attn Wookieepedians

[Ender]

see below

[Darth Culator]

This kind of "vote farming" isn't actually allowed. Unless you've actively contributed to Wookieepedia in the past, your vote will probably be removed. This is not unique to this debate, it's one of our few relatively-consistent policies, and it happens to be one I agree with.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I frankly agree with the removal, but I don't care enough to actually vote despite being a member.

[Ender]

This kind of "vote farming" isn't actually allowed. Unless you've actively contributed to Wookieepedia in the past, your vote will probably be removed. This is not unique to this debate, it's one of our few relatively-consistent policies, and it happens to be one I agree with.

Its going on at TFN.

[Phil Skayhan]

One thing on the delete debate page I note that it is brought up to advocate deletion

As she has removed that entry from public view, and it was a clear case of hyperbole in the first place, I'm not sure that's relevant.

I would argue that this would be a reason not to delete the quotes page. The tension between Traviss and fans has been ongoing for at least a year now and shows no sign of abating. The fact that Traviss is attempting to whitewash her history from her own site in order to maintain the illusion of victimization makes the quote page even more vital to those tracing the history of this sad issue.

A person by the name of Lowkey addresses this somewhat:

Its really hard to get more neutral then direct quotes and citations. In fact, really it would be the opposite of neutrality, it would be working to give someone a more positive appearance then they have by covering their tracks for them

Merely because she wishes no one to know what she wrote does not mean that she did not write them.

Also, this is of significance to the history of Star Wars since (to my knowledge) there has never been a schism like this between a Star Wars author and fans. Encyclopedias are supposed to cover such occurrences.

[000]

There hasn't ever been a schism like this, which is why the whole thing is a shame.

It's a damn shame, really. Anyone remember threads like these?

Hard Contact was one of the most well recieved Star Wars books literally ever. Traviss had a tremendous amount of support from fans prior to her reaction to the clone numbers debate and associated things. I highly doubt, had she reacted the way she did, that any of this would have happened-- the numbers would have been complained about, but it wouldn't have overshadowed her other work.

Now... sigh.

[Dominus Atheos]

...

What?

[Jim Raynor]

Can someone briefly tell me what's going on? The first post only says "see below."

[Vympel]

My powers of deduction tell me that someone (I wonder who ...) is trying to have Traviss' death threat quotes deleted, in a fit of historical revisionism. I don't contribute to Wookiepedia though, so I can't vote.

[Noble Ire]

There hasn't ever been a schism like this, which is why the whole thing is a shame.

It's a damn shame, really. Anyone remember threads like these?

Hard Contact was one of the most well recieved Star Wars books literally ever. Traviss had a tremendous amount of support from fans prior to her reaction to the clone numbers debate and associated things. I highly doubt, had she reacted the way she did, that any of this would have happened-- the numbers would have been complained about, but it wouldn't have overshadowed her other work.

Now... sigh.

You are quite correct. Hard Contact was one of my favorite EU novels, and indeed it elevated the EU as a whole enough for me to get me through the slowest parts of the NJO. As can be seen in the threads above, I was quite eager to buy the sequel. And in fact, I did just that, a few days before this whole thing broke. It now sits on my shelf unread, because I can't read anything she had written anymore without thinking about the author and what she has done to the universe and its fandom, or at least this part of it (and of course, the self-pollution of her work is a factor as well, as seen clearly in ODDS).

Now, I suspect I will never buy a book by her again. I won't invest in any of the post NJO novel series. I won't renew my Insider subscription. I won't renew my Hyperspace membership. Certainly, she is not the sole factor; lessening quality overall and Dark Moose's solo asshattery can be blamed as well, but she has been a very major factor. And to think, all this because she made a simple mistake and because of her own ego refused to fix it.

[DesertFly]

There, I've weighed in on this travisty, though you may not like exactly what I have to say. Although I agree that the actions of Ms. Traviss are deplorable, I don't think it's Wookieepedia's place to try to build a case against her.

[Sonnenburg]

I don't think it's so much building a case against her as it is revealing how one can expect to interact with this author. If someone comments repeatedly that their critics are subject to her own violent fantasies and will be incorporated into the Star Wars universe as a swear word, then I think that's something people would want to know about, much the same way I'd want to be warned not to approach the guy who lives under the bridge and throws sticks at traffic.

These quotes are nothing new, they're now just put into a more public venue. They've been employed many times, so that it is pretty much guaranteed that they've gotten back to her. If I had written such comments in jest and they were now being employed, my reaction would be:
"I just wanted to speak up about this. When I made those comments, I was just trying for a little hyperbole, a little fun, a little friendly verbal sparring. Obviously that didn't get across. I apologize; I certainly didn't mean to literally threaten anyone, and I am sorry that was how it was received. I removed those remarks, even though I suppose the damage has been done. I would appreciate it if we could just forget the whole thing happened and just get back to talking about Star Wars."

But that's not happening; Traviss wants to play the victim, and admitting to being culpable is counter to that. If we do see an apology, I guarantee, guarantee, that it will still shift blame against herself and towards her critics, e.g. "they drove me to this."

[Phil Skayhan]

There is a compromise on the delete page to remove all non SW related quotes. However, the controversy would be documented on her main wookiepedia page. This is a great offer.

What is needed is a time line of the events going from the announcement of Traviss and Kaufmann writing the Guide to the Grand Army to the present. Perhaps in a format like this

• Date: 2006-04-13 00:53:00
  Event: KT degrades and possibly threatens critical fans
  
  Significance: This was a ratcheting up of the rhetoric and may also have led to fans who otherwise did not have an interest in the clone numbers debate to sit up and take umbrage with Ms. Traviss's statements and perceived attitude.
  
  Quotes: The name Talifan might be more apt than I ever thought, and rc_ghost's splendid phrase internet madrasas equally revealing...
  (*Except the clones have sex lives. Chicks dig armour. )
  
  Links: 1. KT LJ:Nuts or...there but for the grace of God? (Google Cache) 2.(MSN Cache)

I specifically used this example because one part of the time line should document her attempt to erase her statements that reflect poorly on her. Instances such as these may require multiple search engine caches.

Two difficult things that need to be tackled:

1) Troll (I think there was at least one) comments against Traviss from the TF.net threads that were deleted. A quote from a mod stating the date and what the general gist of the offensive comment was might be useful. Attempting to include instances that are "not in our favor" should not detract from the point that Traviss overreacted and blew one or two troll's behavior out of proportion in terms of fandom.

2) Talifan by Wayne Poe. I would quote Stradley from the Darkhorse boards and counter it with a more polished version of what I wrote here. This video is certain to be the lightning rod for Traviss supporters. It is important to acknowledge and get ahead of this.

Thoughts?

[Sonnenburg]

Where does destroyed evidence fit into this? It sounds like some are saying that if evidence is in certain places or has been purged that it not be allowed. Given the Orwellian approach to this [edit: meaning the topic, not to Wookieepedia's policy], we essentially reward someone for removing damning remarks and then pretending they never happened.

[Surlethe]

One thing to be careful of: google cache eventually gets wiped (I don't know how long it takes for that to happen, but I know of at least one link that is dead because the cache is gone), so if this is going to be up long-term, you ought to find some way to take that into account.

[Phil Skayhan]

I've saved the cache files I could find and uploaded them to my site. Unable to locate a cache of the trachea quote yet.

[Lord Poe]

There is a compromise on the delete page to remove all non SW related quotes. However, the controversy would be documented on her main wookiepedia page. This is a great offer.

Excellent, and appropriate.

What is needed is a time line of the events going from the announcement of Traviss and Kaufmann writing the Guide to the Grand Army to the present. Perhaps in a format like this

• Date: 2006-04-13 00:53:00
  Event: KT degrades and possibly threatens critical fans
  
  Significance: This was a ratcheting up of the rhetoric and may also have led to fans who otherwise did not have an interest in the clone numbers debate to sit up and take umbrage with Ms. Traviss's statements and perceived attitude.
  
  Quotes: The name Talifan might be more apt than I ever thought, and rc_ghost's splendid phrase internet madrasas equally revealing...
  (*Except the clones have sex lives. Chicks dig armour. )
  
  Links: 1. KT LJ:Nuts or...there but for the grace of God? (Google Cache) 2.(MSN Cache)

I specifically used this example because one part of the time line should document her attempt to erase her statements that reflect poorly on her. Instances such as these may require multiple search engine caches.

Interesting. Add this to that timeline:

I created and uploaded the original "Talifan!" on April 14th. The special edition was created and uploaded on June 3rd.

EDIT: The Karen Traviss Database will be down until further notice. It deserves a more comprehensive update than I currently have time for. But it IS in the works.

[Lord Poe]

Nov 29, 2004: I posted a thread (now offline) about helping Ms. Traviss out when she began posting on TFN, and McEwok was nudging around with his usual crap.

+http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b ... 6955799/p3

Sep 27, 2005:

+http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b ... 19/p9/?214 where Traviss stopped posting, after Master of Ossus pretty much cleaned house. WITHOUT attacking her, BTW

Oct.12, 2005: first instance of Traviss blogging about leaving TFN, and fanning the flames of the debate:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 1879762/p8

She began the argument by posting her views over there, which she knew or she should have known would draw a response. She deliberately posted over there, as opposed to over here where people would not get banned for discussing it with her civilly. That's my main bone of contention with her: she deliberately brought the battle to a place where she could easily hide behind heavy-handed mods and admins.

She can then argue that she didn't have anything to do with the bannings (and I'm not accusing her of putting together a digital "hit-list" and then sending it to the mods and admins over there), but she did bring the fight to a place where she knew that bannings would be inevitable if people tried to argue with her. It was also EXTREMELY disingenuous not to simply call out the people she was responding to, so she could hide behind the whole, "Who? Oh, you! I didn't know you cared!" routine.

Oct. 16, 2005: fandawhorians began blaming "Saxtonites" for Traviss leaving:

+http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp? ... t=21973694

After being challenged to do so, no one came up with a single example of someone flaming Traviss or Kauffman. Absolutely zero indication that alleged threatening phantom "PMs" were sent, either.

BTW, this Traviss blog has been erased, too:

+http://blogs.starwars.com/karentraviss/28/comments

Angels, pinheads and inquisitions
I'm a bit tired of words today, so I thought I'd try an equation. It's about light and heat.
eW= ty x L /k
Where: eW = energy available (in watts)
ty = kilocalories spent in angry typing
k = opportunities wasted to do something useful in real life
L = length of the Super Star Destroyer x by systolic pressure
I substituted a few numbers in that, and boy, there was a lot of wasted heat and not much light generated. I thought about getting a heat exchanger fitted, but then I tried something different.
sb = eW x r /ty
Where: sb = social benefit to real people
eW = energy available
ty = kilocalories spent typing angry responses
r = real issues requiring action

You can see that if you reduce ty, then sb increases.

There are thousands of people in the world who would love to have no greater source of unhappiness in their lives than arguments about SSDs, GAR strengths and whether Han fired first - because they're being blown up by IEDs, or bombed, or starved, or being driven out of their homes by disasters and wars and any number of bad, real things. If the most upsetting thing that happened to them in their lives was arguing about Mara Jade's hair, they'd rejoice.

Passion about fiction is great when it's fun and lighthearted, or when it provides respite or sheds light on real issues. But save your anger about it - on both sides of the argument - and channel it into improving real lives. Visit a vets' home. Send our troops books. If the military isn't your bag, then raise money for famine relief or help an animal shelter. But whatever you do, remember what's real and get het up about that.

Last time people started fighting about how many angels could dance on a pinhead, folks got burned at the stake by the Inquisition. Those really weren't the good old days, believe me.

Or as Niner might say; save the fight for the enemy.

[Mange]

Hmm, it's the mysterious blog disappearance phenomena again... Seriously, it would be good if an apology was to follow this.

[CmdrWilkens]

Funniest thing about that blog entry (the deleted one): I can think of a half dozen people off the top of my head, myself included, who actually HAVE had IEDs and crap going off around them and you know what...I concerned myself with these issues then and now.

[Sonnenburg]

"But save your anger about it - on both sides of the argument - and channel it into improving real lives."

I would really like to know how exactly taking the anger she has towards her critics and channeling it into creating a language of swear words improves real lives. Anyone?

[Lord Poe]

Hey guys, can we use this on the Traviss article?

[Phil Skayhan]

I sent this in response to a SW Blog by "Pantless Wookie" who asked for the background on this. He is also active on Wookiepedia. This was me trying to be as neutral as possible.

I'm emailing you because I don't want to fill up your comment section. I'll try to make this as brief as possible. However, to my mind, what makes this "schism" unique is not that two segments of fandom are at odds. Rather, that an author is an active participant in the flamewar. This history is by no means complete and focuses primarily on Traviss's statements.

September 2005
"And so it begins..."

TheForce.net Literature Forum: Guide to the Grand Army of the Republic
link
(this is the last page where Karen Traviss participates)

• Board members begin questioning the veracity of 3 million(+) clones. Traviss and Kaufmann attempt to answer these questions but their answers (save one by Kaufmann stating that the number "does not represent the entire fighting force") are not found satisfying to those who find the number too small.
  
  After the authors departure from the thread, the debate continues and becomes somewhat heated as these discussions do (SSD length), but that is part of the normal canon debate process; strongly held opinions will be strongly defended. However there was no flaming of Traviss or Kaufmann in that thread.

October 2005
"The Fuse is Lit"

Karen Traviss on SW.com (Oct 1 - 2)
Special Forces
Why Maths is a Slippery Slope in the GFFA

• Ms. Traviss continues her defense of the 3 million clone numbers. In the first link above is the first known claim by Traviss that she is being flamed somewhat over this

.
Karen Traviss on LiveJournal (Oct 2)
Worst.Episode.Ever

• Traviss's first use of the term "Talifan" to describe her critics. She thanks Dark Moose for "riding to my rescue in the Talifan Wars". This is likely a reference to threads and member blogs on SW.com discussing the clone number issue that were heavily moderated.

Karen Traviss on SW.com (Oct 6)
Angels Pinheads and Inquisitions

• This post is where it all really began to go to hell. "Techies/Fleet Junkies/Saxtonites" felt that they were being insulted by Ms. Traviss on the way they choose to enjoy their hobby and on their personal lives (unable to distinguish between fiction and reality). If this post was an attempt to calm both sides of the debate it failed utterly for, right or wrong, it is from this point on that clone discussions on various Star Wars related webboard become more heated and more focused on Karen Traviss herself.

TheForce.net Literature Forum Making the Boards Safe for Ms. Traviss's Return (Oct 15)

• Saxtonites are accused of driving/keeping Karen Traviss off the boards with rude and insulting behavior. While repetitively challenged to present evidence of anyone flaming either Traviss or Kaufmann on TFN, none is found or presented.

April 2006
"Using Gasoline to Put Out a Fire"

Star Wars Insider #87: Odds by Karen Traviss

• A retconn that is intended to lower the canon number of driod soldiers which had previously been quantified as quadrillion or quintillion (Lord of War, RotS:ITW). While accepting its place in official hierarchy, critics (same people as those who railed against the 3 million) claimed that this went against prior EU sources and is over-ruled by the droid factory scene in AotC. More importantly, they claimed this was a poor attempt by Traviss to explain how the three million clones were enough to fight the Clone Wars which was now considered a "brush fire" and not a major conflict. Basically, this opened up a new front in the flamewar.

GalacticSenate.com Forums:
Republic Commando Sequel: Triple Zero (April 10)(currently down)
(Google Cache)

• In a discussion of numbers (again), (an exasperated?) Karen Traviss twice accuses her critics of sexism: "Every argument I see that I - and Ryan, too - but it's obviously more rewarding to attack a woman)" and "This final comment isn't directed at you, but is a general observation about the tone of the attacks on me since last September: they are highly emotional and gynophobic." Her detractors see this as another unfounded attack on their persons. Traviss also states her distaste of the TFN forums.

Karen Traviss on LiveJournal (April 13)
Nuts... or there but for the grace of God

• What little chance of peace that existed between Traviss and her critics vanished with the appearance of this post. This is the source of the now infamous quote "My gut reaction is that they all need garroting, but my rational self finds it all... fascinating." It also had the effect of drawing in people (like myself) that previously had no interest in the clone number debates but found Traviss's statements bewildering and distressing.

Wayne Poe: The Karen Traviss Database (April 14) Talifan!
*You know where to find this one*
(Note: the linked page was not written until May; the video is at the bottom of the page. The page also contains further history of the flamewar from Poe's perspective.)

• Created in response to Karen Traviss recent blog post, Talifan! is a film intended to satirize (albeit lacking any subtlety) the whole Traviss affair. However, Traviss and her supporters saw it as a violent "revenge fantasy" and point to it as an example of what a Talifan is and the extreme lengths they go to.

May 2006
"Spreading the Love"

++http://www.youaredumb.net/forum/message ... ch_string= (May 5)
++http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writer ... t-17816581 (May 26, 2005)

• Examples of Karen Traviss visiting other non-SW sites to raise awareness of the Talifan. In the second link this involved resurrecting a year old post.

June/July 2006
"18.5 Missing Minutes"

• Traviss deletes blog posts on both LiveJournal and SW.com that reference the clone numbers or Talifan.

These, to the best of my knowledge, are the major events in this fracas. Since Traviss never directly quoted any instances of sexism, libelling, or threats, I could not document them. Talifan! might be seen as the exception, but I could argue its designation as satire and point out what and how it is parodying if needs be.

I am not neutral and I doubt if my time-line would be seen as such. But I am also not trying to sway you. I hope that you do remain neutral and gather more information on this so that an accurate history can be added (if deemed appropriate) to Wookiepedia. Because, as you said, there has been nothing like this before in Star Wars.
Not even when Greedo shot first.

Thank you,
Phil Skayhan

EDIT: Spelling

[Vympel]

Quick note, it's RotS:ICS, not RotS:ITW in relation to droid numbers.

[Phil Skayhan]

Fuck! I already sent it. ITW was for the clone production numbers on Kamino, right? I got them mixed up obviously.