The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-05 09:59pm

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 9/p65/?968

The thread in question if anyone cares

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-07-05 10:20pm

Hah, I figured Dan-K was you, Ender, but it took me awhile.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-06 01:10am

I never suspected it. It was a really great essay you wrote earlier, Ender!

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-07-06 01:11am

Is there a place where all the evidence supporting a substantially large clone army can be placed, like a forum, website, or some other form of a repository? Every single quote, every single picture, every single math computation, every single website supporting it, every little essay etc.?

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-06 01:17am

Mange wrote:I never suspected it. It was a really great essay you wrote earlier, Ender!

Thanks gents. I really need to update/ finish uploading it.

Fire Fly wrote:Is there a place where all the evidence supporting a substantially large clone army can be placed, like a forum, website, or some other form of a repository? Every single quote, every single picture, every single math computation, every single website supporting it, every little essay etc.?

I'm kinda building a repository. I have my essay, all my notes from it, these quotes, and someone sent me a bunch of work on the Clone Wars series. I could start tossing it all on yahoo or something. Wayne might be a good choice as well.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-07-06 01:31am

Ender wrote:I'm kinda building a repository. I have my essay, all my notes from it, these quotes, and someone sent me a bunch of work on the Clone Wars series. I could start tossing it all on yahoo or something. Wayne might be a good choice as well.

That someone may have been me. And to repeate earlier statements, your essay was very thorough and brilliant.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-06 02:23am

Oh... Dan-K = Ender... okay I'm slow.

But it was a great essay nevertheless. Good job!

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-06 09:23pm

And Razzy "millions means 200,000" is calling for it to be locked.

Yes yes, you can't win so you have to lie. You get caught lying, so you try to make everyone go away. All because you just can't admit that you were wrong.

EDIT: Apparently he's damn pissed too. yes, how dare i have litle time to spare online, much less at TFN.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-07-06 10:42pm

Ender wrote:And Razzy "millions means 200,000" is calling for it to be locked.

Yes yes, you can't win so you have to lie. You get caught lying, so you try to make everyone go away. All because you just can't admit that you were wrong.

EDIT: Apparently he's damn pissed too. yes, how dare i have litle time to spare online, much less at TFN.

Don't be surprised that Razzy wants the debate muffled. He wanted the Odds thread muffled from the beginning also. Also, the product of 200,000 and Traviss's production rate of 900,000 some is 1.8^11. For there to be hundreds of millions of droids, the number of factories must number in the mere hundreds. Isn't his position conflicting with his own views?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-07 02:32am

Ender wrote:
NEGtD, Major Manufacturers, page 17 wrote: Of the millions of droid manufacturing plants in the galaxy, the two lagest are Mechis III and Telti, which together produce a sizable percentage of all new automata. Both locations are entire worlds covered with sprawlingconstruction facilities and fully automated assembly lines; any sentient interaction in the fabrication process otehr than the most minimal supervision is unnecessary and counterproductive.
Millions of factories in the galaxy. As in, between 2,000,000 and 999,999,999. That the Confederacy would control a sizable share of them is far more likely then the idea that they had so few that 47 factories serve as a representative sample. That's not even counting the "mechworlds", of which the largest were Mechis III and Telti.

Its not explicit enough to assume that the Separatists could control most of them (though it is a reasonable assumption), especially since IIRC the Republic still made use of droids in non-combat roles. Which brings up another problem: how do we know that the "millions of factories" churned out ONLY combat droids?

NEGtD, Major Manufacturers - Baktoid Combat Automata, page 17 wrote: No longer in existance, Baktoid Combat Automata (a sister company to Baktoid Armor Workshop) cranked out innumerable droids for the Trade Federation and the Confederacy of Independent Systems in the decade and a half leading up to the conclusion of the Clone Wars. As a member of the Techno Union, Baktoid had access to the galaxies best equipment, and its factories on Geonosis and hundreds of other worlds could mass-produce battle droids in uncountable numbers.

Baktoid alone had hundreds of factories, to say nothing of the other compaines that made up the Techno Union and other factions. And they were building constantly for 15 years. [/quote]

This would actually be a more reliable lower end figure for doing calcs off of (since the source specifies a direct number and we know Baktoid is building a droid army for the Separatists.) Much harder for them to nitpick their way out of. Although in context this also tends to throw doubt on the idea that "millions of factories" are producing battle droids for the Separatists.

Finally, terms such as "inumerable" and "uncountable" hardly mesh with "100 million".

It's not a very definite term as it is that I'd hardly want to hinge an argument on it, especialyl given the tradition that "dialogue is open-ended and prone to ambiguity" in SoD-style analysis.

NEGtD, Major Manufacturers - Techno Union, page 21 wrote: Prior to the rise of the Empire, the Tecnho Union was the galaxy's greatest conglomeration of high-tech manufacturers, with members including Baktoid Combat Automata. Headed by foreman Wat Tambor, the Techno Union controlled dozens of "mechworlds," from Foundary to Metalorn, that were dominated by smoke, fire, and machinery. Anakin Skywalker killed Wat Tambor on Mustafar, and Imperial officials nationalized the Techno Union soon after.

The Techno Union had "dozens", as in at least 24, planets covered in factories. That's an insane production capacity. And it doesn't even count the independent factories.[/quote]

Again "Dozens" is a more concrete, although this one here is a bit more vague on how those worlds were used in the war (whereas we know Baktoid manufactured the droid army..) The fact that Baktoid is part of the Techno-Union is suggestive though...

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-07-07 05:00pm

Hmm, I think one of my posts was just deleted.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-07 05:06pm

Fire Fly wrote:Hmm, I think one of my posts was just deleted.

Over at TFN?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-07 05:14pm

Mange wrote:
Fire Fly wrote:Hmm, I think one of my posts was just deleted.
Over at TFN?

Don't be surprised. Posts have a tendency to quietly disappear at that corrupt forum.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-07 07:57pm

Fire Fly wrote:Hmm, I think one of my posts was just deleted.

Politely repost it, or some facsimile there of, with a note at the end that it seems to have been "accidentally" deleted or something. It might not do anything, and they might just delete it again, but it might force someone to play their hand.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-08 01:50pm

I didn't want to ask about this over at the TFN forums, so:

Pablo Higaldo addresses this issue in the latest Insider, pointing out that just because a character says something, doesn't mean it is right.

Was that in general or specifically about Odds? I'm just curious.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-08 01:54pm

Mange wrote:I didn't want to ask about this over at the TFN forums, so:

Pablo Higaldo addresses this issue in the latest Insider, pointing out that just because a character says something, doesn't mean it is right.
Was that in general or specifically about Odds? I'm just curious.

Wait, this has profound implications, not limiting to Odds. Next minute anything a character say can be declared invalid.

How true is this?

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-07-08 01:59pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, this has profound implications, not limiting to Odds. Next minute anything a character say can be declared invalid.

It always seemed like a "no fucking duh" issue to me. You just have to take it in a case-by-case basis, I don't need Pablo fucking Hidalgo to tell me that. If some asshole says something totally stupid, then we should take it with a grain of salt. If somebody says something reasonable and you can't find any contradictions, then we have a winner!

Alas, the unwashed masses do not understand.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-08 02:05pm

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Wait, this has profound implications, not limiting to Odds. Next minute anything a character say can be declared invalid.
It always seemed like a "no fucking duh" issue to me. You just have to take it in a case-by-case basis, I don't need Pablo fucking Hidalgo to tell me that. If some asshole says something totally stupid, then we should take it with a grain of salt. If somebody says something reasonable and you can't find any contradictions, then we have a winner!

Alas, the unwashed masses do not understand.

It's all fair and well to say that, and there are numerous circumstances to use such a rule to invalidate someone, like Pellaeon's stupid comment about the Executor bankrupting hte Empire.

But, knowing how some unscrupulous debaters are, they are sure to come up with bullshit reasons for invalidating what people say, and that makes the situation incredibly messy.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-07-08 02:12pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:But, knowing how some unscrupulous debaters are, they are sure to come up with bullshit reasons for invalidating what people say, and that makes the situation incredibly messy.

They can try, but they would still need to back their shit up. Arguing "I don't think X is true because Pablo said that people can be wrong" doesn't mean X isn't true, it means that person is a dumbass. That doesn't work at TFN, obviously, but it's the fact of the matter.

I guess it's nice to see LFL (potentially!) making concessions to the techies, however.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-08 02:31pm

They're not making consessions to us, they're making consessions to their own material, which they felt a need to contradict.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2006-07-08 02:34pm

VT-16 wrote:They're not making consessions to us, they're making consessions to their own material, which they felt a need to contradict.

Yes, quite true.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-07-08 02:58pm

VT-16 wrote:They're not making consessions to us, they're making consessions to their own material, which they felt a need to contradict.

Absolutely. Darth Garden Gnome is also entirely correct, I was just interested as this came from Hidalgo and I'm curious as if it was specifically about Odds.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-08 03:00pm

If this came out recently, it's most likely meant to address the 3 million issue.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-07-08 03:04pm

I'd like to see the entire SW Insider passage posted so that we'll be sure about the context.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-08 04:09pm

Jim Raynor wrote:I'd like to see the entire SW Insider passage posted so that we'll be sure about the context.

Its not about Odds, its about Obi wan's verbal duel with Anakin in ROTS, and about how Obi wan is wrong. He makes the point that just because someone says somethign doesn't make its true.