Best EU ship designs

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-08 11:34am

Knife wrote:
Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:Rather than say what's wanked out and what not, is it possible with the existing tech? Or rather the cost estimates are too low?
Or it tries to fill every role and do it exceptionally well? That's my opinion on the TIE Defender and why I consider it wank.

But I love the Avenger, and of course my all time fav EU craft is the YT2000.

Why is it not possible to perform every role? It's a matter of whether the Empire wants to commit the resources to each craft. A case to point, would be Xizor's Virago. That is a fighter I think any of the Imperial and Rebel fighters will have trouble with.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-08 12:45pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Why is it not possible to perform every role? It's a matter of whether the Empire wants to commit the resources to each craft. A case to point, would be Xizor's Virago. That is a fighter I think any of the Imperial and Rebel fighters will have trouble with.

We know from the PT that size does matter or else the micro fighters wouldn't need a hyperdrive ring. So a tiny fighter that can stuff in hyperdrive and shields and lots of blasters and ion cannons as well as missle launchers, not to even mention still have enough power left over to out accelerate every other fighter out there; streches it a bit, don't you think?

Perhaps I'm biased from the games but; engines, shields, lasers. Pick any two. But along comes the Tie D and it has all, and in a small package. However, as far a resources go, you are right. IIRC the Star Viper was one of a kind and extremely expensive, the Tie D was incredibly expensive as well AFAIK. However, that bit of pathetic excuse doesn't quite mitigate the wank factor.

If you want an interceptor, build an interceptor. If you want a space superiority fighter, build one. If you want an attack craft, go for it. Making a ship that fills all three roles? Come on.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-08 01:06pm

Whoever mentioned the Xg-1 Star Wing: I wholeheartedly agree. That's a great-looking and practical Imperial heavy fighter.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-08 01:51pm

Knife wrote:We know from the PT that size does matter or else the micro fighters wouldn't need a hyperdrive ring. So a tiny fighter that can stuff in hyperdrive and shields and lots of blasters and ion cannons as well as missle launchers, not to even mention still have enough power left over to out accelerate every other fighter out there; streches it a bit, don't you think?

Perhaps I'm biased from the games but; engines, shields, lasers. Pick any two. But along comes the Tie D and it has all, and in a small package. However, as far a resources go, you are right. IIRC the Star Viper was one of a kind and extremely expensive, the Tie D was incredibly expensive as well AFAIK. However, that bit of pathetic excuse doesn't quite mitigate the wank factor.

If you want an interceptor, build an interceptor. If you want a space superiority fighter, build one. If you want an attack craft, go for it. Making a ship that fills all three roles? Come on.

The TIE Defender isn't exactly a small aircraft, considering the pylons and the eyeball had some modifications. Moreover, the solar panels had a larger surface area. They did reduce the speed and shield power for XWA such that even A-wings can destroy it with a couple of assault concussion missles or even an X-wing if the player handles it properly. I would put it to game mechanics for wanking the fighter a little.

I would point out that, though the A-wing is built as an interceptor, it had the maneurverability to be used for Space superiority, just as the TIE Interceptor, though named as an interceptor, performed its space superiorty role adequately (given the circumstances)

I would further point out that the TIE Defender isn't an assault aircraft per se, since it lacks the extensive warhead capacity of the E-wing or the B-wing or the Assault Gunboat. If I recall, it carries at most 2 more torps than the X-wing.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-08 04:43pm

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
The TIE Defender isn't exactly a small aircraft, considering the pylons and the eyeball had some modifications. Moreover, the solar panels had a larger surface area. They did reduce the speed and shield power for XWA such that even A-wings can destroy it with a couple of assault concussion missles or even an X-wing if the player handles it properly. I would put it to game mechanics for wanking the fighter a little.

I don't recall any secondary or extended hulls on the back of the cockpit, so any extra space, as it were, would be represented in the one extra pylon and third solar array/radiator array. That's not significant volume to justify an incredible increase in engine, shield and weapons feeds let alone a hyperdrive.

I would point out that, though the A-wing is built as an interceptor, it had the maneurverability to be used for Space superiority, just as the TIE Interceptor, though named as an interceptor, performed its space superiorty role adequately (given the circumstances)

I would further point out that the TIE Defender isn't an assault aircraft per se, since it lacks the extensive warhead capacity of the E-wing or the B-wing or the Assault Gunboat. If I recall, it carries at most 2 more torps than the X-wing.

Like I said, pick any two. An A-wing is fast and carries a considerable punch from it's concussion missiles, but is fairly fragile and shitty shields. An X-wing is slower but a little more firepower, but it out masses an A-wing considerable. I'd assume the extra engines and powerplants get it up to speed for it's size.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-08 10:53pm

Knife wrote: I don't recall any secondary or extended hulls on the back of the cockpit, so any extra space, as it were, would be represented in the one extra pylon and third solar array/radiator array. That's not significant volume to justify an incredible increase in engine, shield and weapons feeds let alone a hyperdrive.

Isn't the rear section of the TIE-Defender a little larger than the rear section of the TIE Advanced? I would even argue that the TIE Advanced was a little wanked too in TIE Fighter and was reduced in power later in XWA, like giving it less shields and so forth to match almost all the specs of the X-wing with the exception of its speed and maneurverability. Again, it could be game dynamics that contributed to this adjustment of power.

Like I said, pick any two. An A-wing is fast and carries a considerable punch from it's concussion missiles, but is fairly fragile and shitty shields. An X-wing is slower but a little more firepower, but it out masses an A-wing considerable. I'd assume the extra engines and powerplants get it up to speed for it's size.

Agreed. Though I have always wondered why the X-wing had to be mass quite a bit more than the TIE Advanced to achieve that sort of performance. One would note that Vader's TIE Advanced X1 was much much larger than the TIE-Advanced and TIE Defender.

Inuyasha · Post by **Inuyasha** » 2006-07-09 11:29pm

Capital Ships: The Marauder Corvette. They're reasonably tough, well armed, and simply look cool. In the SWvsST Mod for Armada 1, a group of about three was pretty devastating in the earlier tech levels.

Fighters: The Skipray Blastboat. Pretty nice little ship that can both dish out and take a heavy beating.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-07-09 11:55pm

The Defender had a very long rear section, presumably for the shields, reactor, and so forth.

I honestly never saw the problem with Defenders. Aside from being a bit ugly looking and boasting a stupid name, they're perfectly feasible-- they even sport a tremendous amount of radiator area to get rid of the large amount of heat the would likely produce.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-10 12:01am

000, that's not the only depiction of the TIE-D. The cardgame one lacks the rear bit with the slat-pylons, and I recall seeing a line-drawing (from the EGV or something I guess) where there's a much smaller rear section.

Hence my chortling over the wildly inconsistent portrayl.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-07-10 12:10am

Yeah, you're right-- I just looked at the other images in the TC gallery and the EGVV line-drawing has an almost nonexistant rear fuselage.

Well, I'll rephrase to the TIE Defender not being implausible in its original incarnation. And I'll cover my ears (eyes) and pretend the later depictions never existed.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-10 05:26am

nightmare wrote: Never disputed that it has similar firepower, what I was talking about was how they got it: by cutting down on extras rather than improving the technology by a large degree. That's specialization in a nutshell, so we're talking about the same thing.

Actually you kinda do need more than a little miniaturization in some respects (how the hell did they pack in 80% of the ISD-2's powerplant without having the reactor bulge out from the hull?) In fact, I'm almost certain that the Essential Chronology makes mention of the "New Class" designs being the result of application of some sort of large-scale technologies (Hethrir's worldcraft, I think..)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-10 05:47am

Knife wrote: We know from the PT that size does matter or else the micro fighters wouldn't need a hyperdrive ring.

A hyperdrive ring, I might add, that can carry a starship across the galaxy in a matter of hours. From reading the EGV&V (and the new one), the TIE defender hyperdrive was more modest (much shorter range from a base.)

Given that you can compact a fast hyperdrive into a man-portable tube no more than a few meters long (which can IIRC the bounty hunter trilogy correctly, transit from the Rim to the Core, even if it is only one use.. multi-use ones exist as well.) Its not neccesarily going to be a problem, unless you're assuming similar performance to the hyperdrive ring.

So a tiny fighter that can stuff in hyperdrive and shields

If you believe some people the Actis Jedi Spacespeeder carries shields (which I doubt, but there you go.) and that thing is FAR more cramped volume-wise than most TIE-Defender models. The Aetherpsrite is another example (and that one is DEFINITELY shielded!) and there are of course, supposed to be hyperdrive-capable Delta-7s (it just again comes down to performance issues.)

and lots of blasters and ion cannons

Given that some people insist that a TIE interceptor carries upwards of 10 lasers, I don't see a problem with this. IIRC some sources gave the Defender 10 lasers. Hell there are some examples where TIE-Interceptors carried shields and hyperdrive (Wraith Squadron comes to mind.)

as well as missle launchers,

And how big are the warheads, pray tell? Spacetrooper armor can equip micro-proton torpedoes that can threaten starfighters, proton GRENADES can damage starfighters as well. Given the right explosive (IE antimatter or something based on annihilation energies) this is not a problem. Given that the EGV&V seem to imply the TIE Defender is a hyperdrive-capable space superiority platform (they mention taking on fighters and some small transports IIRC) you don't need all that big a warhead (high KT/low megaton.. a missile that could mass at most a few kg. Use a tractor/repulsor propulsion unit and it would be a very simple, short-ranged weapon.)

not to even mention still have enough power left over to out accelerate every other fighter out there; streches it a bit, don't you think?

According to the NEGV&V it's acceleration was only something lik 4200 gees.

I should note of course that I have also seen quite widlely varyind diagrams. One such dispensed with the pylons and had a very ovoid cockpit connected to a thick, triangular structure that the wings were attached to (original EGW&T.) So its also possible there are at least two (or more) varients of TIE DEfender (much as there are two variants of TIE Advanced...)

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-07-10 06:31am

I kind of like the GX1 Short Hauler.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-07-10 01:15pm

000 wrote:http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cg/tie/tied5.gif

The Defender had a very long rear section, presumably for the shields, reactor, and so forth.

I honestly never saw the problem with Defenders. Aside from being a bit ugly looking and boasting a stupid name, they're perfectly feasible-- they even sport a tremendous amount of radiator area to get rid of the large amount of heat the would likely produce.

Half those radiator panels will do exactly dick. The infrared radiation coming off the interior panels will travel in a straight line....right into another radiator panel.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-10 03:27pm

RedImperator wrote:
000 wrote:http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cg/tie/tied5.gif

The Defender had a very long rear section, presumably for the shields, reactor, and so forth.

I honestly never saw the problem with Defenders. Aside from being a bit ugly looking and boasting a stupid name, they're perfectly feasible-- they even sport a tremendous amount of radiator area to get rid of the large amount of heat the would likely produce.
Half those radiator panels will do exactly dick. The infrared radiation coming off the interior panels will travel in a straight line....right into another radiator panel.

Same problem exists for all TIE designs.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2006-07-10 03:28pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: If you believe some people the Actis Jedi Spacespeeder carries shields (which I doubt, but there you go.)

By "some people" you mean the ROTS novel, right?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-10 07:46pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
A hyperdrive ring, I might add, that can carry a starship across the galaxy in a matter of hours. From reading the EGV&V (and the new one), the TIE defender hyperdrive was more modest (much shorter range from a base.)

The engines or generators or whatever they are, on a ring are about the same size as the engines on the Actis or Delta. So it must be more about fuel capacity for a ring than for other small craft with internal HD's.

Given that you can compact a fast hyperdrive into a man-portable tube no more than a few meters long (which can IIRC the bounty hunter trilogy correctly, transit from the Rim to the Core, even if it is only one use.. multi-use ones exist as well.) Its not neccesarily going to be a problem, unless you're assuming similar performance to the hyperdrive ring.

Gah, that sounds horrible and I'm glad I didn't read what ever spawned that idea.

If you believe some people the Actis Jedi Spacespeeder carries shields (which I doubt, but there you go.) and that thing is FAR more cramped volume-wise than most TIE-Defender models. The Aetherpsrite is another example (and that one is DEFINITELY shielded!) and there are of course, supposed to be hyperdrive-capable Delta-7s (it just again comes down to performance issues.)

Actually, I'd assume the volume of both the Actis and the Tie-D are roughly the same.

and lots of blasters and ion cannons

Given that some people insist that a TIE interceptor carries upwards of 10 lasers, I don't see a problem with this. IIRC some sources gave the Defender 10 lasers. Hell there are some examples where TIE-Interceptors carried shields and hyperdrive (Wraith Squadron comes to mind.)

as well as missle launchers,

And how big are the warheads, pray tell? Spacetrooper armor can equip micro-proton torpedoes that can threaten starfighters, proton GRENADES can damage starfighters as well. Given the right explosive (IE antimatter or something based on annihilation energies) this is not a problem. Given that the EGV&V seem to imply the TIE Defender is a hyperdrive-capable space superiority platform (they mention taking on fighters and some small transports IIRC) you don't need all that big a warhead (high KT/low megaton.. a missile that could mass at most a few kg. Use a tractor/repulsor propulsion unit and it would be a very simple, short-ranged weapon.)

not to even mention still have enough power left over to out accelerate every other fighter out there; streches it a bit, don't you think?

According to the NEGV&V it's acceleration was only something lik 4200 gees.

I should note of course that I have also seen quite widlely varyind diagrams. One such dispensed with the pylons and had a very ovoid cockpit connected to a thick, triangular structure that the wings were attached to (original EGW&T.) So its also possible there are at least two (or more) varients of TIE DEfender (much as there are two variants of TIE Advanced...)[/quote]

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-07-11 02:46am

Wouldn't the TIE-Defender be able to accelerate with 6,200Gs if it has 155 MGLT and one MGLT is 400m/s/s?

And what was the linear acceleration of the Delta-7 again? Last time i looked at Wookiepedia it was 5,000Gs, but from the AotC:ICS i seem to remember 10,000Gs.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-07-11 10:54am

Knife wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Given that you can compact a fast hyperdrive into a man-portable tube no more than a few meters long (which can IIRC the bounty hunter trilogy correctly, transit from the Rim to the Core, even if it is only one use.. multi-use ones exist as well.) Its not neccesarily going to be a problem, unless you're assuming similar performance to the hyperdrive ring.
Gah, that sounds horrible and I'm glad I didn't read what ever spawned that idea.

I dunno, I kind of like the idea. It sounds exactly like something pirates or smugglers trying to run from the law would use in desperation.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-07-11 11:24am

Shadowtraveler wrote:
Knife wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Given that you can compact a fast hyperdrive into a man-portable tube no more than a few meters long (which can IIRC the bounty hunter trilogy correctly, transit from the Rim to the Core, even if it is only one use.. multi-use ones exist as well.) Its not neccesarily going to be a problem, unless you're assuming similar performance to the hyperdrive ring.
Gah, that sounds horrible and I'm glad I didn't read what ever spawned that idea.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea. It sounds exactly like something pirates or smugglers trying to run from the law would use in desperation.

Man-portable doesn't man, that a man was using it for transportation. IIRC, it was used to transmit a message or an object. A similar message-drone appeared in TAB.

Shadowtraveler · Post by **Shadowtraveler** » 2006-07-11 12:00pm

Oh...

Doesn't seem as impressive, then...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-12 12:43am

Ender wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: If you believe some people the Actis Jedi Spacespeeder carries shields (which I doubt, but there you go.)
By "some people" you mean the ROTS novel, right?

The only reference in the novel to "shields" for the Jedi Airspeeder is "ablative shields" that apparently are blown off of the wing on bolt impact. Doesn't sound like a deflector shield to me (I'm pretty sure deflector shields don't suffer ablation.)

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-12 12:46am

LoE is pretty explicit on the craft having shields *and* missiles, however.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-12 12:49am

FTeik wrote:
Man-portable doesn't man, that a man was using it for transportation. IIRC, it was used to transmit a message or an object. A similar message-drone appeared in TAB.

Those would probably be something like the hyperspace pods the empire used to deploy probe droids.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-07-12 12:50am

Anguirus wrote:LoE is pretty explicit on the craft having shields *and* missiles, however.

Care to provide a quote?