Hitting your kids

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-07-13 09:00pm

I was in line at the DMV today, and saw a father (I assume) hit his daughter. She was no more than two years old, and sitting on the ground. He told her to get off the ground, twice. When she didn't comply, he picked her up and hit her very hard on the backside. Needless to say, she started crying. He then proceeded to tell her to, 'shut the hell up'.

A few minutes later, she calmed down. A few minutes after that, she dropped her empty box of animal crackers on the ground, and he said, 'what did I tell you about throwing things?' She started to cry, and he put his hand over her face so she wouldn't make any sound - it was a little disturbing.

After 20 minutes of nothing really happening, he put her back on the ground (I was there for 2 1/2 hours). He 'asked' her to come back to him, and grabbed her arm. Apparently, she 'resisted' him. He said, 'don't pull, who do you think you are?'

After that, his number was called and he did whatever he was there to do.

That's absolutely not acceptable, in my view. I wanted to say something to the guy, but I wasn't sure if it was approprioate. He was about my height and build, but I walk with a cain (badly damaged hip) and couldn't get away from anyone if they came at me. He didn't seem like the kind of guy who would have just said, 'oh sorry - didn't realize I'd hit her'. What should I have done in that situation? I WISH I'd taken movies of it with my phone, and then called the cops.

What should I have done? What would you have done?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-13 09:53pm

Holy shit. That's extremely abusive. And a very tough situation to be in.

This guy's clearly willing to beat his kid in front of a hundred people, so shaming him probably wouldn't work. I can't think of anything else you could have reasonably done, aside from notifying a cop or someone if one was around. That sounds like a dangerous guy. I doubt he would have physically threatened you right there, but you just never know with people like that.

If I'd seen this, I probably would have done nothing, like you. And I would have hated myself for it, but without being in any kind of position to help that poor child I can't see how intervention would help. At best, he would have stopped hitting her there and started smacking her around again in the car.

I wish I had something more for you, and I hope someone else has a better idea.

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-07-13 10:03pm

It was a very tough spot to be in. Don't worry about not having any advice - it's not an easy question to answer. What right do I have to alter someone's lift? Maybe a little bit, maybe a lot, maybe none.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2006-07-13 10:55pm

Some people are assholes, and there's not really a whole hell of a lot you can do about it. As far as hitting your kids goes, you shouldn't do it over minor things, like sitting on the floor. I can't imagine a 2-year old really straying too terribly far from mommy and daddy in an unfamiliar place.

blink

at the DMV you say? as in Department of Motor Vehicles? I'm surprised nobody said anything at all.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-07-13 11:10pm

Very tough call. Challenge him in public and he doesn't do anything to you about it, he's liable to take it out on the kid later.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-07-13 11:26pm

Too bad you didn't any of his personal information. I would've called some authority figure. With an entire store-ful of people as witnesses, he couldn't deny his abuse, and anyone who payed an inkling of attention would be able to clearly describe the actions he took.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2006-07-13 11:41pm

Doesn't the DMV have cameras? If you really wanted to get involved, it might be on tape. If you know the time and everything, they might be able to find the guy.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-07-13 11:47pm

Because of the child's age, I find it unacceptable, public or no. The action of 'sitting on the floor' does not condone that, nor does the dropping of a box.

If the child was older and what she did was worse, than the hitting on the bottom thing would be more acceptable, albeit in the privacy of your own home.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2006-07-14 12:18am

actually I think that hitting kids is more effective when they are younger since pain is sometimes the only thing that they will respond too. As they get older you should phase out hitting in exchange for other punishments.

I actually don't see this as being that abusive. He hit her on the back side... how are you able to tell it was extremely hard? Besides that nothing wrong. He covered her mouth because she's being noisy and disturbing everyone. She threw something on the ground and he told her not to do that and she busts out crying. I don't see him saying 'don't pull, who do you think you are?' as being abusive. Did I miss something? Don't tell me your parents never told you to shut up or anything.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-07-14 12:59am

ArmorPierce wrote:actually I think that hitting kids is more effective when they are younger since pain is sometimes the only thing that they will respond too. As they get older you should phase out hitting in exchange for other punishments.

You're a fucking retard. At that age they can barely understand why they're being hit. All they learn is to fear daddy.

If anything, I've found that parents who hit their kids early end up with the brattiest kids, not the best-behaved kids. All you do is desensitize them to physical and emotional violence.

I actually don't see this as being that abusive. He hit her on the back side... how are you able to tell it was extremely hard? Besides that nothing wrong. He covered her mouth because she's being noisy and disturbing everyone. She threw something on the ground and he told her not to do that and she busts out crying. I don't see him saying 'don't pull, who do you think you are?' as being abusive. Did I miss something? Don't tell me your parents never told you to shut up or anything.

She's a fucking two year old! Have you ever had a two year old child?

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2006-07-14 01:06am

Darth Wong wrote: She's a fucking two year old, retard. Have you ever had a two year old child?

I wouldn't bother asking this guy a resonable question on this. He proved he doesn't want to have a reasonable disscusion about this. He obviously has the same problems as the parent in question to think so alike. I have to admit it scares me that there are more of them around.

Post by **Simplicius** » 2006-07-14 01:08am

ArmorPierce wrote:I actually don't see this as being that abusive. He hit her on the back side... how are you able to tell it was extremely hard? Besides that nothing wrong. He covered her mouth because she's being noisy and disturbing everyone. She threw something on the ground and he told her not to do that and she busts out crying. I don't see him saying 'don't pull, who do you think you are?' as being abusive. Did I miss something? Don't tell me your parents never told you to shut up or anything.

A small child is going to be bored as fuck waiting in a DMV line and that was what the father was punishing: mere boredom. A read of the scenario as presented suggests that the father was taking his own impatience at waiting in line out on his child, which is an irresponsible lapse even if we allow our judgment of him to remain otherwise neutral.

Consider the child's action, and his response:

Sitting on the ground => eventual spanking; indifference
Crying (precipitated by spanking) => reprimand
Dropping a box of crackers => reprimand
Crying (precipitated by reprimand) => smothering her cries with his hand
Sitting on ground where she was placed => reprimand, pulling

We see a series of trifling actions on the part of a child as a result of boredom, and the father responding physically to those actions three times out of five - a gross excess, given the context.

What did the little girl do that was actually wrong and deserving of discipline? Nothing. Even the crying, which a parent might ordinary seek to end, was caused directly by an unnecessary act on the part of the father - and one never stifles a cry by covering a child's mouth. If the people in line have to listen to it for a while, tough shit for them.

The father responded phsyically in a manner totally inappropriate to the situation. His general attitude was one of irritation and indifference, rather than one of concern. He may have been standing in a DMV line, but since his child was present it was his responsibility to alter his behavior accordingly, rather than use her as an outlet for his own irritation. A better parent might have tried to entertain the child, alleviating both her boredom and his own, rather than making the situation worse like this asshat did.

In short, all the evidence suggests that he's a poor parent, and that you're a moron.

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2006-07-14 03:30am

If I where in you place I would have called the police and child services on his ass.

Damn child abusers makes my blood boil, they are only slightly above pedofiles on my needs a good stoning and burning at the stake hatelist.

And ArmorPierce you are on my personal shitlist from now on.

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-07-14 04:02am

ArmorPierce wrote:actually I think that hitting kids is more effective when they are younger since pain is sometimes the only thing that they will respond too. As they get older you should phase out hitting in exchange for other punishments.

They respond to good parenting, and good parenting doesn't necessarily equate to pain. Positive reinforcement, in my experience, has proven to be more effective than it's antithesis.

I actually don't see this as being that abusive. He hit her on the back side... how are you able to tell it was extremely hard? Besides that nothing wrong. He covered her mouth because she's being noisy and disturbing everyone. She threw something on the ground and he told her not to do that and she busts out crying. I don't see him saying 'don't pull, who do you think you are?' as being abusive. Did I miss something? Don't tell me your parents never told you to shut up or anything.

If I could hear the hit pretty well from 20 feet away, it was hard. My father never told me to shut up, nor did he ever hit me. My mother, on the other hand, was shitzophrenic (sp), and my father and I finally moved out, she hit my often. It's tough to really blame her, though - she was/is really mentally ill. I don't think any mentally sane person should get away with it, though.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2006-07-14 06:44am

ArmorPierce wrote:actually I think that hitting kids is more effective when they are younger since pain is sometimes the only thing that they will respond too. As they get older you should phase out hitting in exchange for other punishments.

No one in their right mind should suggest physically hitting a child as being a good way of parenting. Reinforcement (positive, no less) would be in my mind a better 'method'. As Darth Wong said, all a child is going to learn is fear. Teaching with pain is a terrible method; naturally comparing dogs and humans isn't perfectly sound, but hitting a dog when it does something wrong, as opposed to rewarding it when it does something right, will cur a dog out (or make a kid bratty).

There is something very wrong with a person who will hit their own child; nor is there any good reason to. Why exactly shouldn't a young child respond well to positive reinforcement? Why is aversion a particularly sound method parenting? Think it through; violence doesn't teach good behaviour - children learn through example after all.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-07-14 06:57am

I can see corporal punishment working on nasty teenagers over the age of 12 who can understand what's going on and are almost adults anyway, but small infants? I could remember being a small child and being somewhat violently punished by my erratic mother and some of the more irresponsible infant school teachers. And I grew up into a socially inept and bratty teenager with a nearly psychotic temper mainly because of that.

Cos Dashit · Post by **Cos Dashit** » 2006-07-14 07:03am

Darth Wong wrote:She's a fucking two year old! Have you ever had a two year old child?

Simplicius wrote:A small child is going to be bored as fuck waiting in a DMV line and that was what the father was punishing: mere boredom.

Neither of these statements are universal; my brother was 3 at the time of my visit to the DMV and he waited about an hour without misbehaving or disturbing any other people. He entertained himself without a problem; just sat on his chair and played with his toys.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2006-07-14 09:59am

^ Not universal, but a reasonable enough assumption. Who cares? You can't EXPECT a child that young to be like your brother.

at the DMV you say? as in Department of Motor Vehicles? I'm surprised nobody said anything at all.

Diffusion of responsibility. Ever heard of Kitty Genovese? Not the same situation at all, but I believe it's the same phenomenon at work.

And while I don't generally like to pile on, ArmorPierce, good god you're a douchebag.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-07-14 10:40am

ArmorPierce wrote:I actually don't see this as being that abusive. He hit her on the back side... how are you able to tell it was extremely hard? Besides that nothing wrong. He covered her mouth because she's being noisy and disturbing everyone. She threw something on the ground and he told her not to do that and she busts out crying. I don't see him saying 'don't pull, who do you think you are?' as being abusive. Did I miss something? Don't tell me your parents never told you to shut up or anything.

As a matter of fact, they didn't. The only time -- that I can remember -- I have had a parent speak abusively to me was last year, when I was being a prick about finding something and bothering my dad, and he said, "You can fucking find it yourself." At that age, I was old enough to see the humor in the situation. And when my parents spanked me, they did it in private, they always explained why I was being spanked, made sure I understood why I was being punished, and afterwards, always held me while I cried until I was done so that I understood they still loved me. This retard of a father, on the other hand, did none of those things: he explained nothing, he verbally abused his daughter, he smothered her, and he verbally abused her again. Do you really, honestly think that the child understood why she was being punished? And do you really, honestly think that his verbal and physical punishments were justified?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-07-14 10:45am

Would calling the authorities have accomplished anything? Did he actually do anything illegal?

Post by **Simplicius** » 2006-07-14 11:54am

Darth Raptor wrote:Would calling the authorities have accomplished anything? Did he actually do anything illegal?

Assuming this took place in California (based on Count Dooku's location, the CA Penal Code proivdes relevant definitions:

11165.3. As used in this article, "the willful harming or injuring
of a child or the endangering of the person or health of a child,"
means a situation in which any person willfully causes or permits any
child to suffer, or inflicts thereon, unjustifiable physical pain or
mental suffering, or having the care or custody of any child,
willfully causes or permits the person or health of the child to be
placed in a situation in which his or her person or health is
endangered.

11165.4. As used in this article, "unlawful corporal punishment or
injury" means a situation where any person willfully inflicts upon
any child any cruel or inhuman corporal punishment or injury
resulting in a traumatic condition.

11165.6. As used in this article, the term "child abuse or neglect"
includes physical injury inflicted by other than accidental means
upon a child by another person, sexual abuse as defined in Section
11165.1, neglect as defined in Section 11165.2, the willful harming
or injuring of a child or the endangering of the person or health of
a child, as defined in Section 11165.3, and unlawful corporal
punishment or injury as defined in Section 11165.4.

[Edited for brevity and relevance ~ Simplicius.]

I, personally, would think it a stretch for the father's actions to fall under these definitions. Some determined attourney may think differently, but this instance does not seem to be a clear-cut case of abuse or neglect - merely piss-poor parenting.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-07-14 01:38pm

unjustifiable physical pain or
mental suffering

This would be the relevant section of the Code, I would think. It seems to be quite undisputable that the child's actions did not warrant the subsequent punishment.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-07-14 03:25pm

wolveraptor wrote:
unjustifiable physical pain or
mental suffering
This would be the relevant section of the Code, I would think. It seems to be quite undisputable that the child's actions did not warrant the subsequent punishment.

But it's a judgment call whether they warrant criminal prosecution, and I don't think there'd be enough in this case. But it is enough to declare that he's a bad parent.

FSTargetDrone · Post by **FSTargetDrone** » 2006-07-14 04:14pm

I've seen adults behaving roughly with children out in public before, and after the first time I was pissed at myself for not doing something about it. So the next time it happened, I decided I was going to call the police, and I did.

So in this situation I would have stepped outside, called the police, wait for them to arrive and explain the situation.

There is the very real problem of this miserable bastard taking it out on the child in an even worse way when they returned home, but if he was bold enough to slap the kid around (which, from your description, is at the very least an excessively severe spanking) in public, I shudder to think what he does at home. Weighing a possible future reaction like that against what I definitely witness now, I'll go with calling the police.

Wanderer · Post by **Wanderer** » 2006-07-15 12:55pm

Why didn't the guy bring the girl's favorite toy or stuffed animal? If you are heading to the DMV with young kids, you should bring one toy at least for them. When go, I let my kid play so long as they don't endanger themselves. If they misbehave, I simply hold on to them till they chill out.