Admiral Piett and Executor stay in the fight.

[Darth Wong]

What about DS2? There is no way to estimate the level of damage caused to DS2 by Executor crashing into it, but it must surely have disrupted defensive fire over a wide area, not to mention causing other system failures. And the fact that Executor was taken out of the fight so quickly may have only been a matter of time, but time matters.

[Vicious]

What's wrong with a pair of Star Cruisers and several Star Destroyer-level vessels being able to pummel the shit out of a Star Dreadnought? Especially since the Rebels were basically in a suicide mission. Either they fail and the DS2 makes it and they eventually get owned, in which case they might as well go out kicking and the Executor is a damn big target, or the fighters manage to take out the DS2, in which case having already weakened the enemy's command vessel will make it that much easier to turn the tide of battle.

In regards to it's escorts, we see one of them get vaped, and it seems clear that the Rebels went all-or-nothing and ignored most of the escorts in exchange for swarming the Executor after Ackbar's order.

What's wrong with 2 cruisers and 5 or 6 Destroyers taking down the shields of a Dreadnought before said Dreadnough[t] and 30 plus destroyers take out the 7 attacking ships?? <snip useless comment>

A Dreadnought and 30+ (if Wookiee-pedia is to be trusted, it was more like 40+ ISDs) Destroyers which were ordered not to fire on the Rebel ships.

Again I ask: what's wrong with 2 Star Cruisers and 5-6 Star Destroyer-level vessels from being able to cause Executor signifigant damage?

[VT-16]

which were ordered not to fire on the Rebel ships.

Are you daft? That order was not in effect if they tried to make a run for it, like we saw in the film.

[Vicious]

which were ordered not to fire on the Rebel ships.

Are you daft? That order was not in effect if they tried to make a run for it, like we saw in the film.

Well, fuck me sideways. Ok, nothing to see here. I forgot about the fleet returning fire after the Rebels came about. It has been something like seven years since I last sat through ROTJ (possibly my least favorite of the six movies), rather than skipping to Luke vs. Vader.

Again, major d'oh! and apologies.

[Connor MacLeod]

Torpedo spheres carry weapons in many order of magnitude larger and in numbers than starfighters. I don't even want to imagine how many starfighters are needed to just put a hole through the shields. I reckon hundreds.

They're also more effective against shields than they are against armor. Which is specifically stated in the ISB. (And supported by the fact that WOTC: Starships of the Galaxy states that Torpedo spheres cannot destroy planets, and the ISB notes that a torpedo sphere is less powerful than the Executor.)

In order to "bust" a planetary shield by brute forcee (which they never did even disregaridng the "shield penetration" facto r- since they only create localized, microsecond-holes in the shields to begin with) Would require that a single torpedo (much less an entire volley) be capable of mass-scattering a planet. Not as violent as the DS, but still pretty damn fast as far as those things go. (maybe I should point out this is frequently what we observe occuring in the X-wing novels.. Isard's Revenge against the Golan is almost exactly like how a torpedo sphere operates. Same with the Corruptor's shields in Bacta War.)

Moreover, we know of shield-piercing technology from other sources:

a.) AOTC: Zam Wessell's remote penetrates the security shields around Amidala's apartment.

b.) ROTS: Buzz droids are capable of penetrating shields to damage targets. (ROTS:ICS and I believe the VD as well.)

c.) Empire's End: The Galaxy' Gun's hyperspace missiles are stated to be designed to "neutralize" Security shielding.

D.) Black Fleet Crisis: we know of the existence of "plasma torpedoes" which can overload shielding.

E.) Force commander: The existence of ground vehicles specially designed for "taking out" shields on objects.

F.) Individual forcefield penetrations (Tales of the mos eissley cantina, EGW&T, and NEGW&T.)

I'm willing to concede this possiblity, but it still demands that something tear down the particle and ray shielding of the Executor, even if it were a local breach.

What part of "we know canonically and officially that forcefield penetration technologies/tactics exist" did you not understand?

On the use of starfighters for the turkey shootout, I think it was a stupid idea. Starfighters on their own can't damage capital ships, and would still require capital ships to breach the shields.

Funny, I seem to recall the Rebels being more than a little concerned by the possibilty of TIEs going after the capital ships. (More specifically, Lando's orders that they "draw fire away frm the cruisers" and the concern about TIEs going after "the medical frigate." Clearly those TIEs could inflict damage of some kind on capital ships.)

Moreover, Palpatine's instructions did not explicitly say the fleet bare its throat for a slaughter.

Why the hell does Palpatine care about them? Answer: he doesn't. Did you forget he was perfectly willing to blow up the entire Sancutary Moon (and all his troops and personnel on it) to suit his own ends? To let Luke kill Vader?

Piett merely said, "We only merely need to hold them here." We are not told how they were supposed to hold them here.

One would naturally presume by any means neccessary short of blowing them to pieces, since that's what the Emperor intended to do with the superlaser (you know, to help piss Luke off?) The "firing to disable" is only neccessary insofar as to explain a.) why the Imperials, who had vastly MORE firepower available than the Rebels even ignoring the Executor, did not slaughter the Rebels in a stand up fight and b.) especially given the fact we clearly KNOW there was at least some fighting (by what we see in the movie and what is described in the novel.)

Or are you going to tell me the Rebels actually severely outgunned the Imperials or something equally retarded?

Further more, if the shootout between the Venator and the Invisible Hand is to be of any guide, a duel between capital ships even for disabling is every bit brutal.

... which is supposed to prove what exactly regarding the ROTJ battle?

[Connor MacLeod]

To be quite honest, I don't recall many (actually, none--but that is just what I recall) heavy turbolaser hits to the Executor. Plenty of laser fire, and medium cannon fire from the super nebulon B, but the only bigs hits I recall seem to be missile-like.

Ackbar gives the order to "concentrate all fire" on the Executor, remember?

If you watch the space around the Executor from Acbar's POV there are occassional huge white explosions--but no bolt leading up to it. It was my impression the Executor was primarily hit with explosive devices, not turbolasers. Those could take out the particle shields without damaging the ray shields as much, in addition to any penetration aids that may have been employed.

Also: supposedly missiles are not frequently used because point defense can track and destroy them. Well, at point blank range there isn't very much time to track them. I imagine Endor saw more missile use than many battles in recent memory.

Heavy missile bombardment is one option (this may be analogous to one tactic I believe Mike suggested the Separatists emplyoed in ROTS: using heavy projectile/matter weapons at close range when the Empire didn't expect it.) This may also account for the presence of the transports (since the novel mentions explosives-equipped rebel ships sent on ramming courses with some Imperial vessels.)

However, the impactors/explosions are still going to be delivering energy to the target (which is still going to be absorbed by the same heat sinks.) The onyl difference will probably be the momentum in some cases (physical impactors such as ramming attacks) which the shields won't be able to help against.

[Connor MacLeod]

You're assuming facts not in evidence (at least insofar as the movies are concerned). We know Piett was not authorized to initiate an attack on the Rebel fleet, as that would go counter to demonstrating the "fully armed and operational battle station," but we don't know what Piett was authorized to do should the Rebels try to escape. I was assuming a plain vanilla blockade, where any attempt to break through the blockade would be discouraged in any way possible, including destroying the enemy forces.

Dude, you need to learn to fucking READ your opponents argumenst before replying. My whole fucking point is that Piett's orders dictate he NOT destroy them, but simply "keep them from escaping." Which, given that we see ships exchanging fire (in addition to what is described in the novel) yet evidnetly not wiping them out (since as the ROTJ and HTTE novel indicates, the Imperials were stronger and tougher than their Rebel counterparts.)

In other words, there is absolutely NOTHING to assume. (For that matter its fairly obvious from the movie that "not attacking" means "don't blow the ships up" because thats what Palpy does with the DS2. Even though we still see the starships firing on one another!)

Oh yeah, and knock off the Darkstar-esque "movies are the only relevant information" BS. I don't buy into it.

Again, depending on the orders Piett was given, he may have been authorized to escalate containment procedures on Rebel forces to shoot-to-kill. We don't know what Piett was authorized to do if the Rebels tried to escape, so I assume that we have a plain vanilla containment, which includes authorization to escalate to lethal force.

Stop appealing to pointless semanitcs. We SEE the Imperials firing back on the Rebels in the movie, even though they WEREN'T destroying them in job lots like they ought to have been. We KNOW from the novelization that the Rebels and Imperials were exchanging fire even THOUGH Piett was under orders not to "attack" them, ,but rather let the Emperor destroy them. We KNOW from the novelization likewise that the Rebels were outmatched by the Imperial warships. We ALSO know that in some cases (IE the communications ship) that some Rebel ships WERE destroyed in capital ship engagements.

Really, its not that fucking hard to figure out. Palpy wants to destroy them himself. He orders Piett not to "attack", but only to "keep them from escaping." Yet we see Imperial ships still firing on the Rebels (and evidently exchanigng heavy enough fire that they still destroy at least some ships despite standing orders.) Do you really need it spelled out for you?

Okay, disabling only is not "all that fucking difficult," but if you're pressed for time or getting pounded, destroying removes the danger quicker.

Except, that as pointed out, Piett was under constraints NOT to destroy them. The fact that those orders make his job harder is not enough reason for him to violate said orders. (Its not as if he's not been in that position before - IE using a holonet transmission that forced the dropping of shields in the Hoth asteroid field in TESB, resulting in an asteroid collision with the bridge tower of an ISD.)

I think your timing is a bit off. The Imperials sent in fighters before the Rebels were even attempting to escape. Lando noted that only the fighters were attacking, and wondering what the Star Destroyers were waiting for.
This is before the DSII blasted away its first Rebel ship, and before anyone on the Rebel side sent any orders to retreat. How is this part of the containment if the fighters engaged before the Rebels were attempting to retreat?

Unless you're telling me Piett received his orders AFTER deploying fighters, I fail to see how the "timing" point is supposed to change anything. OR are you telling me Piett is simply going to WAIT until he sees the Rebels starting to try to run before he does anything to stop them?

Anyhow, fighters, as noted, can quite effectively damage a starship's (external) components, but it is doubtful they can actually DESTROY the ships themselves outright (especially TIEs.) We've known this fact ever since ANH (Battle of Yavin.)

[VT-16]

It has been something like seven years since I last sat through ROTJ

You're excused.

My whole fucking point is that Piett's orders dictate he NOT destroy them, but simply "keep them from escaping."

And what do you think "keeping them from escaping" means? If they try to make a run for it, they shoot, as we see in the film.

From what I've seen of the background material and novelization, the standard Mon Cal cruiser seems on par with an ISD. It's only WEG induced bullshit that started the claim of "Mon Cal Star Cruisers are half as strong as ISDs". If we go by that, the Rebels got more going for them, barring the Executor, And if their Home One battleships are even stronger than their smaller cruisers, it becomes a little more plausible that they could at least strike at the Executor like they did.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Moreover, we know of shield-piercing technology from other sources:

a.) AOTC: Zam Wessell's remote penetrates the security shields around Amidala's apartment.

b.) ROTS: Buzz droids are capable of penetrating shields to damage targets. (ROTS:ICS and I believe the VD as well.)

c.) Empire's End: The Galaxy' Gun's hyperspace missiles are stated to be designed to "neutralize" Security shielding.

D.) Black Fleet Crisis: we know of the existence of "plasma torpedoes" which can overload shielding.

E.) Force commander: The existence of ground vehicles specially designed for "taking out" shields on objects.

F.) Individual forcefield penetrations (Tales of the mos eissley cantina, EGW&T, and NEGW&T.)

What part of "we know canonically and officially that forcefield penetration technologies/tactics exist" did you not understand?

The only known technology that breached the Executor's shields is so rare and expensive that we do not know whether the Rebels ever found the means to reacquire it. I would point to the siege of Yavin when the Rebels launched a desperate attack and used some rare crystals to disrupt and bring down the Executor's shields. But those crystals were so rare the Rebels never apparently used them again.

Further more, ICS and the Essential Guide to Weapons showed us a rough schematic of a proton torpedo and concussion missles and no where was mentioned any shield penetration capabilities, much less any feature that showed any promise of penetrating shields. Even if they tried the localised penetration by pinpointing a small spot of the shield only, is it possible with a ship with more particle shielding than any other known ship in existence? So unless it's some nonstandard warhead that we do not know, there isn't much we can say about this other than speculate. If overwhelming shield points is so easy, then we return to the old argument which fans of the X-wing series like to try to validate using game mechanics. Plus, it took 80 warheads to overwhelm the frontal shielding of the Lusankya according to X-wing: Bacta War, a book I might note to be extremely questionable.

I believe if I recall correctly, that Plasma torpedoes do not overwhelm shielding. I would point to the engagment led by Commodore Brand where a Warrior Gunship used heavy anti-cap ship missles to overwhelm the particle shields BEFORE the cracking of the "first egg" and then the Yevethan ship exploded. It is more likely the Rebels used such anti-capship warheads, which is a possibility, or used transport laden with so much explosives, in addition to maximum power blasts from their HTLs, to overwhelm the Executor's shielding,

Funny, I seem to recall the Rebels being more than a little concerned by the possibilty of TIEs going after the capital ships. (More specifically, Lando's orders that they "draw fire away frm the cruisers" and the concern about TIEs going after "the medical frigate." Clearly those TIEs could inflict damage of some kind on capital ships.)

I suppose a careening TIE could smash into a bridge and destroy the vessel utterly on its own. A medical frigate with most of its weaponry and defence equipment removed is hardly an example for anything. The ship can barely defend itself from waves of bomber attacks and relies on escorts. Moreover, bombing runs are suicidal without capital ship support. The Rebels do have lots of Correllian gunships you know. The Rebels had every confidence of withstanding this wave of fighters.

Why the hell does Palpatine care about them? Answer: he doesn't. Did you forget he was perfectly willing to blow up s the entire Sancutary Moon (and all his troops and personnel on it) to suit his own ends? To let Luke kill Vader?

No, nothing explict was said, so unless some order in black and white was stated is ever shown to us, there is nothing that tells us explicitly what Piett was told to do aside from statement that he was told to keep the Rebels here. Besides, what's the point of an Interdictor net then? The Death Star has no hyperdrive, having the interdictor net would be pointless if we go by your logic. Unless you suggest the Imperials go after the escaping fleet and disable them and then bring them back to the Death Star for them to have target practice.

Not only that, towards the end of the Death Star's existence, it appears the Alliance assumed some kind of orbit around the Death Star with the Imperial Navy actively engaging the ships. This would also explain how the Executor fell into the Death Star. If the Imperial Fleet had kept to its original position, I don't think the Executor's collision would have happened. It was further suggested in the novel that the Rebel Fleet was bombarding the Death Star's surface if I recall correctly. That suggests that both fleets pulled closer to the Death Star instead of the Imperial Navy pulling back to allow the Death Star to fire on the ships. Either way, the Imperial navy moved in to engage the Rebels actively and Rebel ships WERE being destroyed. The communication vessel did take out one star cruiser before the Falcon and some fighters took advantaged of its current vulnerability and destroyed it.

One would naturally presume by any means neccessary short of blowing them to pieces, since that's what the Emperor intended to do with the superlaser (you know, to help piss Luke off?) The "firing to disable" is only neccessary insofar as to explain a.) why the Imperials, who had vastly MORE firepower available than the Rebels even ignoring the Executor, did not slaughter the Rebels in a stand up fight and b.) especially given the fact we clearly KNOW there was at least some fighting (by what we see in the movie and what is described in the novel.)

Or are you going to tell me the Rebels actually severely outgunned the Imperials or something equally retarded?

Or perhaps that the WEG Stats are simply flawed since we seem to be basing our arguments off those stats? The main armnament of the ISD requires her captain to orientate his ship such that the turrets can turn to face the incoming warship and fire upon then. We do not quite know the maximum orientation, though if the Venator is to be of guide, it seems that they don't seem to be able to point it forward. If he doesn't he then is at the mercy of the incoming ship which could have placed her heavy turrets near the front and opened fire? Note that we have never been fully educated on how a Mon Cal cruiser is armed.

.. which is supposed to prove what exactly regarding the ROTJ battle?

That there is little difference between firing to disable and firing to kill? Note that Rebel star cruisers were being destroyed by the Imperials as I mentioned earlier.

[Wyrm]

Dude, you need to learn to fucking READ your opponents argumenst before replying. My whole fucking point is that Piett's orders dictate he NOT destroy them, but simply "keep them from escaping." Which, given that we see ships exchanging fire (in addition to what is described in the novel) yet evidnetly not wiping them out (since as the ROTJ and HTTE novel indicates, the Imperials were stronger and tougher than their Rebel counterparts.)

Hey, you didn't say SHIT about the novels before this. I know; I checked. All the novel discussion was coming from Knife, and what he said wasn't relevant to whether or not Piett was authorized to kill Rebels should they try to escape.

Goddamnit, that's why I qualified "You're assuming facts not in evidence" with "(at least insofar as the movies are concerned)." I fucking told everyone that the argument wouldn't hold up if the novels said otherwise. You say they do. Fine. Point conceeded.

Oh yeah, and knock off the Darkstar-esque "movies are the only relevant information" BS. I don't buy into it.

Fuck you. That wasn't what I was saying. I was admitting the limits of my knowledge, nothing more.

[Connor MacLeod]

And what do you think "keeping them from escaping" means? If they try to make a run for it, they shoot, as we see in the film.

Where did we see them try to make a run for it exactly? The closest was the evasive action they took to avoid hitting the shield. Then they sat down for a slugging match (did you forget the explosions we see from the battle at long range when Luke is watching from the Death Star?) For that matter, we know from the ROTJ novelization that both sides were engaging in long range duelling prior to moving to point blank range (the Liberty, for exampley, was noted to be engaged in a long range duel with the Imperials before being destroyed, and Home One took long range laser hits powerful enough to shake the ship as well.)

From what I've seen of the background material and novelization, the standard Mon Cal cruiser seems on par with an ISD. It's only WEG induced bullshit that started the claim of "Mon Cal Star Cruisers are half as strong as ISDs"

Not very familiar with the ROTJ novelization then, are you? The novel makes it clear that the Imperial ships are tougher and more heavily armed than the Rebel ships. That's not even factoring in the Executor. And there is of course the mention of the firepower disparity Thrawn makes in Heir to the Empire.

Of course, I'd have thought it would be self evident from Ackbar's "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers" that he considers the Rebels outgunned...

If we go by that, the Rebels got more going for them, barring the Executor, And if their Home One battleships are even stronger than their smaller cruisers, it becomes a little more plausible that they could at least strike at the Executor like they did.

How? At MOST Home one is maybe worth 9-10 ISDS by volume alone. The Executor ALONE is worth 100 ISD at least (again based on volume.) You'd need about a dozen Home One type vessels (assuming equal capacity) minimum to overwhelm shield dissipation, much less to knock down said shields, and that's not even including the other Imperial vessels present! (I should not need to point out that we know of no evidence suggesting so many Home One type vessels were present - indeed, the novelization tends to suggest otherwise.) Of course, that doesn't include all the other support ships (the ISDs and the Tectors and the communications ship..)

[Connor MacLeod]

Hey, you didn't say SHIT about the novels before this. I know; I checked.

You didn't look hard eough then, because it should be quite clear I never made mention of any evidence from ANY sourcee. It wasn't precisely neccesary to even bring up the novel (or HTTE) until it was evident that you were arguing from a position of ignorance (since you are evidently unaware of the sources relevant to the incident.)

All the novel discussion was coming from Knife, and what he said wasn't relevant to whether or not Piett was authorized to kill Rebels should they try to escape.

So then why are you bringing him up if he's not relevant? My mention of the novels pertain SPECIFICALLY to my point, if you've been bothering to pay attention. Which you apparently have not bothered to.

Goddamnit, that's why I qualified "You're assuming facts not in evidence" with "(at least insofar as the movies are concerned)." I fucking told everyone that the argument wouldn't hold up if the novels said otherwise. You say they do. Fine. Point conceeded.

The novels are a purely secondary consideration (in the sense they basically support what should be basically obvious from the movies: Piett is ordered by the Emperor "not to attack" but only to prevent escape. Despite this, we see Imperial ships firing on Rebel vessels (both at long range and at close range.) Which is supported by what is described in the novelization. More to the point, we also know (from the movies as well as hte novel) that the Imperial ships are tougher and more powerful than their Rebel counterparts. Lastly, we see that the Emperor personally wants to destroy the Rebel ships using the superlaser, ratehr than using the fleet to do so.

I would have assumed that the conclusion one would draw from the fact that the Imperials do attack, but clearly employing only enough firepower to damage or disable the Rebel craft, hence why the Rebels appear to hold their own despite the fact they hold an advantage in firepower, if not in numbers or size of ships.

Fuck you. That wasn't what I was saying. I was admitting the limits of my knowledge, nothing more.

Fuck you too. This wouldn't have been a problem if you hadn't assumed I was just making shit up and decide to pursue what is clearly a questionable argument. It pisses me off when people accuse me of making shit up, especially when its evident they aren't understanding the point I am trying to make.

And if you're not sure about something, ask for clarification. Its' not exactly as if I'm immune from the burden of proof rule or anything.

[Connor MacLeod]

The only known technology that breached the Executor's shields is so rare and expensive that we do not know whether the Rebels ever found the means to reacquire it. I would point to the siege of Yavin when the Rebels launched a desperate attack and used some rare crystals to disrupt and bring down the Executor's shields. But those crystals were so rare the Rebels never apparently used them again.

There was precisely one, ,and it only had enough power to actually do it once. But I like how you evidently assume there must be only ONE way of doing that, despite the obvious fact that other sources suggest that's not true. (note that at no time was it ever actually SAID that the Power Gem was the only known way of breaching shields.) There's also the fact the gems evidently only worked against 'magnetic" shields. Note that they didn't really "bring down" the shields.. they allowed the ship to bypass the "magnetic shields" and slip inside (which is funny, considering that according to the Radio Drama, the Yavin rebel fighters had countermeasures designed to let them slip past the Death Star's magnetic shields...)

Of course, as the Torpedo sphere example demonstrates, you don' have to actually "neutralize" the shield to bring it down, just weaken it (torpedo spheres clearly don't allow the torps to neutralize the shield, otherwise the bombardment by turbolasers would be unneccessary. They simply are designed to be better at knocking otu shields, much like plasma torpedoes in the BFC era. Which happens to coincide with the fact Torpedo Sphere's can't blow up planets, which they'd be capable of if the torpedoes had thr brute force firepower to knock down shields.)

Of course, ,one must beg the question of why you evidently choose to ignore the examples mentioned (particularily the canon ones) simply to focus on the "Power Gem" interpretation from a single source. I could just as easily point out that given the AOTC reference (bolstered by the ITW:AOTC book and I think the ICS) as well as what is established in the ROTS:ICS and VD for the buzz droids "shield piercing" capabilities that your claim is overriden by higher sources. (Or rather, your interpretation of the comic is overriden, since as I said, nothing in the comic actually says the power gems are the only known shield-piercing device in the universe.)

Further more, ICS and the Essential Guide to Weapons showed us a rough schematic of a proton torpedo and concussion missles and no where was mentioned any shield penetration capabilities, much less any feature that showed any promise of penetrating shields.

So, clearly, you assume there must be one all-encompassing type of concussion missile or proton torpedo.. why? I guess by your logic all proton torpedoes must yield 1 kiloton (as per the SWTJ) and all concussion missiles must be just under 200 MT (from the AOTC:ICS) If anything, that logic makes things WORSE than it does make them better. (want to tell me how many megaton range concussion missiles would be needed to knock out a warship's shields?)

Even if they tried the localised penetration by pinpointing a small spot of the shield only, is it possible with a ship with more particle shielding than any other known ship in existence?

Uh, gee. We know that shield-penetration technologies can exist for capital ships (plasma torpedoes) and fighters (Buzz droids) up to planetary-shield level installations (Galaxy gun warheads and torpedo spheres.) as well as for tiny personalized security screens and forcefields (Zam wessel's remote as well as the personal forcefield disruptors mentioned in the EGW&T.) (Wow! technology scaling in the Star Wars universe! We never saw that before. Except for hypermatter reactors. And ion engines. And Superlasers. And REpuslors, and...)

Of course, I can also just point to teh Radio drama, where rebel fighters countermeasures allowed them to penetrate the Death Star's magnetic shields qujite easily, and the DS is far more massive and more powerful than the Executor.

So unless it's some nonstandard warhead that we do not know, there isn't much we can say about this other than speculate.

There's a difference between speculation and drawing conclusions based off of already-known technologies. I love how you cotinually treat the ide aof "shield penetration technology" as if it were a mere assumption, despite the fact that it has been repeatedly fucking DEMONSTRATED, up to and including the movies.

Of course, by your logic, we would also be faulty to conclude that ISD TLs might have comparable range to Venator TLs since it isn't specifically stated. (Or, for that matter, that ISD TLs might be more powerful due to differences in volume, because linear scaling by volume isn't explicitly stated either.)

If overwhelming shield points is so easy, then we return to the old argument which fans of the X-wing series like to try to validate using game mechanics.

So, by your "logic", evidently the Executor's all powerful shield is simply a magnetic field that the power gem overrode, since you seem only interested in using the Archie Goodwin comics as proof to the exclusion of all else.

Should I point out that according to this comic, a single, two-man starfighter was basically considered powerful enough to cripple/damage the Executor once it got through the shields. (IE it was considered a threat. And that's to say nothing of the fact the Falcon actually crippled the Executor....)

Plus, it took 80 warheads to overwhelm the frontal shielding of the Lusankya according to X-wing: Bacta War, a book I might note to be extremely questionable.

And let's ignore the fact that they were firing capital-scale missiles of unknown size and yield at the Lusankya. Or did you forget that Booster and Mirax Terrik ordered capital-scale proton torpedoes and concussion missiles from Karrde?

I believe if I recall correctly, that Plasma torpedoes do not overwhelm shielding.

ACtually they do. That's why they're called "shield busters". More specifically, they're designed to take out ray shields. Page 292 of the paperback version of shield of lies covers this.

I would point to the engagment led by Commodore Brand where a Warrior Gunship used heavy anti-cap ship missles to overwhelm the particle shields BEFORE the cracking of the "first egg" and then the Yevethan ship exploded.

Nope. The Gunship fired some missiles (7 CM-9s IIRC,) plus concussion missiles launched by the bombers (9 CM-5s, IIRC.) and that (according to the scene as described in Tyrant's Test) pushed them close to the limit when the first plasma torp detonated, which evidently knocked them down, allowing the second one to hit (whereupon the thrustship evidently blew up.)

Of course, all that really tells us is that plasma torps can do physical damage to hull and particle shields as well as their ray-shield disabling traits. Hardly inconsistent with what I've mentioned.

It is more likely the Rebels used such anti-capship warheads, which is a possibility, or used transport laden with so much explosives, in addition to maximum power blasts from their HTLs, to overwhelm the Executor's shielding,

Gee, if they had such heavy warheads available and in abundance, one woul dhave to wonder why Ackbar admitted that the Imperials outgunned them, and that they would not "last long" against the Imperials.

As for ramming ships, that's about the only other vialbe tactic, excecpt that it's limited by the simple fact that its not a guaranteed victory, either. (aside from the issue of how one would elt such a ship get close enough to actually be rammed without dodging or destroying it.)

I suppose a careening TIE could smash into a bridge and destroy the vessel utterly on its own.

I question whether "ramming" qualifies as the sort of "fire" Lando was talking about.

A medical frigate with most of its weaponry and defence equipment removed is hardly an example for anything. The ship can barely defend itself from waves of bomber attacks and relies on escorts.

Uh, the only "defenses" it had stripped out were its fighters, and half its weaponry removed (6 TLs and 8 laser cannons remained.) I saw nothing in the EGV&V, NEGV&V, or SWTJ to indicate that the Medical frigate had its shielding weakened as well. If anything, ,the NEGV&V indicates it had shield generators (and other redundancies) added.

Moreover, bombing runs are suicidal without capital ship support. The Rebels do have lots of Correllian gunships you know. The Rebels had every confidence of withstanding this wave of fighters.

And yet, it was deemed important enough to divert the fighters into distracting the fighters from attackign the capital ships.

No, nothing explict was said, so unless some order in black and white was stated is ever shown to us, there is nothing that tells us explicitly what Piett was told to do aside from statement that he was told to keep the Rebels here.

Gee, he's told not to attack, but simply to keep them from escaping. Yet.. the Imperials fire on the Rebels. And they have a qualitative advantage over said Rebels, yet fail to utterly wipe them out. What was the point of the Imperials even firing then? Just an attempt to make them uncomfortable?

I'm getting a little tired of this "We can't draw conclusions and we must be told everything explicitly" nonsense of yours. Just what in the fucking hell do you think Piett meant by "attack" then if it wasn't to open fire and destroy ships? Boarding actions? Character assasination?

Besides, what's the point of an Interdictor net then? The Death Star has no hyperdrive, having the interdictor net would be pointless if we go by your logic.

No, because interdictors are still ships (and hence viable targets for destruction.) Moreover, depriving them of their hyperdrive does not negate their other propulsion systems, nor does it negate their weapons systems.

Unless you suggest the Imperials go after the escaping fleet and disable them and then bring them back to the Death Star for them to have target practice.

Oh for fuck's sake, do you think Piett or the other Imperial commanders are too stupid to figure out that a ship whose engines are disabled can't escape?. Evidently you think the Imperial Navy is consistently made up of complete, inept morons.

Not only that, towards the end of the Death Star's existence, it appears the Alliance assumed some kind of orbit around the Death Star with the Imperial Navy actively engaging the ships. This would also explain how the Executor fell into the Death Star. If the Imperial Fleet had kept to its original position, I don't think the Executor's collision would have happened.

Wow! How shocking.. the Imperial fleet... moved! Don't see how this exactly this is supposed to supportt your argument, though.

It was further suggested in the novel that the Rebel Fleet was bombarding the Death Star's surface if I recall correctly. That suggests that both fleets pulled closer to the Death Star instead of the Imperial Navy pulling back to allow the Death Star to fire on the ships.

Uh, no. We know from the ROTS:ICS as well as Rebel Dream (to say nothing of Hoth and Vader's intention to bombard Hoth at extended ranges) that long-range bombardment is quite possible. Since the Death Star can't really move all that fast compared to a capital ship, I don't see why the REbel ships would automatically have to get closer. (Assuming, of course, that they're "being closer" had any relevance at all.)

Either way, the Imperial navy moved in to engage the Rebels actively and Rebel ships WERE being destroyed. The communication vessel did take out one star cruiser before the Falcon and some fighters took advantaged of its current vulnerability and destroyed it.

.. and got disabled by said cruiser. Clearly, some destruction will be inevitable, since they need full firepower to knock down shields in any reasonably short timeframe before they can attack or damage the ship under them. This doesn't change the blatnat fact that they did NOT obliterate the Rebel fleet with their firepower. Evidently you favor the "Imperials are tactically inept morons" explanation for why that was, given above.

Or perhaps that the WEG Stats are simply flawed since we seem to be basing our arguments off those stats?

Nice strawman. I see you decided to deliberately ignore the fact that I am not relying "only on WEG stats" despite what you claim, to make my point (unless at some point the aforemetnioned sources I magically got reinterpreted to be "WEG stats.")

The main armnament of the ISD requires her captain to orientate his ship such that the turrets can turn to face the incoming warship and fire upon then. We do not quite know the maximum orientation, though if the Venator is to be of guide, it seems that they don't seem to be able to point it forward. If he doesn't he then is at the mercy of the incoming ship which could have placed her heavy turrets near the front and opened fire?

Tilting the ship so the nose dips slightly forward handles the coverage problem for the heavy guns towards the front of the ship (although I can quite easily point out that the Imperials and Rebels WERE stated to be trading broadsides, suggesting that the battle was more than just a "head on" engagement.

I can also point out that according to the ANH novelization, there are "dozens" of heavy weapons emplacements forward-facing on an ISD-1, so it's not as if the heavy TL turrets are the sole-offensive armament available.

Note that we have never been fully educated on how a Mon Cal cruiser is armed.

We don't need to. All we need to know is that Ackbar knows and admits that the Imperials have superior ships, which is already a known fact. Deal with it.

That there is little difference between firing to disable and firing to kill? Note that Rebel star cruisers were being destroyed by the Imperials as I mentioned earlier.

Um, what the fuck are you smoking. You have to physically BLAST a ship to pieces, molten metal, or vapor (or at least penetrate its hull to hit vulnerable internal components like the reactor and the like) to destroy it. Whereas disabling is much simpler (take out weapons, engines, etc.) We know ISDs can do this, we saw it happen in ANH for crying out loud!

So again, care to remind me why you claim that "disabling" and "destroying" are the same thing?

[Wyrm]

@Connor: I'm sorry. I had a major dumbass attack.

[Marko Dash]

Is it possible that while we were not watching the space battle a few ship collided with the Executer, taking down the particle shields and allowing the a-wings and their missiles to get though?

We know that the Ex's shields can take the impact of 3 ISDs without breaching, but some of the MC ships are considerably more massive than an ISD. During the point blank battle it is possible that the Executer took multiple impacts.

[VT-16]

Not very familiar with the ROTJ novelization then, are you?

Been so long since I read it, I only remember snippets. :/

The novel makes it clear that the Imperial ships are tougher and more heavily armed than the Rebel ships.

Must have gotten movie development comments mixed up with the novel. Still, with their enhanced shields, powerwise they should be almost on par with the ISDs, shouldn't they? And since warships can pour all their energy into their weaponry, would that make any difference, one-on-one?

Of course, I'd have thought it would be self evident from Ackbar's "We won't last long against those Star Destroyers" that he considers the Rebels outgunned...

True, but they hadn't had that kind of engagement before (with their entire fleet), so how could he know for certain? And since the novel also described the Rebel fleet stretching out beyond line of sight, they could have had dozens of Home One style ships, for all we know.

[drachefly]

You know, in a battle stretching over thousands of kilometers, 'out of sight' isn't very far.

[VT-16]

Still far enough to hide several dozen +3km Star Cruisers in the background. :P

[Wanderer]

Still far enough to hide several dozen +3km Star Cruisers in the background.

But not from sensors, though from the clutter we see in the viewport its possible that some Mon Cal ships were hidden by those ISDs in front. Of course as usual the chaos of battle keeps us from knowing what is fully going on, darn.

My crackpot theory. At the moment we see before the A-wing crash, Piett has ordered a few ISDs to the front to keep a few Mon Cals from having a clear turbolaser shot at the bridge, and the A-wing and X-wing were taking advantage of the less co-ordinated firepower in that trench they flew through to launch torpedoes at the bridge when what happened happened.

[PayBack]

What's wrong with a pair of Star Cruisers and several Star Destroyer-level vessels being able to pummel the shit out of a Star Dreadnought? Especially since the Rebels were basically in a suicide mission. Either they fail and the DS2 makes it and they eventually get owned, in which case they might as well go out kicking and the Executor is a damn big target, or the fighters manage to take out the DS2, in which case having already weakened the enemy's command vessel will make it that much easier to turn the tide of battle.

In regards to it's escorts, we see one of them get vaped, and it seems clear that the Rebels went all-or-nothing and ignored most of the escorts in exchange for swarming the Executor after Ackbar's order.

What's wrong with 2 cruisers and 5 or 6 Destroyers taking down the shields of a Dreadnought before said Dreadnough[t] and 30 plus destroyers take out the 7 attacking ships?? <snip useless comment>

A Dreadnought and 30+ (if Wookiee-pedia is to be trusted, it was more like 40+ ISDs) Destroyers which were ordered not to fire on the Rebel ships.

Again I ask: what's wrong with 2 Star Cruisers and 5-6 Star Destroyer-level vessels from being able to cause Executor signifigant damage?

I told you in my reply in the part you snipped out. For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

Oh and I've never read the books, but in the movie I'm fair sure they were never ordered not to fire on the rebels. There's a HUGE difference between not attacking, and not shooting back. The officer said "We're not going to attack?" after Piett said to "hold here" not when he said "don't shoot". Hold here means, don't advance.

[Wanderer]

What's wrong with 2 cruisers and 5 or 6 Destroyers taking down the shields of a Dreadnought before said Dreadnough[t] and 30 plus destroyers take out the 7 attacking ships?? <snip useless comment>

A Dreadnought and 30+ (if Wookiee-pedia is to be trusted, it was more like 40+ ISDs) Destroyers which were ordered not to fire on the Rebel ships.

Again I ask: what's wrong with 2 Star Cruisers and 5-6 Star Destroyer-level vessels from being able to cause Executor signifigant damage?

I told you in my reply in the part you snipped out. For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

Oh and I've never read the books, but in the movie I'm fair sure they were never ordered not to fire on the rebels. There's a HUGE difference between not attacking, and not shooting back. The officer said "We're not going to attack?" after Piett said to "hold here" not when he said "don't shoot". Hold here means, don't advance.

Except we don't see the fleets shooting at each other till the Rebels move to engage the Imperials. Promient in my mind is Lando saying,

"Only the fighters are attacking. I wonder what those destroyers are waiting for?"

Compare that to when Lando talks Ackbar into going toe to toe at point blank range, then we see the destroyers shooting and all hell breaks loose.

[Vicious]

I told you in my reply in the part you snipped out. For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

Oh and I've never read the books, but in the movie I'm fair sure they were never ordered not to fire on the rebels. There's a HUGE difference between not attacking, and not shooting back. The officer said "We're not going to attack?" after Piett said to "hold here" not when he said "don't shoot". Hold here means, don't advance.

I snipped it because "wahhh my favorite ship is weak" is a simplistic idiotic argument.

VT-16 pointed out to me that the Impies returned fire when the Rebels came about and I conceeded the point. I haven't watched RotJ in something like 7 years and had forgotten details of the battle.

[VT-16]

For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

To avoid making the Ex look like a pussy, one could postulate that there is a timelapse between Ackbar giving the order to concentrate fire on it and the shield(s) protecting the main bridge going down. Time enough to sneak in 10-12 HO level ships that die in a blaze of glory + dozens of Liberty level destroyers and those fire ship thingies and frigates and corvettes and what have you. 8)

[Wanderer]

For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

To avoid making the Ex look like a pussy, one could postulate that there is a timelapse between Ackbar giving the order to concentrate fire on it and the shield(s) protecting the main bridge going down. Time enough to sneak in 10-12 HO level ships that die in a blaze of glory + dozens of Liberty level destroyers and those fire ship thingies and frigates and corvettes and what have you.

As I said earlier, the chaos of the battle keeps us from seeing everything.

[Wanderer]

Damn clicked submit too early. I want to ask if anyone has the frames of the A-wing attack on the sensor dome and the A-wing and X-wing comming up the trench, to see if we can see any ships we might have missed becuase our eyes were fixed on those fighters.