Admiral Piett and Executor stay in the fight.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-13 06:46pm

Did some screencaps off of the DVD and it produced some interesting sequences:

A-wings attack (notice the small explosions occuring right before the whole globe bursts, also the shots do not correspond to other laser blasts which are always perfect streaks, probably concussion missiles):

http://img473.imageshack.us/img473/5443/awing14xw.jpg

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6151/awing26sn.jpg

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/6151/awing37ql.jpg

Nothing seen in these shots:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/9417/f ... ush7hh.jpg

Finally, a giant bolt is shot from a ship so far away, it's outside visual range:

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1197/l ... hot8qj.jpg

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » 2006-07-13 07:54pm

In that last set of screenshots can you circle where the A-wing is on its approach, I wonder how that officer saw it so far out?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-13 07:57pm

That's the scene after this one. In this, Piett says "Intensify forward firing etc..."

I'll do that tomorrow. :)

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » 2006-07-13 09:37pm

VT-16 wrote:That's the scene after this one. In this, Piett says "Intensify forward firing etc..."

I'll do that tomorrow.

Okay, thanks man

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-07-13 10:01pm

That big turbolaser bolt couldn't have come from the Death Star, could it?

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2006-07-13 11:38pm

Surlethe wrote:That big turbolaser bolt couldn't have come from the Death Star, could it?

Do you mean the red one in the last of VT-16's links? If so, I don't see how it could based on both origin and angle. Also, the colour is that of the weapons found more often on rebel ships.

Speaking of that bolt, if a turbolaser bolt's power is usually related to its size, how powerful is this shot? It's either coming from a tiny ship or it is much larger than any ship in the system bar the Death Star. Could this be an example of a shot powered by something like the Munificent-class's massive capacitors? If so, that could help explain how the rebel ships punched through the shields of the Executor.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-13 11:44pm

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:
Surlethe wrote:That big turbolaser bolt couldn't have come from the Death Star, could it?
Do you mean the red one in the last of VT-16's links? If so, I don't see how it could based on both origin and angle. Also, the colour is that of the weapons found more often on rebel ships.

Speaking of that bolt, if a turbolaser bolt's power is usually related to its size, how powerful is this shot? It's either coming from a tiny ship or it is much larger than any ship in the system bar the Death Star. Could this be an example of a shot powered by something like the Munificent-class's massive capacitors? If so, that could help explain how the rebel ships punched through the shields of the Executor.

We know that the rebels do in fact have some heavy guns on their ships. In one of the scenes shown from the bridge of the Home One, you can see a huge TL shot nail a SD. This 'last' shot seems to overcome the shields and the SD blows up. Whether it's from the Starcruiser level ships (Home One type) or the smaller 'cruisers' is up for grabs since there is atleast one Starcruiser and a couple 'cruisers' on that side of the Executor durring that bit.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-14 12:02am

Here in this pic you can see the SD I mentioned going up, I don't have a still pic of the blast itself, after being tagged by a large bolt simular to the one in VT's shot.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2006-07-14 12:23am

Wanderer wrote:
PayBack wrote:I told you in my reply in the part you snipped out. For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.

Oh and I've never read the books, but in the movie I'm fair sure they were never ordered not to fire on the rebels. There's a HUGE difference between not attacking, and not shooting back. The officer said "We're not going to attack?" after Piett said to "hold here" not when he said "don't shoot". Hold here means, don't advance.
Except we don't see the fleets shooting at each other till the Rebels move to engage the Imperials.

The only problem is that the novelization states:

...the Rebel Star Cruiser Liberty had just been engaged in a furious long-range battle.

Now I simply can't see a cruiser of Liberty's size being engaged in a furious battle with anything other than an Imperial capital ship of some order. Clearly they were already shotting at that point.

Side note for the record the novelization also has one of Ackbar's aides informing him that they had just dropped the forward shield before Ackbar orders an attack on the bridge.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-14 05:10am

Knife wrote:you can see the SD I mentioned going up, I don't have a still pic of the blast itself, after being tagged by a large bolt simular to the one in VT's shot.

Here's something I made a few pages back, hopefully showing most of the progression:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... e5d095.jpg

It's hard to see the first bolt that hits, but it's in the middle frame. Then a second one follows and the ISD is toast:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... c4ccf2.jpg

PayBack · Post by **PayBack** » 2006-07-18 08:56am

VT-16 wrote:
For 2 cruisers and 6 destroyers to take out the Executor, before they themselves are taken you by said Executor AND 40 destroyers, must mean the Executor is a pussy ship and I've never considered it as such.
To avoid making the Ex look like a pussy, one could postulate that there is a timelapse between Ackbar giving the order to concentrate fire on it and the shield(s) protecting the main bridge going down. Time enough to sneak in 10-12 HO level ships that die in a blaze of glory + dozens of Liberty level destroyers and those fire ship thingies and frigates and corvettes and what have you.

I'd be willing to concede such a possibility

Or perhaps the DS gunners missed with the rebel ships going point blank, and accidentally hit the Ex.

Crap I've been away 5 days? I hope this isn't considered a necro.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-18 09:12am

I don't think it's that old yet. Adding to the discussion, what about the larger Rebel ships from Rebellion? The Bulwark and Dauntless etc.? They were part of the Rebel fleet at this time, and Bulwarks were used as command ships. Were they at Endor or on patrols elsewhere?*

*Yes, I know the novelization said the entire Rebel fleet was present, which doesn't make any sense, since much of it was used to guard important systems like Mon Calamari throughout much of the war. I doubt nearby Imperial fleets would let that sector walk free, if they discovered its protective fleet was suddenly missing.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-18 01:12pm

Yes, I know the novelization said the entire Rebel fleet was present, which doesn't make any sense, since much of it was used to guard important systems like Mon Calamari throughout much of the war. I doubt nearby Imperial fleets would let that sector walk free, if they discovered its protective fleet was suddenly missing.

Really, though, it does make sense. Before Endor, the Mon Calamari had been on the Imperial "Too-Kill" list, but if the Rebellion lost at Endor and the Emperor saw that Mon Cal ships played a major role, he would move to annihilate the system immediately; a few more defensive warships, even if they were Bulwarks and the like, would have made little difference. Better to throw everything they had to together to increase the chance that the attack would work.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-07-22 11:41pm

As to the Bulwarks if they weren't at Endor they could have been leading Imperial Task Forces on chases in the outer-rim ensuring that the Rebel Fleet at Endor wouldn't have thousnads of Imperial ships facing them.
It seems to me that the Imperial ships were firing on the Rebel ships attempting to drive them toward the DSII however unlike the Rebels they were spreading their fire among several different ships so the Rebels by concentrating their fire on the Executor were able to overwelm her. Also, Pietts focus fire command could have been to focus fire and destroy the cruisers in front before they could do anymore harm afterall I doubt a few cruisers could withstand the concentrated fire of the Executor. Essentially, Endor could be a demonstration of what happens when one force employs the N-squared law and the other doesn't.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2006-07-23 01:43am

NRS Guardian wrote:As to the Bulwarks if they weren't at Endor they could have been leading Imperial Task Forces on chases in the outer-rim ensuring that the Rebel Fleet at Endor wouldn't have thousnads of Imperial ships facing them.
It seems to me that the Imperial ships were firing on the Rebel ships attempting to drive them toward the DSII however unlike the Rebels they were spreading their fire among several different ships so the Rebels by concentrating their fire on the Executor were able to overwelm her. Also, Pietts focus fire command could have been to focus fire and destroy the cruisers in front before they could do anymore harm afterall I doubt a few cruisers could withstand the concentrated fire of the Executor. Essentially, Endor could be a demonstration of what happens when one force employs the N-squared law and the other doesn't.

ROTJ novelisation is higher canon, and claims that almost the entire Rebel Alliance was at Endor.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-23 05:01am

But, according to the OS Databank on the Rebel Alliance:

While history has recorded much of the activities of the core group of Rebels attached the Alliance High Command, the efforts of the many sector groups scattered throughout the galaxy should not go forgotten. These groups, the Sector Forces, proceeded with feint attacks, spreading the Emperor's forces thin, and giving the heart of the Alliance time to regroup and develop its final thrust against Palpatine.

So, either way, it can't have been the entire Alliance. And I still fail to see the logic in having the entire Mon Calamari Navy on this mission, leaving Mon Cal open to attack. Unless that defensive fleet isn't considered as part of the Alliance.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-07-23 09:22am

Noble Ire wrote:
Yes, I know the novelization said the entire Rebel fleet was present, which doesn't make any sense, since much of it was used to guard important systems like Mon Calamari throughout much of the war. I doubt nearby Imperial fleets would let that sector walk free, if they discovered its protective fleet was suddenly missing.
Really, though, it does make sense. Before Endor, the Mon Calamari had been on the Imperial "Too-Kill" list, but if the Rebellion lost at Endor and the Emperor saw that Mon Cal ships played a major role, he would move to annihilate the system immediately; a few more defensive warships, even if they were Bulwarks and the like, would have made little difference. Better to throw everything they had to together to increase the chance that the attack would work.

One might note that when Palpatine was reborn in Dark Empire, one of his targets was Dac. We don't know exactly how much damage the WD attack made, but no new Mon Cal designs show up in canon until several years later during the Vong invasion.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-07-23 11:59am

VT-16 wrote:But, according to the OS Databank on the Rebel Alliance:
While history has recorded much of the activities of the core group of Rebels attached the Alliance High Command, the efforts of the many sector groups scattered throughout the galaxy should not go forgotten. These groups, the Sector Forces, proceeded with feint attacks, spreading the Emperor's forces thin, and giving the heart of the Alliance time to regroup and develop its final thrust against Palpatine.
So, either way, it can't have been the entire Alliance. And I still fail to see the logic in having the entire Mon Calamari Navy on this mission, leaving Mon Cal open to attack. Unless that defensive fleet isn't considered as part of the Alliance.

Again, leaving a defensive force of any signficance at Mon Calamari while the attack was underway would only weaken the strike, and if the strike failed, the planet would fall even if they had a force of a thousand captial ships.

Besides, the databank isn't really canon, it's just simplified information gleaned from actual sources and Pablo Hidalgo's fan-wanking. Now, if he actually cited the articles, then we might have something, but otherwise, even if the bulk of the fleet had been deployed across the galaxy, they could get back to Mon Calamari with only a few weeks even traveling off the beaten path, due to the speed of hyperdrive.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-07-23 12:04pm

Actually, did the Mon Cals donate their whole fleet or not really? Perhaps they kept their older cruisers while gave the Alliance the newer and better upgraded ones?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-07-23 12:07pm

It does make sense to make a line between 'Alliance Fleet' and 'Mon Cal Fleet'. The two do not need to be one and the same. From my count; there are a mininum of 13 Mon Cal ships at Endor- 3 Starcruisers, 8 wingless, and 2 Libertys.

While this is a fairly big taskforce, it's hardly a 'Fleet' even for a planet like Mon Cal, who latter supplies a vast majority of the NR cruiser force. The Alliance may have just recieved this taskforce to fight the Empire or perhaps it was the taskforce that Ackbar himself commnaded at the time Mon Cal decided to join the Alliance and transfered his command to the rebels.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2006-07-23 04:54pm

StarshipTitanic wrote:The shields aren't going back up because the entire Rebel fleet is hammering the Executor. The ship gets torn apart from turbolaser fire.

As I understood the event in question, the combined firepower from all the cruisers the rebels had pointed at the Executor where just enough to down the bridge shields, never mind the rest of the ships shields.

And we know from other sources (in this case the old unreliable EGWT, but I haven't seen the principle here contradicted in any newer media) that when shields are about to be burnt out, that is their energy sinks are about to overload, there are fuses that burn out and thus preventing a catastrophic overload of the shield systems. These fuses can be replaced in minutes by technicans IIRC and during those minutes the ship will be without shields but it's energy sinks can atleast use the time to dissipate the energy.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2006-07-29 06:52pm

Speaking of the Executor and the A-Wing, I've always felt that the guy was going on an attack run in the trench against some unrelated part of the Executor, but his craft got hit and crippled by a turbolaser blast, and he was in an uncontrolled spiral that happened to intersect the bridge. You don't scream like that if you're deliberately kamikazing.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-07-29 07:08pm

Well you might scream but I'd expect it to be something coherent, like 'UP YOURS!' or 'ASSIMILATE THIS' or something to that effect

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-07-29 07:16pm

He does get hit by something in that trench. Definitely not kamikaze.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2006-07-30 03:53am

VT-16 wrote:But, according to the OS Databank on the Rebel Alliance:
While history has recorded much of the activities of the core group of Rebels attached the Alliance High Command, the efforts of the many sector groups scattered throughout the galaxy should not go forgotten. These groups, the Sector Forces, proceeded with feint attacks, spreading the Emperor's forces thin, and giving the heart of the Alliance time to regroup and develop its final thrust against Palpatine.
So, either way, it can't have been the entire Alliance. And I still fail to see the logic in having the entire Mon Calamari Navy on this mission, leaving Mon Cal open to attack. Unless that defensive fleet isn't considered as part of the Alliance.

1.) Nothing about that says that these Sector Force attacks were happening while Endor was being undertaken. These were preliminiary feints, designed to keep the Imperial Starfleet "spread throughout the galaxy in a vain effort to engage us." BEFORE the battle.

2.) The article is clearly addressing the hero worship in the Rebellion associated around the Skywalker/Solo/Calrissian/Antilles group and their leaders Ackbar and Mothma.

3.) The reference that Endor included EVERY SINGLE REBEL is made explicitly in the ROTJ novelisation, and its canon authority exceeds that of the Databank, which I believe is also factually unreliable as a source, given it still contains the 120 km Death Star I and Leland Chee personally has noted that the current content of the Databank does not necessarily reflect the current status of canon in SW.

4.) Given 1, 2, 3, and with special emphasis to higher canon authority of the ROTJ novelisation, the best interpretations of canon will agree with the novelisation's assertion of EVERY LAST REBEL and accomodate the former with preliminary attacks designed to disperse the Emperor's forces before the battle. The OS Databank certainly does not compell us to assume the ROTJ novelisation is somehow mistaken or confused.