to look at and print out if they wanted. It would have avoided all the drama we had with B5 too. The rules sheet is customizable, with a simple yes and no and I think I've covered every possibility, but if I missed something I can add it. Suggestions welcome.

You can get it here. It's also in HTML here but the PDF looks better.

Brian
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Post by Arthur_Tuxedo »

Waiting for everyone to give an opinion is foolhardy, I agree. But making a decision without having heard at least 2 or 3 opinions is jumping the gun, in my view. An admin should be willing to make a decision without a unanimous consensus, but there is such a thing as being too assertive.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark." - Muhammad Ali

"Dating is not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a heart-pounding, stomach-wrenching, gut-churning exercise in pitting your fear of rejection and public humiliation against your desire to find a mate. Enjoy." - Darth Wong
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Post by brianeyci »

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Waiting for everyone to give an opinion is foolhardy, I agree. But making a decision without having heard at least 2 or 3 opinions is jumping the gun, in my view. An admin should be willing to make a decision without a unanimous consensus, but there is such a thing as being too assertive.
Okay. But as you can see from my rules list there are a lot of rules.

I think deciding the rules should be one of the perks of being a game administrator. Whoever's administrator next game (hopefully not me lol I changed my mind after looking at all those damn rules) should get the final say on rules especially since there's 30 of them for every possible situation. Deciding rules as they come up to be issues is a little silly because certain rules affect the way a person designs their empire or plays their empire and it should be clear from the beginning what they are I think.

For the next game, I think the rules list pdf file should be clearly linked from the PBW Game description (not everybody has time to follow or check the thread) and the game administrator should just take 5 minutes going down the list and checking off yeses or nos.

Then he could ask "is everybody agreed?" then if there's no argument it looks fine. I don't think there should be debate for every rule and plus being a game administrator's work so there should be a perk I think heh heh.

Brian
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Post by Covenant »

Ahh, well, sorry for yelling at you Brian, I honestly saw that as a really nasty way to make fun of my mod ideas in the guise of helping. But you really need to read better. If you look, I'm not asking for a single component, I'm talking about some sort of world-changing technological discovery that drastically will change the course of a civilization's evolution. That's why I compared it to Homeworld and the Hyperspace Core or to Stargate with, well, the Stargate. You just made up a bunch of funky one-use gizmo components that don't do any of the things I asked for:
Any other ideas? A good idea gives inspiration for a few flavor techs, something for combat and something for infrastructure, and would influence their starship design greatly. Anything smaller (like finding a lightsaber) would be a minor artifact. If you wanted Lightsaber artifacts available they might be, like, 250 racial points and give you some potent infantry weapons and superior boarding troops or something. Not every doohicky changes the world.
See? I'm asking for technological paradigms. Like, for example, when the US developed Nuclear Weapons back in the end of WWII. That changed our entire evolution, and would have kept changing it even more if the Soviets hadn't gotten them too. The things I'm describing in my post aren't a component that does this one stupidly unfair and unbalanced thing like you're listing with the BFG and such, but a discovery that gives them some sort of huge, specialized persona.

Think more like Star Control with each ship's special thing. I want a game of SEIV where each race is as different from each other as all the Star Control races are to each other. Really flavorful, and changes not just one component on a ship, but the tech is so general and so powerful that it's the reason they HAVE ships at all, and it influences their facilities and their ship design and their components too.
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Post by brianeyci »

No problem. For my part sorry I wasn't more specific.

If I wanted to make fun of someone I would flame them not try and hide it lol.

Well cloaked homeworlds or an invincible weapons platform that forced someone to launch ground invasions instead of glassing the world outright would drastically change the way the civilization was built but if you want stuff more drastic.

For now all I can think of is the Kryptonians and Dragonball Saiyans... sending out seedling ships with powerful warriors to take over planets. Their homeworlds would be nerfed extremely but in return they get 1 hull that is bascially invincible (or invisible take your pick) that you could put only cargo components (no weapons). Then other people would be forced to maintain powerful garrisons on every planet to repel invaders heh heh. And they'd come out of nowhere... Clark Kent or Vegeta taking over a whole planet how does that sound for a technological paradigm heh heh. It would make me paranoid as hell if a player was playing this kind of race.

Brian
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