The debate leaves the Internet

[Kane Starkiller]

All that you need to know about Brin is summed up in one paragraph at the end of his AOTC critique:

The biggest irony is this -- I could scribble a 3-paragraph outline that would save Lucas. It would explain every awful inconsistency/paradox in his universe. It would make the #!#*& coincidences all work out... including the totally predictable lunacy of having Obi-Wan grab baby Luke and hide him from his darkside father... on Darth Vader's home planet, in his old home town! This is the core scenario that we know will happen in "Episode Three" and it is the most towering of three dozen real plot horrors. But the amazing thing is that I see a simple way for Lucas to climb out of this hell.

Can you say a pompous braggart? He could "scribble" a 3-paragraph outline that could "save" Lucas. But curiously Lucas's films make billions while his Uplift novels are a complete unknown.

And then he reveales his genious for all to see:

In fact, a scenario is possible, if Vader and Obi-Wan conspire together against BOTH Emperor and Yoda. Go on, follow all the movies with this possibility in mind.

Oh.My.God! How brilliant! Why didn't Lucas ever thought of this?! It all makes sense now! Except of course Vader killing Obi-Wan, Vader slicing his son's hand and goading him to the dark side and so on and so forth.
Hey maybe he could throw in a couple of talking dolphins for a good measure.

I once spent an hour scribbling notes -- the plot for Episode Three writes itself!

It's so amusing watching him wave his hands trying to get attention. If only someone would notice your brilliant work, if only they could see how much you are superior to Lucas as a SF writer.
If only people would see that talking dolphins that fly around in spaceships are so much more interesting than lightsabers and lightning wielding Sith Lords.

[Srynerson]

As someone with an economics degree I feel compelled to offer the observation that if Product X is "driving" Product Y from the market, that's actually considered strong evidence that Product X is a good substitute for Product Y, since it indicates that consumers would rather spend their scarce dollars on Product X.

That's an appeal to popularity, but it actually has a degree of merit. Fiction is entertainment after all, and what we know under the heading "Star Wars novels" have easily been more commercially successful than any single work from a "grand master of science fiction." Much in the same way, statistics will show reality shows like Survivor or The Real World to be far more economically successful than any one sci fi show, excepting, possibly, Trek. Because their production costs are so insanely low, we'd be forced to conclude that reality shows, by virtue of popularity, are an equally good substitute for most other TV shows.

And from an economical perspective, that'd probably be correct. Luckily, nothing says the economical perspective is relevant to our enjoyment.

Most SW novels, like Star Trek Voyager and Ricki Lake, intentionally pander to a deplorably low common denominator. Brilliant authorship or cinematography may net you popular acclaim, but all too frequently it's in the marketing and recycling of tried and true concepts that the big bucks lie.

That's certainly fair. I was primarily approaching the point tongue-in-cheek.

[Eleas]

That's certainly fair. I was primarily approaching the point tongue-in-cheek.

And I, from a desire to be overly verbose.

[RedImperator]

3. Star Wars novels are poor substitute for real science fiction and are driving real SF off the shelves.

Well, I'll give him this point. Every piece of EU trash that sells well because it has "Star Wars" on the cover is a spot on the shelf that could have been taken by a better book. While there's plenty of garbage sci-fi that's no affiliated with SW, that shit winds up sent to the bargain bin in six weeks to make room for something else.

Of course the Trek tie-in novels are largely guilty of the same thing.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, when Brin says "real sci-fi", we know he means "my sci-fi".

[RedImperator]

Of course, when Brin says "real sci-fi", we know he means "my sci-fi".

I've read some of his stuff, and to be fair, he's not bad. He has a knack for building memorable worlds and setting interesting stories in them (his characterization stinks, but that's unfortunately common in sci-fi). The Postman novel was a lot better than the movie. None of this justifies his wild ravings about Star Wars, especially when his favorite franchise Trek is guilty of a lot of the exact same stuff (Picard sneering at the primitives from his "evolved" position isn't elitist?), but he does know how to write.

[Elfdart]

I actually debated this asshole a few years ago in an exchange of e-mails. Sorry, I lost them about a year before I found SDN, but he was a nutter and a half.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=86639

I checked out the site and I think it's a first: an advertising campaign disguised as a discussion forum. The only problem is, it's too obvious. The people Brin "debates" in his book appear to be patsies brought in for the express purpose of taking a dive, and every other link connects to the page to buy the book. If this bullshit were done more artfully it could be a clever way to sell books.

[Lord Pounder]

So basically David Brin has a bee in his arse because Lucas won't give him a job. Think about it, Lucas even hired Vonda Mc Fucking Intyre but won't give this shit kicker a job, that really says something.

[Patrick Degan]

Of course, when Brin says "real sci-fi", we know he means "my sci-fi".

I've read some of his stuff, and to be fair, he's not bad. He has a knack for building memorable worlds and setting interesting stories in them (his characterization stinks, but that's unfortunately common in sci-fi). The Postman novel was a lot better than the movie. None of this justifies his wild ravings about Star Wars, especially when his favorite franchise Trek is guilty of a lot of the exact same stuff (Picard sneering at the primitives from his "evolved" position isn't elitist?), but he does know how to write.

I'm sorry, but Brin lost me with Startide Rising and its clear from his rantings that he's got a huge inferiority complex in addition to a lack of talent. To paraphrase Douglas Adams, I wouldn't hire David Brin to write ad-copy.

[Elheru Aran]

And lets not forget Wertham's claim that Batman and Robin were homosexual partners.

Obviously he was grasping at straws, there.

Let's just say, artists back in the day weren't shy about inserting visual innuendo like that. The guy who made Wonder Woman was always having her tied up, for instance... he also happened to have a bondage/domination fetish. Hardly coincidence. So Wertham may or may not have had a point at the time; but as Golden Age comics are hardly canon these days, it's irrevelant really.

And I wonder if that whole McCarthy anti-Superman thing is what had Reeve spouting 'Truth, Justice, and America' or whatever it was in Superman?

Anyway. From what I can see Brin is just having another of his hissy fits... nothing to be concerned about, nobody gives a shit about him anyway.

[Ghost Rider]

Why do people revive the dead? The topic died.

As for the matter of the fact, the point of WW was to show a man dominating a woman more then not but wasn't even the focus of Wertham's witchhunt. The majority was implication of homosexuality in many books(primary Robin) with the secondary being crime and horror books of the day telling youth how to kill. He couldn't give a fuck about Wonder Woman and never made anything out it.

And McCarthy had fuck all to do with Superman's phrase, given he was using it in WORLD WAR 2.

So yes, you present two pieces of conjectures that are wrong and then end it with "Brin being dumb." Thank you for this particular insight, that no one has come upon.

Lock.