[outcast] I am above the rules

[outcast]

Amazing that people actually think schools have the right to do things like this. The school only has such power when it comes to school *property*. If the cellphones were handed out to students by the school, then yes, they would have that right. They didn't and don't however. The argument that if they bring it onto school grounds, that the school automatically gains the right to do with it as it pleases is a bogus one. As ridiculous as the school confiscating student's clothes. If you don't think the government gets to go through your private affairs as an adult, you shouldn't think schools could do it if you're not an adult. It's the same thing and you don't suddenly magically get more rights when you turn 18.

As long as the cellphones are off and can thus not disrupt regular school affairs, the school has no right whatsoever to confiscate it, and even less so to search it's records. (ofcourse, that's what encryption is for)

Quite frankly, i'm shocked to find there's as many people as there are who don't condemn this kind of fascist nonsense.

[Darth Wong]

Amazing that people actually think schools have the right to do things like this. The school only has such power when it comes to school *property*. If the cellphones were handed out to students by the school, then yes, they would have that right. They didn't and don't however. The argument that if they bring it onto school grounds, that the school automatically gains the right to do with it as it pleases is a bogus one. As ridiculous as the school confiscating student's clothes. If you don't think the government gets to go through your private affairs as an adult, you shouldn't think schools could do it if you're not an adult. It's the same thing and you don't suddenly magically get more rights when you turn 18.

As long as the cellphones are off and can thus not disrupt regular school affairs, the school has no right whatsoever to confiscate it, and even less so to search it's records. (ofcourse, that's what encryption is for)

Quite frankly, i'm shocked to find there's as many people as there are who don't condemn this kind of fascist nonsense.

Read the thread, fool. This exact argument was addressed repeatedly. We have RULES stating that you're supposed to read threads before commenting.

[outcast]

There is no need for insults, that just shows a generally unuseful attitude that certainly doesn't dissuade me from my position. My position stands as valid, i'm just glad that in my country, kids don't have to go through this kind of shit.

[Surlethe]

There is no need for insults, that just shows a generally unuseful attitude that certainly doesn't dissuade me from my position. My position stands as valid, i'm just glad that in my country, kids don't have to go through this kind of shit.

Your position does not stand as valid, since you have apparently failed to read the last four pages, wherein your claim that the school doesn't have the right to confiscate cell phones is thoroughly deconstructed.

[outcast]

Confiscate yes, search internal records, no. That has not been deconstructed and that is the entire point here. No school has the ethical right to do that. If schools in your location have the *legal* right to do it, then i'd say there's something seriously wrong with your legal system.

My point stands as valid.

[Darth Wong]

There is no need for insults, that just shows a generally unuseful attitude that certainly doesn't dissuade me from my position. My position stands as valid, i'm just glad that in my country, kids don't have to go through this kind of shit.

No, an "unuseful" attitude is not bothering to read the thread before commenting on it, asshole. We have rules in place for precisely that reason. And stating that your position is valid without addressing all of the voluminous rebuttals to precisely that position is what we call a "Wall of Ignorance" around here.

[Darth Wong]

Confiscate yes, search internal records, no. That has not been deconstructed and that is the entire point here. No school has the ethical right to do that. If schools in your location have the *legal* right to do it, then i'd say there's something seriously wrong with your legal system.

"If"? So you're conceding that you didn't bother reading the thread before commenting on it?

My point stands as valid.

This grows tiresome. You're simply declaring a priori that you're right.

[Surlethe]

Confiscate yes, search internal records, no.

For the record, this is a backpeddle from your previous position.

That has not been deconstructed and that is the entire point here. No school has the ethical right to do that. If schools in your location have the *legal* right to do it, then i'd say there's something seriously wrong with your legal system.

My point stands as valid.

Your newest point is a red herring, because we're discussing whether or not the schools are legally permitted to confiscate and search cell phone records. It also begs the question, why shouldn't schools, which have authority in loco parentis, be ethically permitted to search materials students bring onto their premises?

[outcast]

"If"? So you're conceding that you didn't bother reading the thread before commenting on it?

So because i don't agree with your conclusions i automatically didn't read them? Somewhat arrogant don't you think?

[Zero]

Confiscate yes, search internal records, no. That has not been deconstructed and that is the entire point here. No school has the ethical right to do that. If schools in your location have the *legal* right to do it, then i'd say there's something seriously wrong with your legal system.

My point stands as valid.

Outcast, schools do have the rights and authority to do as they feel is necessary to protect the student body. In this case, the school feels that it is necessary to sieze cell phones and check records to attempt to halt the proliferation and use of drugs, something which they obviously consider to be a clear and present danger to the student body.

Think of it this way: if a student brings a gun onto school property, the school is obligated to take it from him. When the school has to protect the student body, its rights expand beyond what's generally considered okay outside of school, because the school has, as Surlethe explained, in loco parentis rights and duties, meaning that it is to take the place of parents while students are in school.

[outcast]

For the record, this is a backpeddle from your previous position.

Ridiculous, i never claimed anything else, it is simply you who misinterpreted and can now believe i'm backpeddling, reinforcing your own side (in your mind atleast).

Your newest point is a red herring, because we're discussing whether or not the schools are legally permitted to confiscate and search cell phone records.

Which i contend they do not. Although i admit to some ignorance of the U.S legal system, i cannot conceive that any democratic legal system would allow such a thing.

It also begs the question, why shouldn't schools, which have authority in loco parentis, be ethically permitted to search materials students bring onto their premises?

Unless the actual parents give permission to the schools to search private materials of their children, the schools do not have the right. Even if parents do give that permission, it's highly questionable. Were these 10 year olds, certainly. But we're talking about near adults here. (spare me the subjective nonsense about maturity) Everybody is entitled to privacy. You allow schools to confiscate cell phones, you install metal detectors and institute other similar practices, and you turn every kid into a suspect.

Perhaps it's having been brought up in a more civilized society where stuff like this is considered blatant fascism. Perhaps it's the realization that you've gone one hell of a slippery slope going there. Either way, we treat our children with more dignity than that, and *we* don't need metal detectors in our schools. *we* don't need random locker searches to deal with the drug problem. Obviously such invasive authoritarian methods to deal with these problems aren't working.

And someone else brought this up on another forum regarding this very same issue. If you teach kids that they don't have the right to privacy, that it's normal for the authoritive figures to randomly come and take their personal belongings on some vague suspcisions....what makes you think that they'll start caring when they grow up, and the government starts doing it to them when they're 40?

[Surlethe]

Ridiculous, i never claimed anything else, it is simply you who misinterpreted and can now believe i'm backpeddling, reinforcing your own side (in your mind atleast).

Then what the fuck am I supposed to understand when you say. ‘As long as the cellphones are off and can thus not disrupt regular school affairs, the school has no right whatsoever to confiscate it, and even less so to search it's records. (ofcourse, that's what encryption is for)"

Which i contend they do not. Although i admit to some ignorance of the U.S legal system, i cannot conceive that any democratic legal system would allow such a thing.

Your lack of imagination is not sufficient to declare a law illegal or unethical.

Unless the actual parents give permission to the schools to search private materials of their children, the schools do not have the right.

What kind of circular bullshit is this? Schools possess authority in loco parentis: they have all the authority over the students parents do. This means they already implicitly have the parents' permission to search.

Even if parents do give that permission, it's highly questionable. Were these 10 year olds, certainly. But we're talking about near adults here. (spare me the subjective nonsense about maturity) Everybody is entitled to privacy. You allow schools to confiscate cell phones, you install metal detectors and institute other similar practices, and you turn every kid into a suspect.

Spare you the subjective nonsense about maturity? What the fuck kind of argument is that? Oh, yes -- poisoning the well. Unfortunately, "near adult" is not the same thing as "adult", and anyone who's ever compared high school kids' and adults' behavior is well aware that high school students are neither as emotionally nor as mentally mature as adults.

I'd also like to see the justification for your assertion that the schools "turn every kid into a suspect" by exercising authority.

Perhaps it's having been brought up in a more civilized society where stuff like this is considered blatant fascism. Perhaps it's the realization that you've gone one hell of a slippery slope going there. Either way, we treat our children with more dignity than that, and *we* don't need metal detectors in our schools. *we* don't need random locker searches to deal with the drug problem. Obviously such invasive authoritarian methods to deal with these problems aren't working.

Another load of question-begging bullshit. Tell me, does it taste funny coming out of your mouth, or are you used to it? I'd certainly love to see your evidence that your characterization is necessary, your evidence that they don't work, and your argument to demonstrate that this is relevant at all to the point in contention.

And someone else brought this up on another forum regarding this very same issue. If you teach kids that they don't have the right to privacy, that it's normal for the authoritive figures to randomly come and take their personal belongings on some vague suspcisions....what makes you think that they'll start caring when they grow up, and the government starts doing it to them when they're 40?

And you're accusing me of slippery slopes?! Bwahahahah!

[Darth Wong]

"If"? So you're conceding that you didn't bother reading the thread before commenting on it?

So because i don't agree with your conclusions i automatically didn't read them? Somewhat arrogant don't you think?

Other people made the detailed legal arguments, not me. If you had already read the thread, you would have known that. You're just demonstrating now that you're not even reading the posts you're supposedly answering, never mind the whole thread. Once more, we have rules against this kind of shit. I will only quote that rule so many times.

[outcast]

I can see you're not open to reason. Very well. I certainly have no inclination to try and get a bit of logic shining through that thick skull of yours.

[Lord Poe]

Amazing that people actually think schools have the right to do things like this. The school only has such power when it comes to school *property*. If the cellphones were handed out to students by the school, then yes, they would have that right. They didn't and don't however. The argument that if they bring it onto school grounds, that the school automatically gains the right to do with it as it pleases is a bogus one. As ridiculous as the school confiscating student's clothes.

=Sigh= Fuckin' kids nowadays...

Waaay back in the late 70s-early 80's when I was in school, my sister was sent to the principal's office for wearing a cannibas T-shirt on school grounds. She sat there, with the shirt turned inside-out until my mother brought a proper shirt to school for her to wear.

Hand held video games were confiscated. Comic books were confiscated. Drawings were confiscated, torn up, and thrown away. A shiny piece of metal used to reflect the sun into the eyes of the classroom nerd was confiscated.

If you don't want it taken away, don't bring it to fuckin' school. We can all play the smartass about cell phones and conveniently ignore the fact that you can do more than receive that important emergency call from home on them.

People need to grow the fuck up. And ironically, one used to learn that at school.

[Darth Wong]

I can see you're not open to reason. Very well. I certainly have no inclination to try and get a bit of logic shining through that thick skull of yours.

No, you will either answer his points or concede. Your trollish behaviour has gone on long enough.

[Surlethe]

I can see you're not open to reason. Very well. I certainly have no inclination to try and get a bit of logic shining through that thick skull of yours.

Why don't you answer my points, you retarded, pissant, dipshit? If you beat me, I concede: that's the way the game works, and I expect you to play by the rules just as much as I do.

[outcast]

I can see you're not open to reason. Very well. I certainly have no inclination to try and get a bit of logic shining through that thick skull of yours.

No, you will either answer his points or concede. Your trollish behaviour has gone on long enough.

I scarcely have the inclination to follow the orders of someone who'se behaviour is more troll-like than mine.

[Lagmonster]

I scarcely have the inclination to follow the orders of someone who'se behaviour is more troll-like than mine.

What the fuck makes people like you think that they're above the house rules? You don't have any right to that aura of superiority you're laying claim to.

[AdmiralKanos]

No, you will either answer his points or concede. Your trollish behaviour has gone on long enough.

I scarcely have the inclination to follow the orders of someone who'se behaviour is more troll-like than mine.

Have it your way.



You've made it painfully obvious that you couldn't bother reading the thread before posting (or even after being told to read the thread), you refused to address points, and then you decided to declare that you are under no obligation to follow our house rules (especially the one about how flaming and swearing are permitted, but repeated logic fallacies and ignoring points are not). Guess what happens when you refuse to follow house rules, dipshit. You get kicked out of the house.

[Dominus Atheos]

Wow, that's Outcast, WrydNyrd, and munky99999 all being banned in the same day.

Today is a good day.

[AdmiralKanos]

Wow, that's Outcast, WrydNyrd, and munky99999 all being banned in the same day.

Today is a good day.

Wyrdnyrd was banned? When did that happen?

[Dominus Atheos]

He asked to be.

I assumed his request would be honored.

[Zero]

WyrdNerd didn't ask to be banned, he just said he was leaving. Good riddance to outcast, though. "Waah, you don't agree with me so you're being irrational! I don't wanna play anymore!"

[AdmiralKanos]

He asked to be.

I assumed his request would be honored.

Oops, I didn't even notice that. OK, it's done.