MMO options

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2006-07-12 02:53pm

I've been playing Guild Wars for nearly a year, and it's a great game. Recently though, I've noticed that the thing I miss most about my old EQ days GW doesn't offer: raiding. Yes, there is GvG, but I'm talking the massive 30-person, 4-hour events that culminated in one dead baddie, 4 or 5 pieces of awesome loot and a major adrenaline rush. I've tried EQ2 for a bit, but it got stale fast and I'm wondering if there is anything that wouldn't be too much of a drain money-wise (I'm not concerned about the per-month cost as I am about keeping up with expansions) yet would allow to get into it and back to what I loved most about EQ?

So, I'm asking all the SDN gamers who might have some insight: what MMOs would you recommend, if any, for raiding/large-group encounters?

DesertFly · Post by **DesertFly** » 2006-07-12 03:02pm

One word: WoW.

Now, it's actually been about a year since I played, and I never got far enough to do raids, but everyone I've talked to and everything I've read said that large groups are done very well in it.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2006-07-12 03:16pm

If you want mass PvP then you need to avoid WoW. My guild tried several big PvP city raids on SW, IF, and the Big Tree. (You can 5-man Cairne.) The server, however, did not like 80 vs Defenders (~30 early, 150+ near the end) combat and crashed every time. Once when we had Fordragon down to around 7%. Then there are the raid BGs, which should really be called "Farms" due to the morons who just go to farm like crazy and not actually fight. The only time those are good is when you set them up days in advance and have both 40-man raids sit around waiting on the queue for hours. *Sigh*

Maybe I expected too much when I got it, but WoW left me very bitter. There was little to no hardcore player content, and the only possible saving grace (PvP) is a joke. No permanant world effects, no city captures, and if you get over 40 vs 40 the server crashes.

However, if all you want to do is PvE or game casually, WoW should fit you well.

xammer99 · Post by **xammer99** » 2006-07-12 03:40pm

I lead a raiding guild on WoW and the raiding in WoW is pretty enjoyable. I also play on a PvE server.

Molten Core: A reasonably well done, and the first 40 person raiding zone, you'll really get to see it a lot. Unfortunately it uses the older specific class armor drops. So after hitting it for awhile you start getting a lot of disenchanted items. But it's a lot of fun and with a reasonably skilled group it can be done in under 3hrs from start to finish. It's well worth it too just to see Ragnaros. He remains the coolest looking mob in the game.

Zul'Guruub: The first 20 person raiding zone. It has a fantastic look and feel to it. Think of rampaging through a jungle city. It's a lot of fun.

Ahn'Qiraj 20: The 2nd 20 person raiding zone. It doesn't do it for me. The encounters are fun, but it's all insects and that doesn't really do it for me.

Blackwing Lair: A TON of fun. This one remains my favorite of the instances. It's the one where they first started getting really creative in their encounters but hadn't ventured TOO far out. It's basically beating the crap outta dragons, dragoneseque things, and the occasional orc. It's very well done and quite creative and some great toys. But it does suffer again from MC's problem of having class specific armor, so if the random numbers aren't with ya, then you DE a lot.

Ahn'Qiraj 40: The 40 person version of AQ. It's a LOG more challenging and yet again bug killing for the most part. It's a VERY challenging place too which keeps it interesting. The only problem is the look of the mobs and such are fairly uninspiring and the loot out of it for 2/3 of the bosses are 'side grades' from BWL stuff, but for more difficult. Then the place is _HUGE_ to the point where they had to add in new 'in zone only' mounts to get around the place on, and even then it can take 10 minutes of just running/riding to get back to where you wiped.

Naxxramus: This is the newest one and I'm still getting a feel for it, but so far it is AWESOME. It's psychotically hard, but the toys are worth it and the encounters are VERY creative.

As far as PvP raids, these are a hell of a lot of fun. We just hit Undercity to kill the boss there, got her to 3% before she tethered and reset to 100%. The key to doing'em is just be smart and plan. If you go charging into the biggest city in prime time without a plan then of course your stupid ass is going to get smashed. If you are smart though, you can do it. We came within a hair of killing Thrall last year and are going to do it next time.

The point again being, plan ahead.

If you are a EQ vet like me, then WoW is similiar but different. There are a few contested "out door" bosses that you occasionally get competition for. But by and large your PvE raiding will be done in instances so there is no competition for it. Makes it a lot more enjoyable than the rat race that EQ was.

Good luck! If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-07-12 03:54pm

WoW raiding either sucks or is decent. Fuck all the gameplay, it's down to whether or not you find a competent guild. I've seen and nearly done it all(I haven't seen the last 6 bosses in the game...seen everything and only haven't defeated 11 bosses) and really if you cannot find a decent guild, PvE is a painful or dead end experience.

As for large scale PvP experience, WoW at first it looks fun and plays well until you see that group come at you tier 2-2.5 gear that will two shot you before you let an arcane shot out.

So enter at your own risk, WoW is fun, the grind of level 1-59 is one of the coolest MMO experiences, but the end game will either drain you or invigorate you, and sadly it's depending on 39 others to usually make it so.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2006-07-12 03:55pm

You looking for PvE huge raids? WoW or normal DAoC servers. If you want PvP huge raids, DAoC (both Classic and Normal).

Edit:
One vid. Shows all races, describes 3 classes per realm and shows a little bit of what RvR is like.
And another. The company that runs the European servers made this video as advertisment.

Rin · Post by **Rin** » 2006-07-12 04:26pm

There should be some world pvp objectives in next patch.

I have only played WoW and GW in World Preview, so don't have much exp on mmos. I do have a good time doing 20-man instances (mostly ZG) with guildmates, and our first tries on 40-man MC was also fun. And agree with Ghost Rider, good guild is important. "Wiping in ZG with good company beats clearing MC in bad."

Hearing raid leader yell like in "50dkp minus" -flash would make me drop that group soon...

--Rin

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2006-07-12 05:48pm

I wouldn't recommend WoW for PvP fun at all, like Ghost Rider said, if you started late there's no way you can catch up to fully geared groups even if you get into a guild that feeds you free equipment. For PvP you're going to have to wait for Age of Conan and Warhammer Online. Too much dependancy on finding 39 people that aren't retarded to actually experience WoW.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2006-07-12 06:05pm

Unless you only play like 2 hours a week, in Dark age of Camelot you can get fully geared, leveled and decently realm ranked (if you do PvP) within 1-3 months. Persistant realm war with capturable castles and outposts that is seperate from the realm homelands which are for PvE. Raids are normally not restricted to guild only, most servers and realms have player run forums where most raid planning and signups go.
If you are waiting for Warhammer or another game coming out next year or so you could do worse than playing DAoC if you are tired of your current game.
Hell, today and tomorrow are my weekends so if you want someone to guide you as you look around, go grab the free trial and PM me.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2006-07-12 11:39pm

If I want to do PvP, I'll stick to GW, since half the game is built around PvP. What I'm finding is that the GW PvE is lacking in the large raid-style encounters that I remember from EQ. Lately, I've been reminded that all I ever did in the last 2-3 months of my time in EQ was raid or prep for raids. It's what I loved the most at that point, and GW lacks that mechanic for me.

WRT PvE and guild-associated stuff: I'm well-aquainted with guild dynamics and am aware of the need for a good guild to gain access to high-end content. Having spent 3 years as an officer in an active guild trying to break into the high-end, I know the difficulty and thrill of doing so.

So it seems like it's either WoW or DAoC for PvE raiding? I've never touched WoW, though I contemplated getting it when it first came out. As for DAoC, my only experience with it comes from playing a friend's secondary account at his house. Thanks for the input everyone. I'm considering getting WoW, though technically I still have an EQ2 account I'm reluctant to pay $150 bucks for the expansions.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2006-07-13 12:01am

I'll have to agree that a good guild is important to getting the most of WoW's end-game content. There was about four months between me hitting level 60 and going into Molten Core for the first time because my guild didn't have enough people for a beer run down the street, much less one of the 40-man raids. I eventually jumped to one that raids regularly, though even they've yet to clear Molten Core.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2006-07-13 12:16am

I hear the expansion promises a few thousand more things to go get and bring back.

While WoW has good raiding it inevitably will still involve going through many thousands of inane quests in order to get a character at all useful for raiding.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2006-07-13 12:21am

Spyder wrote:I hear the expansion promises a few thousand more things to go get and bring back.

While WoW has good raiding it inevitably will still involve going through many thousands of inane quests in order to get a character at all useful for raiding.

I'm used to that, really. I'm a quest-nut. Even after I've done the story-arc in a game, I'll still complete all the quests with any alts I make, because I'm obsessive about them. There's a reason my EQ2 Warlock had more quests done than the next ten people in my guild combined back when I played.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-07-13 12:22am

If you go the WoW route, a few pieces of advice.

1. Play your class, and play it good. If a warrior, tank first, DPS second...etc. High end guilds will take people of lesser equipment, but will force you through hoops.

2. Pick a young server. The older servers are heavily entrenched at the upper levels, some to the point that they almost never accept a recruit unless said recruit is from another high end guild.

3. High end content looks on this level.

Let's say a server has 40 High end guild(ie...40 person raiders) for the Alliance. Horde have usually less because of population and the breakdown is usually worse.

40 of 40 will do Onyxia.

38 of 40 will do Molten Core.

20 of 40 will do Blackwing Lair

10 of 40 will do Ahn'Quiraj

4 of 40 will do Naxx.

They slightly go up but usually not by much. This is because the instances start truly burning people, so when joining an upper end, especially in something as fickle as WoW...keep a track of recruitment by websites. If you see massive turnovers...bail. Low turnovers mean they are happy and are constantly progressing at their pace.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2006-07-13 12:36am

It looks like WoW or EQ/EQ2 are the games for you. DAoC's raids are easymode compared to WoW's endgame.

Edit: Oddly enough, I got an invite to join a dragon raid while I was typing that and I am 48 (level cap is 50) and in random gear.

Vicious · Post by **Vicious** » 2006-07-13 12:57am

Ghost Rider wrote:If you go the WoW route, a few pieces of advice.

1. Play your class, and play it good. If a warrior, tank first, DPS second...etc. High end guilds will take people of lesser equipment, but will force you through hoops.

2. Pick a young server. The older servers are heavily entrenched at the upper levels, some to the point that they almost never accept a recruit unless said recruit is from another high end guild.

3. High end content looks on this level.

Let's say a server has 40 High end guild(ie...40 person raiders) for the Alliance. Horde have usually less because of population and the breakdown is usually worse.

40 of 40 will do Onyxia.

38 of 40 will do Molten Core.

20 of 40 will do Blackwing Lair

10 of 40 will do Ahn'Quiraj

4 of 40 will do Naxx.

They slightly go up but usually not by much. This is because the instances start truly burning people, so when joining an upper end, especially in something as fickle as WoW...keep a track of recruitment by websites. If you see massive turnovers...bail. Low turnovers mean they are happy and are constantly progressing at their pace.

Thanks for the advice. What I think I'll do is check out the free trial and see how I like it. If I do, I may just get it. A bunch of friends at school play WoW, and possibly even some of my old EQ guildies (though I stopped playing nearly 1 1/2 years ago so I don't know if they still play at all.

EDIT:

Stormin wrote:It looks like WoW or EQ/EQ2 are the games for you. DAoC's raids are easymode compared to WoW's endgame.

I have EQ2, though I cancelled my account. My main objection to them is the rapid pace at which they spit out expansions, forcing you to shell out more cash if you want to keep up. That, aside from design changes that made EQ un-fun, was what drove me to quit the original EQ after 5 years of playing.

Stormin · Post by **Stormin** » 2006-07-13 01:10am

DAoC spits out an expansion a year pretty much. Every expansion, though, they have been making the one 2 expansions ago free so to catch up on x-packs all you would have to do is download the free trial, grab catacombs and darkness rising (which can be activated from your account info screen. You save ten bucks getting both at once) and DL the programs you need from the website. Or for probably slightly more you can get everything on one DVD with the Epic Edition.

wautd · Post by **wautd** » 2006-07-13 03:09am

Eve-online. Still kicking ass after more than 3 years, both in gameplay as in graphics. PvP is deep, has consequences and the harsh penalty when you loose can make it very tense. The periods between PvP can be far in between tough (no instant gratification as in WoW but than again, it's not pointless as well).
+ it's with spaceships rather than generic fantasy creatures

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-07-13 05:20am

If you want to get a character up to 60 quick, most people just grind. If you do it right, it may be the fastest way to go, that's contested, but it's definitely the only way to go if you work alone. If, on the other hand, you have higher-level characters to help you, or at least a group of 3 or more levelers, the trick is to take on 'red' quests. That means the quest is available at your level, but is rated for a character several levels higher. You get a lot of experience by doing orange and red quests. You get even more experience by doing red elite or dungeon quests, but those absolutely require at least one high-level escort.

I've always wanted to work with a consistent group, but of the two friends I have who play WoW, neither is on consistently enough to coordinate that sort of thing.

Unfortunately, I have yet to do any raiding, though I finally got my 60 warrior into a raiding guild just recently. I know they do regular Zul'Gurub, but they're currently reorganizing their class leaders, so we won't be doing MC for a few weeks.

I hope this next patch will improve world PvP, but if not, the expansion promises PvP galore.

Oh, and on the matter of warriors, my advice is, be a tank, or go full-dps, don't try to do both. A warrior can equal a rogue with similar equipment, without having to worry about dying quickly to physical damage. Though, that might change with the overall buffing rogues are getting in this upcoming patch. Also, you can tank in PvP, it's just different from PvE.

Rin · Post by **Rin** » 2006-07-13 11:35am

Some more info about next wow patch pvp updates. Capture and hold in EPL & Resource gathering in Sil.

--Rin

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-07-13 12:33pm

Awsome! LOL @ the spice. They're gonna need bigger sandworms.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-07-13 12:46pm

Rin wrote:Some more info about next wow patch pvp updates. Capture and hold in EPL & Resource gathering in Sil.

--Rin

On some servers this will be fun, on others where the line is 20 BWL/AQ40 Alliance farming vs 2 Horde farming...this will make them shake their heads.

White Haven · Post by **White Haven** » 2006-07-13 12:49pm

Honestly? My heart bleeds. If one faction doesn't bother to show up, then they lose. Same as anything else.

Silver Paladin · Post by **Silver Paladin** » 2006-07-13 12:50pm

Alan Bolte wrote:Oh, and on the matter of warriors, my advice is, be a tank, or go full-dps, don't try to do both. A warrior can equal a rogue with similar equipment, without having to worry about dying quickly to physical damage. Though, that might change with the overall buffing rogues are getting in this upcoming patch. Also, you can tank in PvP, it's just different from PvE.

A Fury Warrior can outdamage a rogue if you're geared through the nose. At this point however, you are competing against a Rogue for gear (Maladath, Runed Blade of the Black Flight, Iblis, Blade of the Fallen Seraph, Nightmare Blade, Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker, etc.)

If you're looking to get INTO a raiding guild, I recommend you go 31/15/5 (Arms/Prot/Fury) and realize that you're there to tank rather than DPS, because you're simply ungeared for that role. There are tons of people who want to be DPS Warriors, so not many guilds are looking for those.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-07-13 12:54pm

White Haven wrote:Honestly? My heart bleeds. If one faction doesn't bother to show up, then they lose. Same as anything else.

Sadly...they are appealing to raiders to go in and capture this stuff. I mean a buff in the raid zone? Kickass, day before go in rape all the Hordies with coordination between 3 guilds and drown them in sheer numbers and superior gear.

And I mean what I said...we have maybe 1-2 horde guilds even doing AQ40, and only one doing Naxx. We have at least 15 Alliance doing AQ40 and 4-5 doing Naxx.

If they placed them in Winterspring or such not...it would be looking closer to PVP then "Oh raiders....here's a buff before you go in!"